Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[tsherkin]

For those who are extremely disappointed in scotty's season...they probably bought into the hype that he didn't deserve. And so much of it was fueled by a toxic element of the fanbase that blamed other players for any perceived shortcomings in his game.

Approaching a dissenting opinion by calling a subsection of the fanbase "toxic" isn't generally a good idea.

I'm not disappointed in his season at all. When you are responsible for a team's offensive performance....your efficiency numbers will worsen. That's why ppl who are so emphatically focused on efficiency tend to overrate players with limited roles.

No, this is incorrect. There is a degree to which inefficiency can be expected with higher proportion of on-ball responsibility and weak teammates, no doubt, of course. But for players who are actually worthwhile as focal scorers, they don't perform at this low level under these circumstances. Certainly, no one should be surprised that Scottie isn't as efficient as SGA, for example. But team environment isn't causing him to brick open 3s, shoot a mediocre percentage from the FT line or struggle to get to the rim/FT line. Those are issues he has due to his lack of quickness and shooting touch, which are independent of team context.

Remember, he's hot garbage right now as a volume scorer. He's at 52.7% TS, which is 4.7% below league average, which is VIOLENTLY awful. Among 20+ ppg scorers who've played at least 30 games, he is 42nd (DEAD LAST) in TS%. That isn't an issue of team environment, that's him having a terrible, terrible season. He's 1.6% BELOW the guy in slot 41 (Miles Bridges), creating his own tier of inefficiency. 28 of the 42 guys are scoring at least at league-average efficiency. Including Jordan Poole. Only 3 guys besides Barnes are below 55.1% TS: LaMelo Ball, Jalen Green and Bridges.

There is no sane defense of the quality of his season, nor handwaving of how poor his efficiency has been. That isn't an option anymore, he's been ridiculously bad. Going back to 09-10, there have been 19 player-seasons of someone playing 50+ games, scoring 20+ ppg and posting a TS% of 53% or worse. Scottie's only played 42 games so far, so if you drop that to 40+ GP, there are 21 player-season. It's gunner city. So keep that in mind: this is one of the least-efficient volume-scoring seasons we've seen in a decade and a half.

THAT'S what we're looking at with Scottie's scoring right now.

All this being said....scotty is a HUGE team asset. The Swiss army knife in a starting 5. He's just nothing close to what his crazy diehard fans envisioned. And he doesn't have the maturity or work ethic to transcend his limitations.

This is certainly true. He's not a guy we should be looking to trade carelessly, because he has a lot of potential (and at his current level of development) to a better team. It just isn't in the role of volume scorer. He's a good defender with good playmaking ability and he has some tools which he could leverage to look a little better as a finishing option with more support. Very much like RJ, really.

[deck]

What I’m confused about with the tankers who hate this move is BI is not going to affect our tank and draft position for this upcoming draft because he’s barely gonna play in the second half. So whether we draft a stud or not has nothing to do with BI lol. If the front office misses on this draft they just missed and it is what it is. You win some you lose some. I choose to believe in the front office because they have a good history of drafting well overall. But you won’t nail it every time, that’s just the reality.

And if y’all want to cry about the 20th or so pick we gave up that’s on y’all. The likelihood of that pick becoming as good as BI is very low. And tankers know this because they’re the first to scream about how the lower the draft pick the less likely you are to get a star. Which is why they want us to tank so bad in the first place. Other than the health worry, which 90% of people agree is a worry, I don’t understand what everyone is going on about.

Y’all said this team needs another star level player alongside Scottie. Y’all said this team needs talent. When healthy, BI is both of those things but people are still complaining. That draft pick isn’t guaranteed to become a star and even if they do become a star it will take a few years of development to get them there. No one in this draft is generational, so I expect that player to take 3-4 years to become a star if they even become one at all. Only generational players become stars within their first 2 years or so of being in the league. I don’t know, all of this just feels like people wanting to complain and be mad just to be mad.

I find plenty of posters succumb to the 'no true scotsman' fallacy when discussing the team and how to build. It's the championship or bust mentality, and when viewed through that lens, it's easy to be critical of pretty much any move, because the options available to assure a championship outcome are virtually non-existent.

