Fisher: Raptors are still shopping RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley

[ash_k]

Y'all Realgmers are really something...dont be fooled by the recent "injuries": Getting 2x20pts-scorers for OG both younger remains a steal.
A player that almost averaged a triple-double against Tatum, Brown and White at 24 will not be given 'away'.
In our current state, freshly post-Masai, it would make no sense to trade him as he is the only sure thing at the moment. Scottie was Masai's guy and vice-versa. Masai was the one hyping IQ as the cornerstone with Scottie.

IQ is a solid option. He's a league-average-ish efficiency scorer in the high teens who can stick above-break 3s and is a decent passer who can also play off-ball. That's quite useful to us, and was a good get if he can stay healthy.

RJ... needs to fix a bunch of things before his volume becomes THAT relevant, but he does provide rim pressure, can stick it from the right corner, improved as a playmaker and sucks less as a defender. Does that mean we shouldn't be looking to see if we can leverage him for something better? No, but I agree, he's not someone to toss away. And if we can get him back into the 70s at the line, maybe we'll have something better to work with.

What is something better than a player that is already doing 20|5|5|50FG% and just turned 25(and improving) ? we would be looking at Jaylen Brown-type(4 years older than RJ).
RJ should be one of the cornerstones "until playoff performances say otherwise".(But he has already averaged 20ppg in Playoffs Semi-finals under the New York lights)

[tsherkin]

What is something better than a player that is already doing 20|5|5|50FG% and just turned 25(and improving) ? we would be looking at Jaylen Brown-type(4 years older than RJ).

Probably someone who doesn't score 3% worse than league-average efficiency and is more capable as a primary on-ball slasher. And he shot 46.8% for us this season. The 30-odd games of him shooting that insane percentage right after the trade aren't really representative at all.

You have this idea that his volume is worthwhile, but we do need it to be viable by way of efficiency before it starts to REALLY matter. You can't have an inefficient player front your volume load, or you're just giving games away.

That said, the question of what we could get for him is an interesting one. I don't know the answer. The idea is more that we should be open to moving him if there is a reasonable package available. I know that the finances of his contract aren't terribly appealing, which may factor in as well.

But yeah, from an impact standpoint, once you get past "RAAAAAAH TWENTY POINTS PER GAME," RJ's value isn't exactly stunning right now. I'm not in favor of tossing him away because he's the ONLY guy we have who provides any sort of rim pressure that isn't from a rim-rolling big, though, so there's something we have to ponder before trading him, for sure.

[DreamTeam09]

It's a shoulder, not an achilles.

I would probably rank his value ahead of Scottie when considering he will be paid 28m in AAV over the next 4 seasons vs 45m in AAV over the next 5 seasons.

Trey Murphy hasn't done anything in his career Besides have a couple got stretches each szn before going down with some sort of injury.
Guys like Trey Murphy get out on a pedestal while our players by our own fans are chopped liver. Like Murphy is good, he hasn't shown/done anything consistently yet

And what has Scottie done? Make an All-Star game as a replacement?

Murphy is highly valued because he's locked in on a great contract and took a big jump in his offensive game last season in addition to being an athletic 6"8 plus defender that can make 3's at a high rate. He is plug and play on literally any championship team and probably slots in as a 3rd option at worst on all of them.

Until you know, he injures himself again. You haven't seen Trey in any sort of meaningful games, how is he plug & play, I mean the theory sounds cute, but that's it at the moment, hot flashes of theoretical production.

[ash_k]

The OG trade already looks bad. I don’t think we need to make a move or non move with RJ just to save face on that trade. We need to move RJ because of flexibility.

Y'all Realgmers are really something...dont be fooled by the recent "injuries": Getting 2x20pts-scorers for OG both younger remains a steal.
A player that almost averaged a triple-double against Tatum, Brown and White at 24 will not be given 'away'.
In our current state, freshly post-Masai, it would make no sense to trade him as he is the only sure thing at the moment. Scottie was Masai's guy and vice-versa. Masai was the one hyping IQ as the cornerstone with Scottie.

RJ was viewed by many NYK fans as addition by subtraction, a guy who puts up good stats but doesn't contribute to winning. Indeed NYK has had better team results with OG starting instead of RJ. IQ was not a starter for the Knicks and while we hope he becomes more than 6th man, it remains to be seen. Overall, It was a fair trade given OG was in his contract year but not a steal by any stretch.

As for making sense or not to trade RJ now, keep in mind his contract ends in 2027, so next summer is his contract year. Unless you believe RJ's best value is as an expiring contract, do we want to repeat past mistakes and wait until players are in their final contract year to trade him?

