Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

[Laowai]

Well, the Raps have about 455 lbs of Johnson, so we're looking pretty good.

Analogy used on purpose because you can bet the Raptors are one of the leaders of the hardliners.

[from24ft]

The players just keep finding ways to screw Stern's league up, even signing the last CBA pushed on them by the owners couldn't keep them from messing up the financials.


The players were told not to worry their pretty little heads over it, and to just play basketball while the owners collect revenues and pull the financial strings. They were told, Go to China during your summer, Go to Europe, grow the market. The market since then in China is estimated at 2.1 billion and they don't even have a franchise there. Yet somehow, LBJ and Wade still messed things up by agreeing to pay cuts.


In the old days, bands would have their agents sit in front of the venue with a clicker counter to count heads, because promoters were notoriously bad at withholding revenues and figuring tricks to screw the band out their money. Everything from screwing up the sound equipment, to imaginary violations and fines were used as excuses, including the old "net income" game, where security and venue rental mysteriously ended up costing more than the show brought in and no money was left to pay out the band.


Since only one side is allowed to control the direction and finances. I think these problems will keep cropping up. I'll be honest with you guys, I would rather be the guy collecting the revenues than the guy with the clicker.


So maybe the best solution is to give the players some sort of an ownership/financial direction stake. If the business is as bad as Stern says, this is a perfect solution. The players get to eat humble pie with the owners during the lean years. They also get to have a SAY in how the club spends its revenues, since their financial stake hinges on the expenses incurred by the franchise.

I mean, if losses are such a problem, the owners should be more than happy to give the above INSTEAD of the cold CASH LOL, you know what the chances of that happening are? Slim to none... and slim is weighing dime bags on Church street.


The funny thing is, the owners want the concessions, but want to keep the box black, and want to have 100% management control. They want everything, and feel that the players should all be weeping by the violin act that Stern is putting up.


I just think, that in a nutshell, the league thinks that its fans are mindless money bags. Incapable of critical thinking. What has transpired thus far, has been an insult to my intelligence, and I am surprised that more fans are not disturbed by this. The OWNERS chose this path. If you think that this just happened, you have not been following the league. This was all planed by the league a few years back. Everyone knew that the league was not interested in getting a new deal done while the old one was in effect. The league is counting on some of its fans gullibility, financial distress and your resentment to screw over the players.

Those that take the owners side make me chuckle, because the league is not fighting for the fans, they are not on your side. The fans are the last concern on their minds, if you go by their actions. You will not get the money back that they gouged from you. Their happy its not in your wallet, in fact now that it has parted company with you, the owners just want to roll the players for more of it in an alleyway away from your prying eyes.


EDIT: BTW, the violin act that Stern is foisting, is not meant to sway Labour or Contract lawyers. None of them would be stupid enough to fall for it, its quite shameful. The violin act, is AIMED AT YOU the FANS. There is no substance in these negotiations, the only thing Stern wants to do is win public opinion and he feels he will win through attrition. No lawyer would ever take the junk paper that Stern put on the table as credible. It's not meant to be credible. It's all about STALLING, and getting the players to cave. He can put financial statements in crayola on that table, it means nothing, it will never be verified. The league is simply stalling and waiting for you the fans to put the heat on these negotiations. As the season draws near, they are banking that you will start hating the players more and more. They are hoping that you will start to compare you average salary to theirs, and consequently resent the players for it.

IMO the fans are being played worse than the players. If enough of us realize this, this self inflicted dilemma by Stern will backfire. Unfortunately, for everyone that reads my posts and agrees, there will be 10 that don't even bother hitting this thread. Counting other people's millions isn't exactly fun, on top of that, only the players numbers are known with certainty, and the league likes it like that.

[Laowai]

The players just keep finding ways to screw Stern's league up, even signing the last CBA pushed on them by the owners couldn't keep them from messing up the financials.


The players were told not to worry their pretty little heads over it, and to just play basketball while the owners collect revenues and pull the financial strings. They were told, Go to China during your summer, Go to Europe, grow the market. The market since then in China is estimated at 2.1 billion and they don't even have a franchise there. Yet somehow, LBJ and Wade still messed things up by agreeing to pay cuts.


In the old days, bands would have their agents sit in front of the venue with a clicker counter to count heads, because promoters were notoriously bad at withholding revenues and figuring tricks to screw the band out their money. Everything from screwing up the sound equipment, to imaginary violations and fines were used as excuses, including the old "net income" game, where security and venue rental mysteriously ended up costing more than the show brought in and no money was left to pay out the band.