[Pointgod]

What I’m confused about with the tankers who hate this move is BI is not going to affect our tank and draft position for this upcoming draft because he’s barely gonna play in the second half. So whether we draft a stud or not has nothing to do with BI lol. If the front office misses on this draft they just missed and it is what it is. You win some you lose some. I choose to believe in the front office because they have a good history of drafting well overall. But you won’t nail it every time, that’s just the reality.

I don’t think anyone who’s pro tankers hates this move on the surface but rather the front office trying to short cut a rebuilding process to build a team with limited ceiling. If the front office was committed to rebuilding, they would have prioritized getting a top 5 pick and made the moves to secure a lottery position to give them selves the best chance of that. Also getting Ingram most likely puts them out of the running next season for a high lottery pick. If you trust in the ability of this front office to draft, why wouldn’t you want to give them the highest pick possible to select the best players in the draft?

And if y’all want to cry about the 20th or so pick we gave up that’s on y’all. The likelihood of that pick becoming as good as BI is very low. And tankers know this because they’re the first to scream about how the lower the draft pick the less likely you are to get a star. Which is why they want us to tank so bad in the first place. Other than the health worry, which 90% of people agree is a worry, I don’t understand what everyone is going on about.

Well one, you the pick from the Pacers is only top 4 protected and who knows what could happen. Remember we gave up a lottery pick in the Poeltl trade because our front office thought we were a lot better than we actually were. I agree with you that the Pacers pick is most likely mid to late draft which is fine to give up for Ingram, but also remember that trading and resigning Ingram puts us close to the tax which means that to resign guys like Ochai and our second round picks from this year we’ll need to move salary (RJ/Quickley/Poeltl) which kind of sets us back. The value having multiple first round picks is that if you hit on them, then you have them cost controlled for 4 years.

Y’all said this team needs another star level player alongside Scottie. Y’all said this team needs talent. When healthy, BI is both of those things but people are still complaining. That draft pick isn’t guaranteed to become a star and even if they do become a star it will take a few years of development to get them there. No one in this draft is generational, so I expect that player to take 3-4 years to become a star if they even become one at all. Only generational players become stars within their first 2 years or so of being in the league. I don’t know, all of this just feels like people wanting to complain and be mad just to be mad.

Brandon Ingram at his best was not a star player. I can’t speak for other people, but when I say star I mean a top 10 possibly top 15 player. Scottie could maybe turn into a star, but if you’re expecting Ingram to be your best player then you’ve capped your team’s ceiling pretty low. If you compare this to the Luka trade, even if Luka was to never improve from where he is now, he’s played at a level to lead a team to the finals. If Ingram was never to improve from where he is now, he’s been to the playoffs twice in 9 seasons. This is the challenge a lot of people are having with the trade because the vision seems to be a bunch of short term moves that don’t put us in a place that was better than when we had a Siakam led team

[GLF]

What I’m confused about with the tankers who hate this move is BI is not going to affect our tank and draft position for this upcoming draft because he’s barely gonna play in the second half. So whether we draft a stud or not has nothing to do with BI lol. If the front office misses on this draft they just missed and it is what it is. You win some you lose some. I choose to believe in the front office because they have a good history of drafting well overall. But you won’t nail it every time, that’s just the reality.

And if y’all want to cry about the 20th or so pick we gave up that’s on y’all. The likelihood of that pick becoming as good as BI is very low. And tankers know this because they’re the first to scream about how the lower the draft pick the less likely you are to get a star. Which is why they want us to tank so bad in the first place. Other than the health worry, which 90% of people agree is a worry, I don’t understand what everyone is going on about.

Y’all said this team needs another star level player alongside Scottie. Y’all said this team needs talent. When healthy, BI is both of those things but people are still complaining. That draft pick isn’t guaranteed to become a star and even if they do become a star it will take a few years of development to get them there. No one in this draft is generational, so I expect that player to take 3-4 years to become a star if they even become one at all. Only generational players become stars within their first 2 years or so of being in the league. I don’t know, all of this just feels like people wanting to complain and be mad just to be mad.

