Shams: Cleveland and Boston have agreement on deal to send Kyrie Irving to the Celtics for Isaiah Thomas package to Cavs

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Regardless of Kyrie taking the next type as a leader/player, and how a motivated Crowder and IT perform with a guy like LeBron by their side, I will evaluate this trade on where this pick lands. BKN struggling out of the gate makes the Cavs a dangerous threat at the trade deadline to acquire another star. Even if the pick lands in the 6-10 range, it's still a tradable asset that Cleveland can package with an expiring like Frye to get someone of value. Boston giving up this pick will always bother me.

Furthermore, by giving up Crowder, you are asking a lot of a rookie Ojeleye to fill the void Crowder's departure has now created and you are also asking Jaylen Brown to take a massive leap this coming season. Huge risk for the Celtics.

Hayward fills the void of Crowder's departure(x10). Then there's Morris, Brown, and Tatum before you even bring Ojelaye into the equation.

This. Plus, FWIW, Cleveland wanted one of the 2018 Nets pick/Lakers pick/Tatum and left it to Ainge to choose. Ainge chose to give them the Nets pick. That leads me to believe that he doesn't think that pick will be as high. We'll see if he's right.

Kind of funny how this board ridiculed Ainge for not giving up the farm for Butler/George/Cousins etc, but the second he gives up good assets, he has now overpaid. Lol

[ForeverTFC]

Disappointing for as good as Ainge is as a GM his master plan ends up being Irving and Hayward. That's a good team, likely a finals team next year if LeBron leaves the East (since there are no other really good teams in the conference) but seems like it could have been a whole lot better. The upgrade to Irving from Thomas isn't great enough to justify losing the Nets pick plus Crowder.

A Irving/Hayward pairing isn't scaring anyone. I do think they overachieved last year so they'll improve, but not enough to exceed last year's performance. There's a clear trio of Toronto/Wash/Boston in the east that is very evenly matched.

Ainge screwed up, and I don't understand how Celtics fans refuse to even question that. In a span of half a year, Butler, George, Porzingis, Irving, Cousins all became available. The Celtics with all their assets walked away from likely the worst and orsecond worst of these players. He should have gotten one of George or Butler, there's no other way around it.

[Throwback24]

Regardless of Kyrie taking the next type as a leader/player, and how a motivated Crowder and IT perform with a guy like LeBron by their side, I will evaluate this trade on where this pick lands. BKN struggling out of the gate makes the Cavs a dangerous threat at the trade deadline to acquire another star. Even if the pick lands in the 6-10 range, it's still a tradable asset that Cleveland can package with an expiring like Frye to get someone of value. Boston giving up this pick will always bother me.

Furthermore, by giving up Crowder, you are asking a lot of a rookie Ojeleye to fill the void Crowder's departure has now created and you are also asking Jaylen Brown to take a massive leap this coming season. Huge risk for the Celtics.

Hayward fills the void of Crowder's departure(x10). Then there's Morris, Brown, and Tatum before you even bring Ojelaye into the equation.

This. Plus, FWIW, Cleveland wanted one of the 2018 Nets pick/Lakers pick/Tatum and left it to Ainge to choose. Ainge chose to give them the Nets pick. That leads me to believe that he doesn't think that pick will be as high. We'll see if he's right.

Kind of funny how this board ridiculed Ainge for not giving up the farm for Butler/George/Cousins etc, but the second he gives up good assets, he has now overpaid. Lol

They'll change their tune when the Celtics-raptors play their first game of the year, with no CoJo on the roster they'll quickly be reminded about who Kyrie is.

[NetsDynasty2012]

Hayward fills the void of Crowder's departure(x10). Then there's Morris, Brown, and Tatum before you even bring Ojelaye into the equation.

This. Plus, FWIW, Cleveland wanted one of the 2018 Nets pick/Lakers pick/Tatum and left it to Ainge to choose. Ainge chose to give them the Nets pick. That leads me to believe that he doesn't think that pick will be as high. We'll see if he's right.

Kind of funny how this board ridiculed Ainge for not giving up the farm for Butler/George/Cousins etc, but the second he gives up good assets, he has now overpaid. Lol

They'll change their tune when the Celtics-raptors play their first game of the year, with no CoJo on the roster they'll quickly be reminded about who Kyrie is.

lol

[Moose23]

Disappointing for as good as Ainge is as a GM his master plan ends up being Irving and Hayward. That's a good team, likely a finals team next year if LeBron leaves the East (since there are no other really good teams in the conference) but seems like it could have been a whole lot better. The upgrade to Irving from Thomas isn't great enough to justify losing the Nets pick plus Crowder.

A Irving/Hayward pairing isn't scaring anyone. I do think they overachieved last year so they'll improve, but not enough to exceed last year's performance. There's a clear trio of Toronto/Wash/Boston in the east that is very evenly matched.

Ainge screwed up, and I don't understand how Celtics fans refuse to even question that. In a span of half a year, Butler, George, Porzingis, Irving, Cousins all became available. The Celtics with all their assets walked away from likely the worst and orsecond worst of these players. He should have gotten one of George or Butler, there's no other way around it.

Asking price was way to high on butler. The rest is all speculation.

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Disappointing for as good as Ainge is as a GM his master plan ends up being Irving and Hayward. That's a good team, likely a finals team next year if LeBron leaves the East (since there are no other really good teams in the conference) but seems like it could have been a whole lot better. The upgrade to Irving from Thomas isn't great enough to justify losing the Nets pick plus Crowder.

A Irving/Hayward pairing isn't scaring anyone. I do think they overachieved last year so they'll improve, but not enough to exceed last year's performance. There's a clear trio of Toronto/Wash/Boston in the east that is very evenly matched.