Definitely is a steal. OG was just the perfect fit for Thibs with his defense and corner 3 and just overall physicality. While RJ's talent was restrained by Hogs like Brunson and Randle. IQ was a 20pt scorer as a starter replacing Brunson and beloved by the Knicks fan.
If someone would have told you you would be getting a younger 20|5|5|50FG% player + a younger 17|5|4|40 3PT%(while at about 70% of his capacities) for OG you would have laughed-in-disbelief your way to accepting that trade

[PushDaRock]

Behind who? RJ is traded, and he's better than Ochai, Dick, and JaKobe.

ahhh so you think all of our younger players are trash

Um no. You said Ellis would be buried behind those guys when he's clearly the better player. If you want to argue that Ochai or Dick are better players, be my guest.

He's playing 25 mpg there, he would likely be playing right around the same here if not less.

[PushDaRock]

Trey Murphy hasn't done anything in his career Besides have a couple got stretches each szn before going down with some sort of injury.
Guys like Trey Murphy get out on a pedestal while our players by our own fans are chopped liver. Like Murphy is good, he hasn't shown/done anything consistently yet

And what has Scottie done? Make an All-Star game as a replacement?

Murphy is highly valued because he's locked in on a great contract and took a big jump in his offensive game last season in addition to being an athletic 6"8 plus defender that can make 3's at a high rate. He is plug and play on literally any championship team and probably slots in as a 3rd option at worst on all of them.

Until you know, he injures himself again. You haven't seen Trey in any sort of meaningful games, how is he plug & play, I mean the theory sounds cute, but that's it at the moment, hot flashes of theoretical production.

yeah just sounds cute I guess, nice to have fantasies.

[Dalek]

Y'all Realgmers are really something...dont be fooled by the recent "injuries": Getting 2x20pts-scorers for OG both younger remains a steal.
A player that almost averaged a triple-double against Tatum, Brown and White at 24 will not be given 'away'.
In our current state, freshly post-Masai, it would make no sense to trade him as he is the only sure thing at the moment. Scottie was Masai's guy and vice-versa. Masai was the one hyping IQ as the cornerstone with Scottie.

IQ is a solid option. He's a league-average-ish efficiency scorer in the high teens who can stick above-break 3s and is a decent passer who can also play off-ball. That's quite useful to us, and was a good get if he can stay healthy.

RJ... needs to fix a bunch of things before his volume becomes THAT relevant, but he does provide rim pressure, can stick it from the right corner, improved as a playmaker and sucks less as a defender. Does that mean we shouldn't be looking to see if we can leverage him for something better? No, but I agree, he's not someone to toss away. And if we can get him back into the 70s at the line, maybe we'll have something better to work with.

What is something better than a player that is already doing 20|5|5|50FG% and just turned 25(and improving) ? we would be looking at Jaylen Brown-type(4 years older than RJ).
RJ should be one of the cornerstones "until playoff performances say otherwise".(But he has already averaged 20ppg in Playoffs Semi-finals under the New York lights)

RJ is a cornerstone? No, and it is mainly because you know his next contract likely pushes Toronto to a second apron and we also have to think about extensions for Dick and Walter who both can surpass RJ's level of play.

RJ has been 6 years in the league and he benefitted from Darko's system which played to his strengths. This is the best time to cash in while his value is at an all-time high. Otherwise you get stuck in a Jeremy Grant situation where you end up stuck with a guy on a long deal that is hard to move.

It is great that RJ gets to the rim but we also have Scottie Barnes and CMB that can do similar things as wing/forwards. Not to mention Walter and Quickley also wanting to drive the ball. Waiting until the playoffs for some type of proof seems like a poor plan. If he fails to perform then the value really plummets.

[OakleyDokely]

24/25, above the break 3pt% (min 6 attempts)
*33 players qualify*

1. Lavine: 44.1%
2. Powell: 42.6%
3. Pritchard: 40.3%
4. Edwards: 39.5%
5. Haliburton: 39.1%
6. Curry: 38.8%
7. Beasley: 38.7%
8. Poole: 38.4%
9. Irving: 38.3%
10. Quickley: 37.7%
11. Lillard: 37.7%
12. McCollum: 37.6%
13. C White: 37.4%
14. D White: 37.3%
15. Reeves: 36.9%
16. Doncic: 36.8%
17. Simons: 36.7%
18. Miller: 36.5%
19. Herro: 36.5%
20. Thomas: 36.5%
21. Mitchell: 35.9%
22. Wembanyama: 35.9%
23. VanVleet: 35.4%
24. Green: 35.1%
25. Harden: 35.0%
26. Ball: 34.6%
27. Maxey: 34.2%
28. Murphy III: 34.1%
29. Tatum: 33.7%
30. Young: 33.3%
31. Markkanen: 33.2%
32. Booker: 33.0%
33. George: 31.9%



IQ shot 42% on 5 attempts in 23/24.