Since only one side is allowed to control the direction and finances. I think these problems will keep cropping up. I'll be honest with you guys, I would rather be the guy collecting the revenues than the guy with the clicker.


So maybe the best solution is to give the players some sort of an ownership/financial direction stake. If the business is as bad as Stern says, this is a perfect solution. The players get to eat humble pie with the owners during the lean years. They also get to have a SAY in how the club spends its revenues, since their financial stake hinges on the expenses incurred by the franchise.

I mean, if losses are such a problem, the owners should be more than happy to give the above INSTEAD of the cold CASH LOL, you know what the chances of that happening are? Slim to none... and slim is weighing dime bags on Church street.


The funny thing is, the owners want the concessions, but want to keep the box black, and want to have 100% management control. They want everything, and feel that the players should all be weeping by the violin act that Stern is putting up.


I just think, that in a nutshell, the league thinks that its fans are mindless money bags. Incapable of critical thinking. What has transpired thus far, has been an insult to my intelligence, and I am surprised that more fans are not disturbed by this. The OWNERS chose this path. If you think that this just happened, you have not been following the league. This was all planed by the league a few years back. Everyone knew that the league was not interested in getting a new deal done while the old one was in effect. The league is counting on some of its fans gullibility, financial distress and your resentment to screw over the players.

Those that take the owners side make me chuckle, because the league is not fighting for the fans, they are not on your side. The fans are the last concern on their minds, if you go by their actions. You will not get the money back that they gouged from you. Their happy its not in your wallet, in fact now that it has parted company with you, the owners just want to roll the players for more of it in an alleyway away from your prying eyes.


EDIT: BTW, the violin act that Stern is foisting, is not meant to sway Labour or Contract lawyers. None of them would be stupid enough to fall for it, its quite shameful. The violin act, is AIMED AT YOU the FANS. There is no substance in these negotiations, the only thing Stern wants to do is win public opinion and he feels he will win through attrition. No lawyer would ever take the junk paper that Stern put on the table as credible. It's not meant to be credible. It's all about STALLING, and getting the players to cave. He can put financial statements in crayola on that table, it means nothing, it will never be verified. The league is simply stalling and waiting for you the fans to put the heat on these negotiations. As the season draws near, they are banking that you will start hating the players more and more. They are hoping that you will start to compare you average salary to theirs, and consequently resent the players for it.

IMO the fans are being played worse than the players. If enough of us realize this, this self inflicted dilemma by Stern will backfire. Unfortunately, for everyone that reads my posts and agrees, there will be 10 that don't even bother hitting this thread. Counting other people's millions isn't exactly fun, on top of that, only the players numbers are known with certainty, and the league likes it like that.

Ask Michael Jordon if he would rather be a player than a owner,
Player no contest

[from24ft]

Ask Michael Jordon if he would rather be a player than a owner,
Player no contest

Sorry I am not follow your reasoning, in fact I find your logic to be quite puzzling.

There is no "if/or" in this situation, and Jordan is both. It's not like a Genie comes up to you one day and asks you to chose one over the other.

Anyone in this game would more than love to have ownership credentials. Guys like Jordan and Magic get them, the other players never get to be in such a position. In fact, a lot of former players jump at the chance of owning NBDL teams, WNBA and sporting products of much lower calibre because they understand how lucrative the business is and love being around the game.

...if you ask a supermodel if she would like to be young and beautiful for the rest of her life, she will say yes. That still does not preclude her from knowing the value of a modelling agency.


EDIT: You can ask Jordan yourself, if he would rather try out for one of the NBA teams NOW, at his age or just be an owner. I'm confident he will pass on the tryouts. In fact, the game itself became boring to him, he was seeking much greater challenges when he was still in his prime.

EDIT2: King James for instance, has much greater plans as to what he wants to OWN. Most of these guys want ownership stakes in channels, media properties, production companies. In fact, when it comes to players, very few of them just want to be players. Artest for instance wanted to be a rapper. Manny Pacquiao wants to be a singer and has successful run for office in his homeland. ...being a player, is only the beginning of the journey for the vast majority of them.

Players are just the lowest rung of the achievement ladder in an industry that is rich with entertainment income.