I find plenty of posters succumb to the 'no true scotsman' fallacy when discussing the team and how to build. It's the championship or bust mentality, and when viewed through that lens, it's easy to be critical of pretty much any move, because the options available to assure a championship outcome are virtually non-existent.

Yup! But I’m tired of going back and forth with them. Or I should say reading the back and forth with them. We are just going to have to agree to disagree because they aren’t changing their minds. I just don’t understand why one would continue to “support” a team or be a “fan” of a team they don’t seem to like. Not only do they not like the team as currently constructed, they also don’t like the clear direction the team is going, which to them is “treadmill”.

I’m not saying you have to love every move that’s made. Most people don’t, but when it seems to be 90% or more of the moves in the last 5 years you hate, that’s when it starts looking like you don’t even like the team. Because even when an objectively good move is made they have something negative to say or there is some caveat to their praise. They can never just say the front office did a good job. It’s almost like it hurts their heart to do so. And if no move has been objectively good to you then it comes back to why are you a fan of this team?

And this is something they have no control over because they aren’t the front office or the players. So all they’re going to be doing moving forward is going on and on about why they hate every move and why it will fail. Must be so exhausting, cause I know I’m exhausted seeing their posts (and yes they’re all on my ignore list but it doesn’t matter because someone always replies back to them through quote so I see what they say anyway). But hey what do I know. To each their own I guess. I can’t tell people how to be fans.

It just seems very unhinged to me at this point. Sports are supposed to be fun, if you hate everything or at least 98% of things the team your a fan of does and don’t like their direction for the future either, I don’t know how enjoyable it can be for you. Masai and Bobby are clearly not rebuilding the way they want (supposedly their way is the only right way) and there is nothing they can do about it. May as well give it up and try to enjoy the journey because none of us can tell the future. Winning is fun and hopefully we will have more of that next season. Enjoy it.

[Tripod]

What I’m confused about with the tankers who hate this move is BI is not going to affect our tank and draft position for this upcoming draft because he’s barely gonna play in the second half. So whether we draft a stud or not has nothing to do with BI lol. If the front office misses on this draft they just missed and it is what it is. You win some you lose some. I choose to believe in the front office because they have a good history of drafting well overall. But you won’t nail it every time, that’s just the reality.

I don’t think anyone who’s pro tankers hates this move on the surface but rather the front office trying to short cut a rebuilding process to build a team with limited ceiling. If the front office was committed to rebuilding, they would have prioritized getting a top 5 pick and made the moves to secure a lottery position to give them selves the best chance of that. Also getting Ingram most likely puts them out of the running next season for a high lottery pick. If you trust in the ability of this front office to draft, why wouldn’t you want to give them the highest pick possible to select the best players in the draft?

And if y’all want to cry about the 20th or so pick we gave up that’s on y’all. The likelihood of that pick becoming as good as BI is very low. And tankers know this because they’re the first to scream about how the lower the draft pick the less likely you are to get a star. Which is why they want us to tank so bad in the first place. Other than the health worry, which 90% of people agree is a worry, I don’t understand what everyone is going on about.

Well one, you the pick from the Pacers is only top 4 protected and who knows what could happen. Remember we gave up a lottery pick in the Poeltl trade because our front office thought we were a lot better than we actually were. I agree with you that the Pacers pick is most likely mid to late draft which is fine to give up for Ingram, but also remember that trading and resigning Ingram puts us close to the tax which means that to resign guys like Ochai and our second round picks from this year we’ll need to move salary (RJ/Quickley/Poeltl) which kind of sets us back. The value having multiple first round picks is that if you hit on them, then you have them cost controlled for 4 years.

Y’all said this team needs another star level player alongside Scottie. Y’all said this team needs talent. When healthy, BI is both of those things but people are still complaining. That draft pick isn’t guaranteed to become a star and even if they do become a star it will take a few years of development to get them there. No one in this draft is generational, so I expect that player to take 3-4 years to become a star if they even become one at all. Only generational players become stars within their first 2 years or so of being in the league. I don’t know, all of this just feels like people wanting to complain and be mad just to be mad.