Ainge screwed up, and I don't understand how Celtics fans refuse to even question that. In a span of half a year, Butler, George, Porzingis, Irving, Cousins all became available. The Celtics with all their assets walked away from likely the worst and orsecond worst of these players. He should have gotten one of George or Butler, there's no other way around it.

Cousins was never an option for Boston. Bad locker room guy.
Celtics tried for Butler, but the Bulls wanted too much in each instance.
Celtics had the best offer for George (Bradley, Crowder, 3 1st round picks), but Indy refused to trade him within the EC.
Celtics asked for Porzingis, Knicks wanted 2017 3rd pick, 2018 Nets pick, Jaylen Brown and Jae Crowder. Lol

Considering the fact that this rebuild started in 2013, I'm pretty happy with a core of Kyrie/Hayward/Horford/Brown/Tatum/Smart, along with the fact that the Cs still have the Lakers/Kings pick, Grizzlies pick, Clippers pick, as well as all of their first rounders.

[Poetry-In-Motion]

Can't get Hayward if they make that deal in June since taking on Butler would have eaten into their cap space then.

Incorrect. Not impossible. Smart, Bradley (traded anyways), Crowder (traded anyways), BKN 2018 Unprotected Pick, and Jaylen Brown for Jimmy Butler works and makes space to sign Hayward to a max deal, and still keeping IT and drafting Markelle Fultz.

Bulls only approached the Celtics for the 2018 Nets pick after they had made the trade with Philly. And Ainge sure as hell wasn't going to give up Bradley, Crowder and Brown for Butler. That's what the Bulls demanded in 2016 at the draft for him (3rd pick, not Brown).

Bulls only settled on asking for the 2018 Nets pick when it became apparent in June that they wanted to start their rebuild.

My argument is that the Celtics had the opportunity to sign Hayward to the max, trade for Butler, and draft Fultz. We both agree on the 2018 Nets Pick being discussed for Butler in early June, and therefore, they were able to make a deal central on that pick and not the 2017 Pick. Ainge "sure as hell" not giving up on Bradley, Crowder, and Brown for Butler is irrelevant to the point. All I am saying is that they had the the opportunity to sign Hayward to the max, trade for Butler, and draft Fultz.

By the way, the only difference between what actually occurred is that Jaylen Brown was kept, therefore any complaints that it would be too much does not make sense to me.

Bradley was traded. Crowder was traded. Fultz was traded. Thomas was traded. The 2018 Unprotected Nets Pick was traded.

And for all of that... the Celtics got... Kyrie Irving, Tatum, Marcus Morris and the 2018 Lakers (or 2019 yada yada pick).

When we pretty much agree that Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and 2018 Nets pick for Butler would have been a for sure transaction (with Bulls maybe sending back a late future pick), and they would have still been able to make space to sign Hayward (if it is dealing Smart for relief and pick), draft Fultz, and keep Isaiah Thomas.

And personally, if you gave me the options of having

A) Butler, Thomas, Fultz, and Hayward

or

B) Irving, Morris, Brown, Tatum, and Smart

I am taking group A in a New York minute.

All of these hypothetical scenarios that did not happen aside, I just felt, Ainge had a below average summer in terms of trades and asset management (just for this summer). But the overall offseason will always start with an atleast an A- because they acquired Hayward for free through free agency.

I just think in terms of trades... they essentially traded Fultz, Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, Bradley, and the 2018 Unprotected Nets Pick for Irving, Morris, Tatum, and the 2018 Lakers (or 2019 yada yada pick) which I think is paying $2 for $1. And there were scenarios for better players for a cheaper price (in terms of assets) just two and a half months ago. I do understand though there would be a point where Ainge would probably have to give up more assets than he should just based on the clutter of assets he has.

But I get your views if you like the trade... I ain't going down a rabbit hole further. I think Boston gave up way too much for what they got back.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Among 551 guards all-time to play >= 200 total PO mins, Kyrie is 45th in TS%, IT was 115th.

Among 195 Gs who played >= 200 total PO mins, he was 14th in TS%, IT was 48th.

Those are pretty good numbers for Kyrie.

I dont think it means much given the differing roles, and systems, but thought it was worth posting.

Edit: Also theres this.

Read on Twitter

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Incorrect. Not impossible. Smart, Bradley (traded anyways), Crowder (traded anyways), BKN 2018 Unprotected Pick, and Jaylen Brown for Jimmy Butler works and makes space to sign Hayward to a max deal, and still keeping IT and drafting Markelle Fultz.

Bulls only approached the Celtics for the 2018 Nets pick after they had made the trade with Philly. And Ainge sure as hell wasn't going to give up Bradley, Crowder and Brown for Butler. That's what the Bulls demanded in 2016 at the draft for him (3rd pick, not Brown).

Bulls only settled on asking for the 2018 Nets pick when it became apparent in June that they wanted to start their rebuild.

My argument is that the Celtics had the opportunity to sign Hayward to the max, trade for Butler, and draft Fultz. We both agree on the 2018 Nets Pick being discussed for Butler in early June, and therefore, they were able to make a deal central on that pick and not the 2017 Pick. Ainge "sure as hell" not giving up on Bradley, Crowder, and Brown for Butler is irrelevant to the point. All I am saying is that they had the the opportunity to sign Hayward to the max, trade for Butler, and draft Fultz.

By the way, the only difference between what actually occurred is that Jaylen Brown was kept, therefore any complaints that it would be too much does not make sense to me.