[MoneyBall]

ahhh so you think all of our younger players are trash

Um no. You said Ellis would be buried behind those guys when he's clearly the better player. If you want to argue that Ochai or Dick are better players, be my guest.

He's playing 25 mpg there, he would likely be playing right around the same here if not less.

He'd be a starter, and a better one than anyone we currently have. Again, which one of those guys is better than Ellis?

[PushDaRock]

IQ is a solid option. He's a league-average-ish efficiency scorer in the high teens who can stick above-break 3s and is a decent passer who can also play off-ball. That's quite useful to us, and was a good get if he can stay healthy.

RJ... needs to fix a bunch of things before his volume becomes THAT relevant, but he does provide rim pressure, can stick it from the right corner, improved as a playmaker and sucks less as a defender. Does that mean we shouldn't be looking to see if we can leverage him for something better? No, but I agree, he's not someone to toss away. And if we can get him back into the 70s at the line, maybe we'll have something better to work with.

What is something better than a player that is already doing 20|5|5|50FG% and just turned 25(and improving) ? we would be looking at Jaylen Brown-type(4 years older than RJ).
RJ should be one of the cornerstones "until playoff performances say otherwise".(But he has already averaged 20ppg in Playoffs Semi-finals under the New York lights)

RJ is a cornerstone? No, and it is mainly because you know his next contract likely pushes Toronto to a second apron and we also have to think about extensions for Dick and Walter who both can surpass RJ's level of play.

RJ has been 6 years in the league and he benefitted from Darko's system which played to his strengths. This is the best time to cash in while his value is at an all-time high. Otherwise you get stuck in a Jeremy Grant situation where you end up stuck with a guy on a long deal that is hard to move.

It is great that RJ gets to the rim but we also have Scottie Barnes and CMB that can do similar things as wing/forwards. Not to mention Walter and Quickley also wanting to drive the ball. Waiting until the playoffs for some type of proof seems like a poor plan. If he fails to perform then the value really plummets.

What exactly are we cashing in on? Do you think teams right now view the 2 years left on his deal as a positive or a negative?

[ash_k]

What is something better than a player that is already doing 20|5|5|50FG% and just turned 25(and improving) ? we would be looking at Jaylen Brown-type(4 years older than RJ).

But yeah, from an impact standpoint, once you get past "RAAAAAAH TWENTY POINTS PER GAME," RJ's value isn't exactly stunning right now. I'm not in favor of tossing him away because he's the ONLY guy we have who provides any sort of rim pressure that isn't from a rim-rolling big, though, so there's something we have to ponder before trading him, for sure.

Once you get past the 20 points, you got yourself a multi-dimensional player as a Playmaker/scorer
The 3pt shot is not the be-all end-all, RJ is one of the few doing 5+as|5+rbs|20+pts|50FG% at that age.

I personally want to see RJ+Scottie+BI together knowing how RJ likes to spot up on that 3 and he is our best transition scorer too. A lot of talent with those 3 with all of them improving.

[PushDaRock]

Um no. You said Ellis would be buried behind those guys when he's clearly the better player. If you want to argue that Ochai or Dick are better players, be my guest.

He's playing 25 mpg there, he would likely be playing right around the same here if not less.

He'd be a starter, and a better one than anyone we currently have. Again, which one of those guys is better than Ellis?

He started games in SAC as well, the point is his role here wouldn't be much different than it is there.

[tsherkin]

Once you get past the 20 points, you got yourself a multi-dimensional player as a Playmaker/scorer

The playmaker was nice. The scoring was not, nor is the 3ball the be-all end-all of anything.

It's relevant to note that RJ was horrifically inefficient last year, and 3pt shooting wasn't the main thing inhibiting his performance. There are legitimate concerns about him in a higher-usage role which can't be handwaved away due to his volume output.

Ideally, as I've said many times before, we have to see what he does in the early season and where that takes us. If it's more of the same, then we need to start thinking about moving on from him if the right deal comes along. But his offensive impact is pretty limp, albeit mildly net-positive.