Brandon Ingram at his best was not a star player. I can’t speak for other people, but when I say star I mean a top 10 possibly top 15 player. Scottie could maybe turn into a star, but if you’re expecting Ingram to be your best player then you’ve capped your team’s ceiling pretty low. If you compare this to the Luka trade, even if Luka was to never improve from where he is now, he’s played at a level to lead a team to the finals. If Ingram was never to improve from where he is now, he’s been to the playoffs twice in 9 seasons. This is the challenge a lot of people are having with the trade because the vision seems to be a bunch of short term moves that don’t put us in a place that was better than when we had a Siakam led team

It took missing a starter all year as well as 3 other rotational guys missing lots of time(BB,KO,JKW) and Barnes hurting his ankle and face, and playing at time 5 rookies, to even get near the bottom.

I think it was a reasonable thought that it would not happen again next year and would instead be a playin team. So they decided that the cost to add a 20+point scorer would outway the alternative. And giving this team a better #1 scoring option is a step in the right direction.

[tsherkin]

I just don’t understand why one would continue to “support” a team or be a “fan” of a team they don’t seem to like. Not only do they not like the team as currently constructed, they also don’t like the clear direction the team is going, which to them is “treadmill”.

It's the team in their city. They don't have to enjoy the direction the team is taking, nor do they have to enjoy the team as it is presently constructed, either. Management doesn't get carte blanche to do anything without criticism.

It just seems very unhinged to me at this point. Sports are supposed to be fun, if you hate everything or at least 98% of things the team your a fan of does and don’t like their direction for the future either, I don’t know how enjoyable it can be for you.

I'm sure that for some, it isn't. And that they're hoping for a time when that changes.

[Pointgod]

What I’m confused about with the tankers who hate this move is BI is not going to affect our tank and draft position for this upcoming draft because he’s barely gonna play in the second half. So whether we draft a stud or not has nothing to do with BI lol. If the front office misses on this draft they just missed and it is what it is. You win some you lose some. I choose to believe in the front office because they have a good history of drafting well overall. But you won’t nail it every time, that’s just the reality.

I don’t think anyone who’s pro tankers hates this move on the surface but rather the front office trying to short cut a rebuilding process to build a team with limited ceiling. If the front office was committed to rebuilding, they would have prioritized getting a top 5 pick and made the moves to secure a lottery position to give them selves the best chance of that. Also getting Ingram most likely puts them out of the running next season for a high lottery pick. If you trust in the ability of this front office to draft, why wouldn’t you want to give them the highest pick possible to select the best players in the draft?

And if y’all want to cry about the 20th or so pick we gave up that’s on y’all. The likelihood of that pick becoming as good as BI is very low. And tankers know this because they’re the first to scream about how the lower the draft pick the less likely you are to get a star. Which is why they want us to tank so bad in the first place. Other than the health worry, which 90% of people agree is a worry, I don’t understand what everyone is going on about.

Well one, you the pick from the Pacers is only top 4 protected and who knows what could happen. Remember we gave up a lottery pick in the Poeltl trade because our front office thought we were a lot better than we actually were. I agree with you that the Pacers pick is most likely mid to late draft which is fine to give up for Ingram, but also remember that trading and resigning Ingram puts us close to the tax which means that to resign guys like Ochai and our second round picks from this year we’ll need to move salary (RJ/Quickley/Poeltl) which kind of sets us back. The value having multiple first round picks is that if you hit on them, then you have them cost controlled for 4 years.

Y’all said this team needs another star level player alongside Scottie. Y’all said this team needs talent. When healthy, BI is both of those things but people are still complaining. That draft pick isn’t guaranteed to become a star and even if they do become a star it will take a few years of development to get them there. No one in this draft is generational, so I expect that player to take 3-4 years to become a star if they even become one at all. Only generational players become stars within their first 2 years or so of being in the league. I don’t know, all of this just feels like people wanting to complain and be mad just to be mad.

Brandon Ingram at his best was not a star player. I can’t speak for other people, but when I say star I mean a top 10 possibly top 15 player. Scottie could maybe turn into a star, but if you’re expecting Ingram to be your best player then you’ve capped your team’s ceiling pretty low. If you compare this to the Luka trade, even if Luka was to never improve from where he is now, he’s played at a level to lead a team to the finals. If Ingram was never to improve from where he is now, he’s been to the playoffs twice in 9 seasons. This is the challenge a lot of people are having with the trade because the vision seems to be a bunch of short term moves that don’t put us in a place that was better than when we had a Siakam led team

It took missing a starter all year as well as 3 other rotational guys missing lots of time(BB,KO,JKW) and Barnes hurting his ankle and face, and playing at time 5 rookies, to even get near the bottom.