Bradley was traded. Crowder was traded. Fultz was traded. Thomas was traded. The 2018 Unprotected Nets Pick was traded.

And for all of that... the Celtics got... Kyrie Irving, Tatum, Marcus Morris and the 2018 Lakers (or 2019 yada yada pick).

When we pretty much agree that Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and 2018 Nets pick for Butler would have been a for sure transaction (with Bulls maybe sending back a late future pick), and they would have still been able to make space to sign Hayward (if it is dealing Smart for relief and pick), draft Fultz, and keep Isaiah Thomas.

And personally, if you gave me the options of having

A) Butler, Thomas, Fultz, and Hayward

or

B) Irving, Morris, Brown, Tatum, and Smart

I am taking group A in a New York minute.

All of these hypothetical scenarios that did not happen aside, I just felt, Ainge had a below average summer in terms of trades and asset management (just for this summer). But the overall offseason will always start with an atleast an A- because they acquired Hayward for free through free agency.

I just think in terms of trades... they essentially traded Fultz, Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, Bradley, and the 2018 Unprotected Nets Pick for Irving, Morris, Tatum, and the 2018 Lakers (or 2019 yada yada pick) which I think is paying $2 for $1. And there were scenarios for better players for a cheaper price (in terms of assets) just two and a half months ago. I do understand though there would be a point where Ainge would probably have to give up more assets than he should just based on the clutter of assets he has.

But I get your views if you like the trade... I ain't going down a rabbit hole further. I think Boston gave up way too much for what they got back.

First of all, option B is incorrect, since you forgot to include Hayward.

Second of all, you're operating on the premise that the timing of these deals did not matter, which they very much did.

February, 2017 - Celtics call for Butler, but the Bulls want Crowder and the 2017 Nets pick, unprotected. Ainge counters with 2 options: The unprotected Nets pick, along with filler (expiring contract) of Amir Johnson. The other option was the Nets pick, top 2 protected, and Jae Crowder. Chicago said no to both.

Fast forward to June, 2017. Celtics trade the #1 pick for #3 and the 2018 Lakers pick (top 1, 6-30 protected). Now, the Bulls ask for the 3rd pick, or the 2018 Nets pick. Nothing else. Danny won't pull the trigger because it then eats into cap space, and he knows he has a great shot at landing Hayward. Why would you deal one of those picks for Butler when you're getting Hayward for cap space, along with Rozier. The league first announced a projected cap number of $102 million in April, 2017. At that point, Ainge figured he only had to clear Rozier to get to that max ofer. The Celtics did not know that the cap was only going to be $99 million, as the NBA did not announce this number until June 22, 2017. So again, when Chicago made this offer, the Celtics did not realize that they would actually have to part with Bradley down the road. In addition to that, Danny's first move to actually clear cap space was to shop Marcus Smart. Ainge had planned on keeping Bradley. However, when Detroit called to offer up Marcus Morris, this helped Ainge in 2 ways - it helped him get another front court player, while also clearing up enough cap space to sign Hayward.

With regards to the Nets pick - that 2018 pick is still very valuable. However, things have happened since then which have made it a little easier for Ainge to part with it. Again, Ainge now has that Lakers pick with top 1, 6-30 protection. It's possible that Ainge could still be able to draft a guy next year with that pick. The Nets pick became a little less valuable thanks to the moves the Nets have made as well. They've acquired D'eangelo Russell while getting rid of Brook Lopez. This allows them to even play more uptempo, which is what Atkinson wants, and they no longer have to wait for Lopez. They also acquired DMC (lol) and Crabbe. Those guys might not seem so great (DMC obviously), but they're still an improvement over whatever the Nets rolled out last year. Last but not least, look at the amount of talent that has gone out west. George, Butler, Teague and Milsap all mean that there is a very good chance that the Bulls, Pacers and Hawks could be tanking. Add in the Magic and the Knicks, and the East still looks very bad. The Nets have no reason to tank, but those other teams have more reason to do so.

It sucks giving up that Nets pick, because they could still be awful, but again, Ainge had his choice to keep 1 of the 2 picks, and he chose the Lakers pick. Ainge chose the safer option at this point, which is the Lakers pick. If the Nets win and the pick is 9-10, it doesn't move the needle for the Cs. If the Lakers win and their pick is 9-10, then the Celtics don't get it, but they still have a valuable asset in that Kings/Sixers pick. It also buys Ainge an extra year to trade that pick, a luxury he wouldn't have had he kept the Nets pick.

We will see if Ainge's gamble pays off, but again, I think Ainge has been spot on with his forecasting thus far.

[Poetry-In-Motion]

Bulls only approached the Celtics for the 2018 Nets pick after they had made the trade with Philly. And Ainge sure as hell wasn't going to give up Bradley, Crowder and Brown for Butler. That's what the Bulls demanded in 2016 at the draft for him (3rd pick, not Brown).

Bulls only settled on asking for the 2018 Nets pick when it became apparent in June that they wanted to start their rebuild.

My argument is that the Celtics had the opportunity to sign Hayward to the max, trade for Butler, and draft Fultz. We both agree on the 2018 Nets Pick being discussed for Butler in early June, and therefore, they were able to make a deal central on that pick and not the 2017 Pick. Ainge "sure as hell" not giving up on Bradley, Crowder, and Brown for Butler is irrelevant to the point. All I am saying is that they had the the opportunity to sign Hayward to the max, trade for Butler, and draft Fultz.

By the way, the only difference between what actually occurred is that Jaylen Brown was kept, therefore any complaints that it would be too much does not make sense to me.

Bradley was traded. Crowder was traded. Fultz was traded. Thomas was traded. The 2018 Unprotected Nets Pick was traded.