[Dalek]

What is something better than a player that is already doing 20|5|5|50FG% and just turned 25(and improving) ? we would be looking at Jaylen Brown-type(4 years older than RJ).
RJ should be one of the cornerstones "until playoff performances say otherwise".(But he has already averaged 20ppg in Playoffs Semi-finals under the New York lights)

RJ is a cornerstone? No, and it is mainly because you know his next contract likely pushes Toronto to a second apron and we also have to think about extensions for Dick and Walter who both can surpass RJ's level of play.

RJ has been 6 years in the league and he benefitted from Darko's system which played to his strengths. This is the best time to cash in while his value is at an all-time high. Otherwise you get stuck in a Jeremy Grant situation where you end up stuck with a guy on a long deal that is hard to move.

It is great that RJ gets to the rim but we also have Scottie Barnes and CMB that can do similar things as wing/forwards. Not to mention Walter and Quickley also wanting to drive the ball. Waiting until the playoffs for some type of proof seems like a poor plan. If he fails to perform then the value really plummets.

What exactly are we cashing in on? Do you think teams right now view the 2 years left on his deal as a positive or a negative?

He is not an expiring deal and coming off the best scoring season of his career efficiency-wise. I do think teams see value in RJ if they have room for a future deal with him.

The Kings seem ideal because of the Scott Perry connection - he drafted RJ in NY.

Brooklyn and Washington have capacity and need for a player like RJ.

Maybe the Bucks would take a swing thinking he can replace some of the lost guard play they had from Lillard.

[MoneyBall]

He's playing 25 mpg there, he would likely be playing right around the same here if not less.

He'd be a starter, and a better one than anyone we currently have. Again, which one of those guys is better than Ellis?

He started games in SAC as well, the point is his role here wouldn't be much different than it is there.

He started those games due to injuries, not because he's their #1 SG. He would be our #1 SG with the strong possibility of getting more than 24mpg. His role would definitely change.

[ash_k]

Once you get past the 20 points, you got yourself a multi-dimensional player as a Playmaker/scorer

It's relevant to note that RJ was horrifically inefficient last year, and 3pt shooting wasn't the main thing inhibiting his performance. There are legitimate concerns about him in a higher-usage role which can't be handwaved away due to his volume output.

Volume or not, his talent guarantees 20pts, no matter what and that's where it starts. He plays even better at home.
Next step is how does that look with BI, Scottie and Yak? They all like to pass it thus it should be a great fit.. just a great level of talent.

What are those legitimate concerns for someone improving everyday that just turned 25 and that has already averaged 20pts in Conference Semi-Finals?Look at the TOP30 scorers, so all of them are almost untouchable except Norm ...and somehow RJ(for what exactly at just 25?).
If he is indeed on the market(TBC?), I am very curious to see what we get back for him(had we gotten BI for him, it would have made sense to me), however trading him at this stage would be a mistake.

[TheGeneral99]

Once you get past the 20 points, you got yourself a multi-dimensional player as a Playmaker/scorer

The playmaker was nice. The scoring was not, nor is the 3ball the be-all end-all of anything.

It's relevant to note that RJ was horrifically inefficient last year, and 3pt shooting wasn't the main thing inhibiting his performance. There are legitimate concerns about him in a higher-usage role which can't be handwaved away due to his volume output.

Ideally, as I've said many times before, we have to see what he does in the early season and where that takes us. If it's more of the same, then we need to start thinking about moving on from him if the right deal comes along. But his offensive impact is pretty limp, albeit mildly net-positive.

Is shooting 47%fg and 35%3fg horrifically inefficient on a guy taking 17 shots a game? His biggest issue was free throws were he shot 63% for some odd reason.

[Tripod]

I hope we do nothing...let these guys play together and go from there.

Some want a deal just to make a deal. There is no rush.

[tsherkin]

Is shooting 47%fg and 35%3fg horrifically inefficient on a guy taking 17 shots a game? His biggest issue was free throws were he shot 63% for some odd reason.

Yes. There is a reason we use metrics other than just raw FG% and such. Had he shot 75% at the line (which isn't really his level of proficiency), he would have been at 56.3% TS, which is still -1.3% rTS. Bad, but not as profoundly awful.

[
Volume or not, his talent guarantees 20pts, no matter what and that's where it starts.

And?

There is no inherent value to volume. That is an old and fallacious view. We were a horrific offense for a reason. For many reasons, really, but relying on inefficient scorers was one of them. RJ and Scottie definitely tanked the offense with their scoring, precisely BECAUSE we leaned on them for volume.

What are those legitimate concerns for someone improving everyday that just turned 25 and that has already averaged 20pts in Conference Semi-Finals?

All of that is immaterial.

[Dr Positivity]

I think Barrett for Kuzma is looking likely.