I think it was a reasonable thought that it would not happen again next year and would instead be a playin team. So they decided that the cost to add a 20+point scorer would outway the alternative. And giving this team a better #1 scoring option is a step in the right direction.

I’ve said from the beginning of the year that the front office should have traded Poeltl and just played the young players. Guarantee you we’d finish with a bottom 3 record. I get not everyone has the stomach to do that but these are some of the things you have to be willing to do in a proper rebuild.

And you had the Raptors making the play-in next year even if we didn’t trade for Ingram? I don’t know about that. What metrics are you looking at that would indicate that? We’re 24th in offensive rating, 25th in defensive rating and 26th in net rating. I think if we were a team looking to the play-in based on internal improvements, we’d show potential are top 20 or middle of the pack potential in one of these metrics this year.

[Tripod]

I don’t think anyone who’s pro tankers hates this move on the surface but rather the front office trying to short cut a rebuilding process to build a team with limited ceiling. If the front office was committed to rebuilding, they would have prioritized getting a top 5 pick and made the moves to secure a lottery position to give them selves the best chance of that. Also getting Ingram most likely puts them out of the running next season for a high lottery pick. If you trust in the ability of this front office to draft, why wouldn’t you want to give them the highest pick possible to select the best players in the draft?



Well one, you the pick from the Pacers is only top 4 protected and who knows what could happen. Remember we gave up a lottery pick in the Poeltl trade because our front office thought we were a lot better than we actually were. I agree with you that the Pacers pick is most likely mid to late draft which is fine to give up for Ingram, but also remember that trading and resigning Ingram puts us close to the tax which means that to resign guys like Ochai and our second round picks from this year we’ll need to move salary (RJ/Quickley/Poeltl) which kind of sets us back. The value having multiple first round picks is that if you hit on them, then you have them cost controlled for 4 years.



Brandon Ingram at his best was not a star player. I can’t speak for other people, but when I say star I mean a top 10 possibly top 15 player. Scottie could maybe turn into a star, but if you’re expecting Ingram to be your best player then you’ve capped your team’s ceiling pretty low. If you compare this to the Luka trade, even if Luka was to never improve from where he is now, he’s played at a level to lead a team to the finals. If Ingram was never to improve from where he is now, he’s been to the playoffs twice in 9 seasons. This is the challenge a lot of people are having with the trade because the vision seems to be a bunch of short term moves that don’t put us in a place that was better than when we had a Siakam led team

It took missing a starter all year as well as 3 other rotational guys missing lots of time(BB,KO,JKW) and Barnes hurting his ankle and face, and playing at time 5 rookies, to even get near the bottom.

I think it was a reasonable thought that it would not happen again next year and would instead be a playin team. So they decided that the cost to add a 20+point scorer would outway the alternative. And giving this team a better #1 scoring option is a step in the right direction.

I’ve said from the beginning of the year that the front office should have traded Poeltl and just played the young players. Guarantee you we’d finish with a bottom 3 record. I get not everyone has the stomach to do that but these are some of the things you have to be willing to do in a proper rebuild.

And you had the Raptors making the play-in next year even if we didn’t trade for Ingram? I don’t know about that. What metrics are you looking at that would indicate that? We’re 24th in offensive rating, 25th in defensive rating and 26th in net rating. I think if we were a team looking to the play-in based on internal improvements, we’d show potential are top 20 or middle of the pack potential in one of these metrics this year.

We are 5.5 games out of a play in now with all the inuries and one of the hardest schedules. If we had just a bit of better health we could be a playin team right now.

[tsherkin]

We are 5.5 games out of a play in now with all the inuries and one of the hardest schedules. If we had just a bit of better health we could be a playin team right now.

Could be. But the play-in is crap. It's like a consolation prize: here, now you TOO can get smoked in the first round because you're a garbage squad. Might as well miss the playoffs at that point.