And for all of that... the Celtics got... Kyrie Irving, Tatum, Marcus Morris and the 2018 Lakers (or 2019 yada yada pick).

When we pretty much agree that Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and 2018 Nets pick for Butler would have been a for sure transaction (with Bulls maybe sending back a late future pick), and they would have still been able to make space to sign Hayward (if it is dealing Smart for relief and pick), draft Fultz, and keep Isaiah Thomas.

And personally, if you gave me the options of having

A) Butler, Thomas, Fultz, and Hayward

or

B) Irving, Morris, Brown, Tatum, and Smart

I am taking group A in a New York minute.

All of these hypothetical scenarios that did not happen aside, I just felt, Ainge had a below average summer in terms of trades and asset management (just for this summer). But the overall offseason will always start with an atleast an A- because they acquired Hayward for free through free agency.

I just think in terms of trades... they essentially traded Fultz, Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, Bradley, and the 2018 Unprotected Nets Pick for Irving, Morris, Tatum, and the 2018 Lakers (or 2019 yada yada pick) which I think is paying $2 for $1. And there were scenarios for better players for a cheaper price (in terms of assets) just two and a half months ago. I do understand though there would be a point where Ainge would probably have to give up more assets than he should just based on the clutter of assets he has.

But I get your views if you like the trade... I ain't going down a rabbit hole further. I think Boston gave up way too much for what they got back.

First of all, option B is incorrect, since you forgot to include Hayward.

Second of all, you're operating on the premise that the timing of these deals did not matter, which they very much did.

February, 2017 - Celtics call for Butler, but the Bulls want Crowder and the 2017 Nets pick, unprotected. Ainge counters with 2 options: The unprotected Nets pick, along with filler (expiring contract) of Amir Johnson. The other option was the Nets pick, top 2 protected, and Jae Crowder. Chicago said no to both.

Fast forward to June, 2017. Celtics trade the #1 pick for #3 and the 2018 Lakers pick (top 1, 6-30 protected). Now, the Bulls ask for the 3rd pick, or the 2018 Nets pick. Nothing else. Danny won't pull the trigger because it then eats into cap space, and he knows he has a great shot at landing Hayward. Why would you deal one of those picks for Butler when you're getting Hayward for cap space, along with Rozier. The league first announced a projected cap number of $102 million in April, 2017. At that point, Ainge figured he only had to clear Rozier to get to that max ofer. The Celtics did not know that the cap was only going to be $99 million, as the NBA did not announce this number until June 22, 2017. So again, when Chicago made this offer, the Celtics did not realize that they would actually have to part with Bradley down the road. In addition to that, Danny's first move to actually clear cap space was to shop Marcus Smart. Ainge had planned on keeping Bradley. However, when Detroit called to offer up Marcus Morris, this helped Ainge in 2 ways - it helped him get another front court player, while also clearing up enough cap space to sign Hayward.

With regards to the Nets pick - that 2018 pick is still very valuable. However, things have happened since then which have made it a little easier for Ainge to part with it. Again, Ainge now has that Lakers pick with top 1, 6-30 protection. It's possible that Ainge could still be able to draft a guy next year with that pick. The Nets pick became a little less valuable thanks to the moves the Nets have made as well. They've acquired D'eangelo Russell while getting rid of Brook Lopez. This allows them to even play more uptempo, which is what Atkinson wants, and they no longer have to wait for Lopez. They also acquired DMC (lol) and Crabbe. Those guys might not seem so great (DMC obviously), but they're still an improvement over whatever the Nets rolled out last year. Last but not least, look at the amount of talent that has gone out west. George, Butler, Teague and Milsap all mean that there is a very good chance that the Bulls, Pacers and Hawks could be tanking. Add in the Magic and the Knicks, and the East still looks very bad. The Nets have no reason to tank, but those other teams have more reason to do so.

It sucks giving up that Nets pick, because they could still be awful, but again, Ainge had his choice to keep 1 of the 2 picks, and he chose the Lakers pick. Ainge chose the safer option at this point, which is the Lakers pick. If the Nets win and the pick is 9-10, it doesn't move the needle for the Cs. If the Lakers win and their pick is 9-10, then the Celtics don't get it, but they still have a valuable asset in that Kings/Sixers pick. It also buys Ainge an extra year to trade that pick, a luxury he wouldn't have had he kept the Nets pick.

We will see if Ainge's gamble pays off, but again, I think Ainge has been spot on with his forecasting thus far.

I marked bolded as incorrect. Hayward is apples to apples which is why I threw in Smart to make it work cap wise in category A and B.

2018 Nets pick was nearly as desirable for Chicago which could have been central. A 2018 Nets Pick, Brown, Crowder or Bradley deal would have nabbed Butler. I cannot continue this argument if you do not get any of that.

I'm done with the rabbit hole. Have fun with your Celtics.

[Mister Ze]

This trade could be beneficial to the Raps if it becomes a lose-lose for both teams.

1. Irving and Hayward don't end up meshing well together. The Celtics defense takes a huge step back without Bradley and Crowder. They finish with under 50 wins and don't make it past the second round.

2. Isaiah Thomas's hip injury is a growing concern throughout the season, he's slower and struggles to even average 20+ PPG. Love and Lebron take an increased load offensively compared to last season. Lebron leaves during the off-season after losing in the ECF to the Wizards/Raptors. The Nets surpass expectations with a Lin-Russel front court and the projected top 5 picks falls in the 6-15 range.

Let's hope for the best (worst) Raptor fans!