[Laowai]

Michael Jordon is losing a huge amount of money owning the Bobcats.
When he was a player he got his huge salary plus all the money from endorsements.

The logic is if the average franchise is worth 250 million then you are looking at a 7.5 billion asset.
Lets say the owners are lying and they are breaking even.
43% of 3 Billion in revenue is 1.29 billion to make a 5% return they need another 375 million in income.

So I see the logic of 48% for players and 52% for teams but if I was a owner would look more at 45% for players and 55% for owners. The players have the opportunity to increase income through endorsements.

[from24ft]

Michael Jordon is losing a huge amount of money owning the Bobcats.
When he was a player he got his huge salary plus all the money from endorsements.

The logic is if the average franchise is worth 250 million then you are looking at a 7.5 billion asset.
Lets say the owners are lying and they are breaking even.
43% of 3 Billion in revenue is 1.29 billion to make a 5% return they need another 375 million in income.

So I see the logic of 48% for players and 52% for teams but if I was a owner would look more at 45% for players and 55% for owners. The players have the opportunity to increase income through endorsements.

NBA China is worth 2.1 billion alone. Your figures are just figured.

So China is worth 28% of your assumed asset value, and they don't even have a franchise. We still have not calculated Europe, South America, and the rest of Asia.


For anyone else that thinks they can just calculate how much the players should get on their home calculator, at some point you need to ask yourself are you muddying the waters? Or do you have some tactical insight that can help in this debate?

When a league does not want to release their books, you have to ask yourself why? This entire labour dispute could be solved if the full numbers were released by the league. The players don't want to take money that does not exist. Unfortunately the league is just releasing operational P/L which is useless in determining the health & value of a franchise.

[from24ft]

BTW,

Just so we understand the Jordan situation.

He paid 175 Million, and has committed 100 Million to assumption of debt. Hence the sale price to him is 275 Million.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011 ... a-champion

http://blogs.forbes.com/mikeozanian/201 ... n=20110427

This only represents 80% of the stake.


So your 250 Million dollar average franchise value, is a very bad guess. Even the worst franchise of the bunch is worth considerably more.

(...and BTW, he bought it knowing the franchise was amongst the biggest losers in the group. In fact many people questioned the sensibility of Charlotte getting a 2nd team considering the first one bolted. So the difficulty of that market situation should not surprise anyone, much less Jordan. If there is a great example of a franchise that should be contracted, the bobcats are it. Looking at them as some sort of a baseline, or health'o'meter for the NBA is incredibly naive.)

[ballerkingn2]

I just hope they work the deal out. This stuff is crazy,both are super rich make a deal.

[RapTelligence]

So out of the 450 NBA players how many have got work in Europe yet? 10$, 20%, 30% of the players?

[I_Like_Dirt]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/67935 ... r-movement

This list has 25 already committed overseas. That puts it at under 6% if you assume 15 players per team. Not every team carries a 15-man roster, though, and how a person would count various 10-day contracts makes the actual number of NBA playerse a little trickier to figure. If the lockout keeps going, there will be more that will eventually sign contracts elsewhere, especially the guys on smaller contracts that can't wait with no income, and I think quite a few of those guys will just stay overseas and the NBA will take the subsequent talent hit to the league overall.

[Raptorzzs]

The Toronto Raptors twitter is tweeting about Twilight Saga movies... This needs to end NAO

[A_wildstabatanything]

[Jer15Jer]

I never thought of that. I doubt it happens but if it kicks in next year I'd be super pissed.

[A_wildstabatanything]

Anyone want to predict the top 3-5 picks if such a scenario were to occur? I guess John Henson would go #1.

[nahom1319]

That would water down the draft way too much. No way could stern do that, this coming draft.

[Raps in 4]

That's stupid. Stern is a dbag.

[Reignman]

The owners aren't getting everything they want, especially if a hard cap is their ultimate goal.

[A_wildstabatanything]

That would water down the draft way too much. No way could stern do that, this coming draft.

They could "justify" it if no games are played to determine the draft order.

[Los Manos]

I can't see that ever happening. Unlike football, basketball is a global sport and if you restrict players from being able to earn a pay cheque until they're 21, your most talented 18,19,20 year olds will take the money in Europe and other parts of the world, weakening the NCAA. Stern does not want that.

[ronleroy]

its called negotiation, 3 years will probably turn in 2 or keep it at 1. This one will probably be conceded to the players, but money wise, owners want more.