[GLF]

I just don’t understand why one would continue to “support” a team or be a “fan” of a team they don’t seem to like. Not only do they not like the team as currently constructed, they also don’t like the clear direction the team is going, which to them is “treadmill”.

It's the team in their city. They don't have to enjoy the direction the team is taking, nor do they have to enjoy the team as it is presently constructed, either. Management doesn't get carte blanche to do anything without criticism.

It just seems very unhinged to me at this point. Sports are supposed to be fun, if you hate everything or at least 98% of things the team your a fan of does and don’t like their direction for the future either, I don’t know how enjoyable it can be for you.

I'm sure that for some, it isn't. And that they're hoping for a time when that changes.

And you are right. They don’t have to like everything about the team. I don’t like everything about the team. It’s just confusing to me when it seems to be such a high percentage of what the team does they hate. And even the things like may like they very rarely if ever speak on it so you can’t even recall what they like. They rather focus on everything they hate lol. I guess it’s cause I personally would not be able to follow a team I seem to dislike that much. To me why are you following a team you do not like AND don’t see a bright future for. Hate following is just very strange behaviour to me. Especially for something like sports that’s supposed to bring you joy. But maybe “critiquing” constantly gives them joy. To each their own. I don’t have to understand it I guess.

And as you said they are probably hoping for a time when that changes, and for all our sake I hope that day comes. But from what others have said it seems a lot of these posters have always been this way even when we won a championship. If they were this negative (or I should say critiquing because they hate the word negative) even then I don’t think they’ll ever be happy with the team. When you have the championship or bust mentality and the tanking is the only route for THIS team (gotta make sure to say that bc supposedly they don’t think tanking is the only way, they just think it’s the only way for the Raptors) to be successful mentality you can never be happy with the team. One bc you have zero control whether or not the team tanks for as long as they seem to want them to and two, even when you have a contending team you are not guaranteed to win a championship. Ask that Sixers team we beat.

It wasn’t guaranteed Raptors would win it that year, even though they 100% had a championship calibre team, and they almost didn’t. There’s a lot of luck as well that goes into it. To me you can never enjoy the journey when you have that mindset. But whatever, they can be a fan of this team however they please. I will just continue to have them on my ignore list. This is definitely the last time I’m speaking on this. I will let others do the back and forth bc I’m tired and at this point it’s a waste of time.

[tsherkin]

And you are right. They don’t have to like everything about the team. I don’t like everything about the team. It’s just confusing to me when it seems to be such a high percentage of what the team does they hate. And even the things like may like they very rarely if ever speak on it so you can’t even recall what they like.

Well, when things don't go the way people want, sometimes it's all they can focus on. Especially when we're bad, and they can't see the direction moving in a way which makes sense to them and what they want, right?

And as you said they are probably hoping for a time when that changes, and for all our sake I hope that day comes. But from what others have said it seems a lot of these posters have always been this way even when we won a championship.

Some people are just never happy, sure. We had a great run with us running into an ATG monster in Lebron a few times, and then it culminated in a title, which nearly half the league doesn't have. So that was pretty epic. And yeah, we should be get comfortable trying to be a perennial playoff team looking to win a round or two, because decades go by without anything better than that for most teams. The Lakers, Spurs and Warriors are the only team which have been relevant for a decade-plus in terms of contention this past quarter century, and that on the back of hilariously high-level, generational superstars. It isn't like the rest of the league was crap during that time (and even LA wasn't contiguous in its relevance over that stretch, to be fair, but they had 3 different blocks of relevance).

So yeah, there's got to be SOME room for positivity, I agree. Even from pessimists like me xD

[mdenny]

For those who are extremely disappointed in scotty's season...they probably bought into the hype that he didn't deserve. And so much of it was fueled by a toxic element of the fanbase that blamed other players for any perceived shortcomings in his game.

Approaching a dissenting opinion by calling a subsection of the fanbase "toxic" isn't generally a good idea.

I'm not disappointed in his season at all. When you are responsible for a team's offensive performance....your efficiency numbers will worsen. That's why ppl who are so emphatically focused on efficiency tend to overrate players with limited roles.