[Jakeopp]

Disappointing for as good as Ainge is as a GM his master plan ends up being Irving and Hayward. That's a good team, likely a finals team next year if LeBron leaves the East (since there are no other really good teams in the conference) but seems like it could have been a whole lot better. The upgrade to Irving from Thomas isn't great enough to justify losing the Nets pick plus Crowder.

A Irving/Hayward pairing isn't scaring anyone. I do think they overachieved last year so they'll improve, but not enough to exceed last year's performance. There's a clear trio of Toronto/Wash/Boston in the east that is very evenly matched.

Ainge screwed up, and I don't understand how Celtics fans refuse to even question that. In a span of half a year, Butler, George, Porzingis, Irving, Cousins all became available. The Celtics with all their assets walked away from likely the worst and orsecond worst of these players. He should have gotten one of George or Butler, there's no other way around it.

Celtics fan here, I started out hating this trade and I'm still skeptical of it two days later.

Feels like we're banking on one of Kyrie/Brown/Tatum to become that elite alpha dog that every contender has. I don't view Kyrie as that guy and the kids have a long ways to go (and Kyrie could just leave after two years).

Big man situation is going to be a mess again this year with only Horford/Baynes capable of playing the Center position. Beyond Morris and Horford everyone at the PF position is a rookie. Fans have already declared second round pick Semi Ojeleye as the "Crowder replacement" for this year

Butler, George, Boogie or Zinger would have been a better pickup than another shoot-first no-defense PG. Especially if it allowed us to keep IT. Feels like a lateral move at a position we were already strong at, although Kyrie should be the better player going forward.

Anyways, rant over lol

[Poetry-In-Motion]

Disappointing for as good as Ainge is as a GM his master plan ends up being Irving and Hayward. That's a good team, likely a finals team next year if LeBron leaves the East (since there are no other really good teams in the conference) but seems like it could have been a whole lot better. The upgrade to Irving from Thomas isn't great enough to justify losing the Nets pick plus Crowder.

A Irving/Hayward pairing isn't scaring anyone. I do think they overachieved last year so they'll improve, but not enough to exceed last year's performance. There's a clear trio of Toronto/Wash/Boston in the east that is very evenly matched.

Ainge screwed up, and I don't understand how Celtics fans refuse to even question that. In a span of half a year, Butler, George, Porzingis, Irving, Cousins all became available. The Celtics with all their assets walked away from likely the worst and orsecond worst of these players. He should have gotten one of George or Butler, there's no other way around it.

Celtics fan here, I started out hating this trade and I'm still skeptical of it two days later.

Feels like we're banking on one of Kyrie/Brown/Tatum to become that elite alpha dog that every contender has. I don't view Kyrie as that guy and the kids have a long ways to go (and Kyrie could just leave after two years).

Big man situation is going to be a mess again this year with only Horford/Baynes capable of playing the Center position. Beyond Morris and Horford everyone at the PF position is a rookie. Fans have already declared second round pick Semi Ojeleye as the "Crowder replacement" for this year

Butler, George, Boogie or Zinger would have been a better pickup than another shoot-first no-defense PG. Especially if it allowed us to keep IT. Feels like a lateral move at a position we were already strong at, although Kyrie should be the better player going forward.

Anyways, rant over lol

Dude, off topic about the trade, I felt the same way about going back and forth with CeltsFanSinceBirth discussing it (and I am sure he or she did as well I think). Nobody is really right and nobody is really wrong. We could go by reports, or what we think was supposedly available or not available, but factually we do not know until it occurs. Even I could be wrong.

Whether you are for the trade or not, it is frustrating discussing it because it is so polarizing and so many moving pieces had occurred in the summer. Plus there is such a division when comparing the present and future of IT vs. Kyrie, and how much we value differently that 2018 BKN Pick.

One cool thing... Opening night... Celtics v. Cavs in which we can all enjoy and start to really analyze it.

[Jakeopp]

A Irving/Hayward pairing isn't scaring anyone. I do think they overachieved last year so they'll improve, but not enough to exceed last year's performance. There's a clear trio of Toronto/Wash/Boston in the east that is very evenly matched.

Ainge screwed up, and I don't understand how Celtics fans refuse to even question that. In a span of half a year, Butler, George, Porzingis, Irving, Cousins all became available. The Celtics with all their assets walked away from likely the worst and orsecond worst of these players. He should have gotten one of George or Butler, there's no other way around it.

Celtics fan here, I started out hating this trade and I'm still skeptical of it two days later.

Feels like we're banking on one of Kyrie/Brown/Tatum to become that elite alpha dog that every contender has. I don't view Kyrie as that guy and the kids have a long ways to go (and Kyrie could just leave after two years).

Big man situation is going to be a mess again this year with only Horford/Baynes capable of playing the Center position. Beyond Morris and Horford everyone at the PF position is a rookie. Fans have already declared second round pick Semi Ojeleye as the "Crowder replacement" for this year

Butler, George, Boogie or Zinger would have been a better pickup than another shoot-first no-defense PG. Especially if it allowed us to keep IT. Feels like a lateral move at a position we were already strong at, although Kyrie should be the better player going forward.

Anyways, rant over lol

Dude, off topic about the trade, I felt the same way about going back and forth with CeltsFanSinceBirth discussing it (and I am sure he or she did as well I think). Nobody is really right and nobody is really wrong. We could go by reports, or what we think was supposedly available or not available, but factually we do not know until it occurs. Even I could be wrong.

Whether you are for the trade or not, it is frustrating discussing it because it is so polarizing and so many moving pieces had occurred in the summer. Plus there is such a division when comparing the present and future of IT vs. Kyrie, and how much we value differently that 2018 BKN Pick.