No, this is incorrect. There is a degree to which inefficiency can be expected with higher proportion of on-ball responsibility and weak teammates, no doubt, of course. But for players who are actually worthwhile as focal scorers, they don't perform at this low level under these circumstances. Certainly, no one should be surprised that Scottie isn't as efficient as SGA, for example. But team environment isn't causing him to brick open 3s, shoot a mediocre percentage from the FT line or struggle to get to the rim/FT line. Those are issues he has due to his lack of quickness and shooting touch, which are independent of team context.

Remember, he's hot garbage right now as a volume scorer. He's at 52.7% TS, which is 4.7% below league average, which is VIOLENTLY awful. Among 20+ ppg scorers who've played at least 30 games, he is 42nd (DEAD LAST) in TS%. That isn't an issue of team environment, that's him having a terrible, terrible season. He's 1.6% BELOW the guy in slot 41 (Miles Bridges), creating his own tier of inefficiency. 28 of the 42 guys are scoring at least at league-average efficiency. Including Jordan Poole. Only 3 guys besides Barnes are below 55.1% TS: LaMelo Ball, Jalen Green and Bridges.

There is no sane defense of the quality of his season, nor handwaving of how poor his efficiency has been. That isn't an option anymore, he's been ridiculously bad. Going back to 09-10, there have been 19 player-seasons of someone playing 50+ games, scoring 20+ ppg and posting a TS% of 53% or worse. Scottie's only played 42 games so far, so if you drop that to 40+ GP, there are 21 player-season. It's gunner city. So keep that in mind: this is one of the least-efficient volume-scoring seasons we've seen in a decade and a half.

THAT'S what we're looking at with Scottie's scoring right now.

All this being said....scotty is a HUGE team asset. The Swiss army knife in a starting 5. He's just nothing close to what his crazy diehard fans envisioned. And he doesn't have the maturity or work ethic to transcend his limitations.

This is certainly true. He's not a guy we should be looking to trade carelessly, because he has a lot of potential (and at his current level of development) to a better team. It just isn't in the role of volume scorer. He's a good defender with good playmaking ability and he has some tools which he could leverage to look a little better as a finishing option with more support. Very much like RJ, really.

Who do you think is more efficient: scotty Barnes or Anthony edwards?

95% of the player analysis in this thread is nonsense. It actually boils down to: if scotty takes less responsibility for the offensive outcomes he will chart better in our statistical analysis that is without any context or application to the real world of being a good ball player.

[tsherkin]

Who do you think is more efficient: scotty Barnes or Anthony edwards?

Very obviously Anthony Edwards. That isn't a useful question.

95% of the player analysis in this thread is nonsense. It actually boils down to: if scotty takes less responsibility for the offensive outcomes he will chart better in our statistical analysis that is without any context or application to the real world of being a good ball player.

Yes. He isn't good enough to handle the role we are giving him in terms of scoring load. If we make life easier for him, then his efficiency will be better, as will his utility to our team offense. We still need to find someone who isn't a horrible volume scorer to front the volume and shot creation, but that's a separate issue.

[mdenny]

Who do you think is more efficient: scotty Barnes or Anthony edwards?

Very obviously Anthony Edwards. That isn't a useful question.

95% of the player analysis in this thread is nonsense. It actually boils down to: if scotty takes less responsibility for the offensive outcomes he will chart better in our statistical analysis that is without any context or application to the real world of being a good ball player.

Yes. He isn't good enough to handle the role we are giving him in terms of scoring load. If we make life easier for him, then his efficiency will be better, as will his utility to our team offense. We still need to find someone who isn't a horrible volume scorer to front the volume and shot creation, but that's a separate issue.

Ant is shooting 44%.

[tsherkin]

Ant is shooting 44%.

Yes, but this being 2025, we are aware that raw FG% isn't a useful measure of efficiency.

Ant is shooting 41.4% on 10.1 3PA/g, which is Steph-level shooting and alters his points per possession pretty dramatically. He's posting 58.7% TS, which is +0.7% over league average, not nearly 5% below league average. It makes a significant difference. He's also a 84.3% FT shooter who, even in a down year, is getting to the line with an FTr of .283, which is a little better than Barnes this year.