One cool thing... Opening night... Celtics v. Cavs in which we can all enjoy and start to really analyze it.

Yeah, everyone seems to have strong opinions on it one way or the other lol. Several days later most people seem to have accepted and even embraced the trade though. Anyone still against the trade is quickly labeled "over emotional and attached"

Looking forward to seeing what IT & Kyrie can do outside of their old situations. As terrible as it sounds, I'd be more than a little happy to see Cleveland pull off a championship run next year for IT. (of course I'd be plenty happy just to see Lebron go West as well)

[Poetry-In-Motion]

Celtics fan here, I started out hating this trade and I'm still skeptical of it two days later.

Feels like we're banking on one of Kyrie/Brown/Tatum to become that elite alpha dog that every contender has. I don't view Kyrie as that guy and the kids have a long ways to go (and Kyrie could just leave after two years).

Big man situation is going to be a mess again this year with only Horford/Baynes capable of playing the Center position. Beyond Morris and Horford everyone at the PF position is a rookie. Fans have already declared second round pick Semi Ojeleye as the "Crowder replacement" for this year

Butler, George, Boogie or Zinger would have been a better pickup than another shoot-first no-defense PG. Especially if it allowed us to keep IT. Feels like a lateral move at a position we were already strong at, although Kyrie should be the better player going forward.

Anyways, rant over lol

Dude, off topic about the trade, I felt the same way about going back and forth with CeltsFanSinceBirth discussing it (and I am sure he or she did as well I think). Nobody is really right and nobody is really wrong. We could go by reports, or what we think was supposedly available or not available, but factually we do not know until it occurs. Even I could be wrong.

Whether you are for the trade or not, it is frustrating discussing it because it is so polarizing and so many moving pieces had occurred in the summer. Plus there is such a division when comparing the present and future of IT vs. Kyrie, and how much we value differently that 2018 BKN Pick.

One cool thing... Opening night... Celtics v. Cavs in which we can all enjoy and start to really analyze it.

Yeah, everyone seems to have strong opinions on it one way or the other lol. Several days later most people seem to have accepted and even embraced the trade though. Anyone still against the trade is quickly labeled "over emotional and attached"

Looking forward to seeing what IT & Kyrie can do outside of their old situations. As terrible as it sounds, I'd be more than a little happy to see Cleveland pull off a championship run next year for IT. (of course I'd be plenty happy just to see Lebron go West as well)

Haha yeah I was just talking to a friend on the phone and saying that it is really hard root against any roster that has Isaiah, K-Lo, LeBron, and Jae on it. He quickly added Jose was on the roster which just adds to that argument.

As a Raptors fan I understand how much it would help if LeBron went West next year, but with this current roster and the flexibility of that BKN pick... man it'd be fun to see him stick around.

As for the Celtics, this moment was inevitable. Whether one thinks it is a slight premium to get what many view as a superstar in Kyrie or simply view it as a complete overpay in assets for a player that some consider overrated, Ainge had compiled so many assets, eventually this moment or rather period of months where assets and players are just dumped "to go for it" which I really respect. I just question the opportunities prior to that and I question how much better is Kyrie over IT.

[PhilBlackson]

Ainge couldn't make a more wrong decision when it comes to the BKN pick.

The Lakers were a bad team and they only further tanked (ie/ trading Lou Williams, resting players etc) at the end of the year just to keep their pick because they were far more on pace to finish 5-6th worse and that's with a doorknob like Russell "leading" the team. That same said doorknob is now been shipped to BKN with an even less talented roster.

On the flipside, the Lakers gained Lonzo Ball (who I believe the Celtics should have drafted) and while I don't have the homerism Skip Bayless like belief that he is some transcendant talent. He absolutely will have an incredible effect on HOW the Lakers play and this is where I will sound like Skip because I know it was just Summer League but you can see how much team chemistry builds with Ball's unselfishness and how it makes others want to share the ball too (they also added KCP and Lopez). So they lose a player all about me and replace it with one all about we. Again they were on pace to finish closer to 5-6th last before they even further tanked. The Lakers will certainly be on pace to do much better especially when there are now a number of new bottomfeeders like CHI, ATL and IND to join the pack. Next year's pick imo will likely be in the 7-11 range so it's up to the SAC pick in 2019 which could possibly be top 5 although they added a bunch of good young players with some positive vets like Hill and VC that could keep them out of there. But irregardless the top 5 of 2018 >>>>> top 5 of 2019.

...and that right there is the biggest mistake, the top 5 of 2018 is better than what's coming out of 2019 and will be better than Tatum. I'm not hating on Tatum, he will be a pretty good scorer in the league, I don't see any bust potential to him barring an injury but he also isn't a special talent.

Bagley, Porter Jr, Doncic and possibly Ayton and Knox have the potential to be special. I'm not sure why Antentokounmpo hasn't been classified in this draft but if he is put him there with Bagley and Co. The right asset to give if Ainge was so in love with Tatum was to give the LAL/SAC pick. One player that is available at the Nets pick will be a player that you wish you could go back in time and switch the asset, quote me on that.

[Poetry-In-Motion]

Ainge couldn't make a more wrong decision when it comes to the BKN pick.

The Lakers were a bad team and they only further tanked (ie/ trading Lou Williams, resting players etc) at the end of the year just to keep their pick because they were far more on pace to finish 5-6th worse and that's with a doorknob like Russell "leading" the team. That same said doorknob is now been shipped to BKN with an even less talented roster.