You'd have be to be intentionally disingenuous or staggeringly ignorant to argue that Scottie's of comparable efficiency to Ant.

[mdenny]

Ant is shooting 44%.

Yes, but this being 2025, we are aware that raw FG% isn't a useful measure of efficiency.

Ant is shooting 41.4% on 10.1 3PA/g, which is Steph-level shooting and alters his points per possession pretty dramatically. He's posting 58.7% TS, which is +0.7% over league average, not nearly 5% below league average. It makes a significant difference. He's also a 84.3% FT shooter who, even in a down year, is getting to the line with an FTr of .283, which is a little better than Barnes this year.

You'd have be to be intentionally disingenuous or staggeringly ignorant to argue that Scottie's of comparable efficiency to Ant.

So Ant is less than a percentage point above league average in TS yah?

Does that translate to somewhere between the 150th and 200th position league wide? I'm thinking maybe 100th to 150th.

[tsherkin]

So Ant is less than a percentage point above league average in TS yah?

Correct. Irrelevant to your question about relative comparison with Scottie, though.

Ant isn't a staggering offensive centerpiece either, he's just obviously better than Scottie.

[mdenny]

So Ant is less than a percentage point above league average in TS yah?

Correct. Irrelevant to your question about relative comparison with Scottie, though.

Ant isn't a staggering offensive centerpiece either, he's just obviously better than Scottie.

I asked where does .7 of a percentage point above league average in true shooting place Ant league wide? Somewhere between 100th to 150th?

[Tha Cynic]

We’re just all going around making post after post when really what we want to say is - shoot more free throws snd improve that, and be only bad shooting the 3. Everything else just seems like people losing their minds over nothing in a tanking season as Barnes is actually good everywhere else.

I’m sure the Raptors know the formula for higher TS%. You can be shooting poorly and putting up higher TS% by tweaking your game to focus on areas that TS% favours. Ask Wagner who’s shooting 31% from 3 while taking 6 a game. I expect they will change his shot profile next season given they are planning on winning. With another person taking on the main scoring their analytics team should be able to pin point areas on the court certain shots should come from. I don’t think they care about that right now.

To me Barnes has always been more to a Garnett type who will focus more on defense and setting up others and will need a scorer beside him. Good news - most teams need a combination of two very good players who complement each other to win or just a a very good overall roster.

[pingpongrac]

Like a very good version of Draymond is what Scottie’s best role is imo. Do it all everything and cover on defense while the real offensive stars do the heavy lifting. Like he can certainly change that narrative someday but it’s going to take a monster offseason of improvement which we haven’t seen quite yet.

I think any comparison to Draymond is poor imo.

Draymond's best scoring season was 14ppg in his 4th season when he was 25 years old. Besides that season he has never averaged over 12ppg. He's only averaged double figures 4 of 13 seasons. He hasn't averaged double digits scoring in 7 seasons.

I think everyone agrees Scottie is not a first option/superstar scorer but there is a very, very, VERY large gap between Scottie and Draymond.

Scottie is going to be a nightly 20 point triple double threat with good to great defense. This isn't directed at you Basketball_Jones, but people need to appreciate what Scottie is versus what they wish the Raptors had, imo.

They’re pretty comparable in how they play the majority of the time. Any comparison to Draymond is not an insult at all as the guy was a triple-double threat and top 3 defender throughout GSW’s dominance in the mid-to-late 2010s. Scottie does put up more points than Draymond albeit a bit less efficiently, but people need to remember that Draymond has never really needed to score. That being said, he has stepped up when necessary in the playoffs; he averaged 13/10/7 across 104 playoff games from 2015-2019 and had some massive games in the 2016 playoffs in particular (23/13/11 and 37/9/8 vs POR then 28/7/5 and 32/15/9 vs CLE).

Scottie is unlikely to ever reach the level of defence that we saw from Draymond, but he has a bit higher of a ceiling offensively even if the efficiency numbers haven’t been promising. If he can ever give us 90% of peak Draymond defence while slightly improving his offensive game, he’d probably be a perennial all-star player. Nothing wrong with that at all, and he could still be our highest-paid player if he’s impacting the game like a star.