On the flipside, the Lakers gained Lonzo Ball (who I believe the Celtics should have drafted) and while I don't have the homerism Skip Bayless like belief that he is some transcendant talent. He absolutely will have an incredible effect on HOW the Lakers play and this is where I will sound like Skip because I know it was just Summer League but you can see how much team chemistry builds with Ball's unselfishness and how it makes others want to share the ball too. So they lose a player all about me and replace it with one all about we. Again they were on pace to finish closer to 5-6th last before they even further tanked. The Lakers will certainly be on pace to do much better especially when there are now a number of new bottomfeeders like CHI, ATL and IND to join the pack. Next year's pick imo will likely be in the 7-11 range so it's up to the SAC pick in 2019 which could possibly be top 5 although they added a bunch of good young players with some positive vets like Hill and VC that could keep them out of there. But irregardless the top 5 of 2018 >>>>> top 5 of 2019.

...and that right there is the biggest mistake, the top 5 of 2018 is better than what's coming out of 2019 and will be better than Tatum. I'm not hating on Tatum, he will be a pretty good scorer in the league, I don't see any bust potential to him barring an injury but he also isn't a special talent.

Bagley, Porter Jr, Doncic and possibly Ayton and Knox have the potential to be special. I'm not sure why Antentokounmpo hasn't been classified in this draft but if he is put him there with Bagley and Co. The right asset to give if Ainge was so in love with Tatum was to give the LAL/SAC pick. One player that is available at the Nets pick will be a player that you wish you could go back in time and switch the asset, quote me on that.

Yeah whenever I hear the argument "the Nets do not have any intention to tank because they do not have their pick" in defense of Boston trading the pick, I always counter that they did not have the intention to tank the last two years as well, and they landed #3 in 2016 and #1 in 2017. Russell and Crabbe helps... kinda... but I don't see them as a 30 win team.

[PhilBlackson]

Ainge couldn't make a more wrong decision when it comes to the BKN pick.

The Lakers were a bad team and they only further tanked (ie/ trading Lou Williams, resting players etc) at the end of the year just to keep their pick because they were far more on pace to finish 5-6th worse and that's with a doorknob like Russell "leading" the team. That same said doorknob is now been shipped to BKN with an even less talented roster.

On the flipside, the Lakers gained Lonzo Ball (who I believe the Celtics should have drafted) and while I don't have the homerism Skip Bayless like belief that he is some transcendant talent. He absolutely will have an incredible effect on HOW the Lakers play and this is where I will sound like Skip because I know it was just Summer League but you can see how much team chemistry builds with Ball's unselfishness and how it makes others want to share the ball too. So they lose a player all about me and replace it with one all about we. Again they were on pace to finish closer to 5-6th last before they even further tanked. The Lakers will certainly be on pace to do much better especially when there are now a number of new bottomfeeders like CHI, ATL and IND to join the pack. Next year's pick imo will likely be in the 7-11 range so it's up to the SAC pick in 2019 which could possibly be top 5 although they added a bunch of good young players with some positive vets like Hill and VC that could keep them out of there. But irregardless the top 5 of 2018 >>>>> top 5 of 2019.

...and that right there is the biggest mistake, the top 5 of 2018 is better than what's coming out of 2019 and will be better than Tatum. I'm not hating on Tatum, he will be a pretty good scorer in the league, I don't see any bust potential to him barring an injury but he also isn't a special talent.

Bagley, Porter Jr, Doncic and possibly Ayton and Knox have the potential to be special. I'm not sure why Antentokounmpo hasn't been classified in this draft but if he is put him there with Bagley and Co. The right asset to give if Ainge was so in love with Tatum was to give the LAL/SAC pick. One player that is available at the Nets pick will be a player that you wish you could go back in time and switch the asset, quote me on that.

Yeah whenever I hear the argument "the Nets do not have any intention to tank because they do not have their pick" in defense of Boston trading the pick, I always counter that they did not have the intention to tank the last two years as well, and they landed #3 in 2016 and #1 in 2017. Russell and Crabbe helps... kinda... but I don't see them as a 30 win team.

Yup.

I'm just saying while BKN may or may not be #1 overall or even top 3 I think there is about 95+% chance they are in the bottom 5-6 and that equals one of...

Bagley
Porter Jr
Doncic
Ayton
Knox
Bamba
Antentokounmpo* (I need to read more to confirm if he isn't in, doesn't make sense why not)

All of whom I would easily take over Tatum. Even Sexton and Duval could turn out to be same damn good PGs.

[sidsid]

My argument is that the Celtics had the opportunity to sign Hayward to the max, trade for Butler, and draft Fultz. We both agree on the 2018 Nets Pick being discussed for Butler in early June, and therefore, they were able to make a deal central on that pick and not the 2017 Pick. Ainge "sure as hell" not giving up on Bradley, Crowder, and Brown for Butler is irrelevant to the point. All I am saying is that they had the the opportunity to sign Hayward to the max, trade for Butler, and draft Fultz.

By the way, the only difference between what actually occurred is that Jaylen Brown was kept, therefore any complaints that it would be too much does not make sense to me.

Bradley was traded. Crowder was traded. Fultz was traded. Thomas was traded. The 2018 Unprotected Nets Pick was traded.

And for all of that... the Celtics got... Kyrie Irving, Tatum, Marcus Morris and the 2018 Lakers (or 2019 yada yada pick).

When we pretty much agree that Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and 2018 Nets pick for Butler would have been a for sure transaction (with Bulls maybe sending back a late future pick), and they would have still been able to make space to sign Hayward (if it is dealing Smart for relief and pick), draft Fultz, and keep Isaiah Thomas.

And personally, if you gave me the options of having

A) Butler, Thomas, Fultz, and Hayward

or

B) Irving, Morris, Brown, Tatum, and Smart

I am taking group A in a New York minute.

All of these hypothetical scenarios that did not happen aside, I just felt, Ainge had a below average summer in terms of trades and asset management (just for this summer). But the overall offseason will always start with an atleast an A- because they acquired Hayward for free through free agency.

I just think in terms of trades... they essentially traded Fultz, Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, Bradley, and the 2018 Unprotected Nets Pick for Irving, Morris, Tatum, and the 2018 Lakers (or 2019 yada yada pick) which I think is paying $2 for $1. And there were scenarios for better players for a cheaper price (in terms of assets) just two and a half months ago. I do understand though there would be a point where Ainge would probably have to give up more assets than he should just based on the clutter of assets he has.

But I get your views if you like the trade... I ain't going down a rabbit hole further. I think Boston gave up way too much for what they got back.

First of all, option B is incorrect, since you forgot to include Hayward.

Second of all, you're operating on the premise that the timing of these deals did not matter, which they very much did.

February, 2017 - Celtics call for Butler, but the Bulls want Crowder and the 2017 Nets pick, unprotected. Ainge counters with 2 options: The unprotected Nets pick, along with filler (expiring contract) of Amir Johnson. The other option was the Nets pick, top 2 protected, and Jae Crowder. Chicago said no to both.

Fast forward to June, 2017. Celtics trade the #1 pick for #3 and the 2018 Lakers pick (top 1, 6-30 protected). Now, the Bulls ask for the 3rd pick, or the 2018 Nets pick. Nothing else. Danny won't pull the trigger because it then eats into cap space, and he knows he has a great shot at landing Hayward. Why would you deal one of those picks for Butler when you're getting Hayward for cap space, along with Rozier. The league first announced a projected cap number of $102 million in April, 2017. At that point, Ainge figured he only had to clear Rozier to get to that max ofer. The Celtics did not know that the cap was only going to be $99 million, as the NBA did not announce this number until June 22, 2017. So again, when Chicago made this offer, the Celtics did not realize that they would actually have to part with Bradley down the road. In addition to that, Danny's first move to actually clear cap space was to shop Marcus Smart. Ainge had planned on keeping Bradley. However, when Detroit called to offer up Marcus Morris, this helped Ainge in 2 ways - it helped him get another front court player, while also clearing up enough cap space to sign Hayward.

With regards to the Nets pick - that 2018 pick is still very valuable. However, things have happened since then which have made it a little easier for Ainge to part with it. Again, Ainge now has that Lakers pick with top 1, 6-30 protection. It's possible that Ainge could still be able to draft a guy next year with that pick. The Nets pick became a little less valuable thanks to the moves the Nets have made as well. They've acquired D'eangelo Russell while getting rid of Brook Lopez. This allows them to even play more uptempo, which is what Atkinson wants, and they no longer have to wait for Lopez. They also acquired DMC (lol) and Crabbe. Those guys might not seem so great (DMC obviously), but they're still an improvement over whatever the Nets rolled out last year. Last but not least, look at the amount of talent that has gone out west. George, Butler, Teague and Milsap all mean that there is a very good chance that the Bulls, Pacers and Hawks could be tanking. Add in the Magic and the Knicks, and the East still looks very bad. The Nets have no reason to tank, but those other teams have more reason to do so.

It sucks giving up that Nets pick, because they could still be awful, but again, Ainge had his choice to keep 1 of the 2 picks, and he chose the Lakers pick. Ainge chose the safer option at this point, which is the Lakers pick. If the Nets win and the pick is 9-10, it doesn't move the needle for the Cs. If the Lakers win and their pick is 9-10, then the Celtics don't get it, but they still have a valuable asset in that Kings/Sixers pick. It also buys Ainge an extra year to trade that pick, a luxury he wouldn't have had he kept the Nets pick.

We will see if Ainge's gamble pays off, but again, I think Ainge has been spot on with his forecasting thus far.

I marked bolded as incorrect. Hayward is apples to apples which is why I threw in Smart to make it work cap wise in category A and B.

2018 Nets pick was nearly as desirable for Chicago which could have been central. A 2018 Nets Pick, Brown, Crowder or Bradley deal would have nabbed Butler. I cannot continue this argument if you do not get any of that.

I'm done with the rabbit hole. Have fun with your Celtics.

This is another critical point that quantifies the reservations on this trade. We know that Butler/George, players who are a whole level above Kyrie, could be had for comparable packages. In a vacuum you can rationalize the Kyrie trade, but with the full context known, that's where Ainge is, and should be judged.

And the arguments shouldn't stop at what Ainge was trying to do trade wise. There are easily workable scenarios where you use Horford as the salary ballast in a trade for one or both of them (add a salary filler team); allowing to still go after Hayward in FA.

If your rational for trading IT was so that you didn't overpay a 29 year old, injury prone player; my rational is you can get rid of your over 30 year old, overpayed, injury prone big man instead.

[XxIronChainzxX]

There you go again just brushing off every stat. You always have an excuse to discredit him its actually pretty hilarious how hard you're trying.

Volume stats don't need me to "brush them off". They've been proven time and time again to be irrelevant in determining player productivity.

They're even more irrelevant when you consider the small sample size.

So its ok for LeBron fans to say the Cavs sucked without LeBron for 27 games over a 3 year period but 39 games worth of stats is not good enough for Kyrie Irving over two years in the playoffs. Keep pushing the narrative though.

I actually value Kyrie's playoff (and Finals) performance a lot, but using Kyrie + Lebron stats is not an apples to apples comparison of Kyrie without Lebron stats if the argument is about what Kyrie can do without Lebron.