The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

[billy_hoyle]

Basically, Kuminga is a boom or bust prospect, but for Vecenie his ceiling is higher than Barnes.

For all the people who believe Barnes has a higher ceiling than Suggs, it's actually Kuminga who has much more of the big time wing scorer profile than Barnes does and it's not like he is a slouch defensively.

they are actually aren't even close defensively. Kuminga's defensive awareness off the ball is really bad and he's a bad defensive rebounder.
don't even get me started on the ball.

Vecenie on Kuminga's on ball defense:

His on-ball defense when he was locked in was indicative of a potential shut-down defender.

Yep. I watched 3 of the Warriors SL games. I thought Kuminga showed promise as an on ball defender, however, as vulture stated, off ball defence is a massive component to overall defence, and Barnes looked phenomenal in this aspect. No real comment on Kuminga, but Barnes is a likely a different category of defender based on the total defensive impact.

Kuminga looked like he had the highest offensive upside out of everyone I watched (Green included).

[mademan]

How do you win without a go to scorer?

Suggs is a go to scorer?

I didn’t mention Suggs but this idea that Scottie and the team that can’t score is something formidable is confusing.

Minus literally the Pistons, every single team that has won a title has had a big time scorer.

Duncan was the best defensive player in basketball along with scoring 20PPG. Don’t see any of those on our roster.

sure, but this year 1 of a rebuild. What did you expect, to have the entire team ready to compete within 1 year?

[mademan]

they are actually aren't even close defensively. Kuminga's defensive awareness off the ball is really bad and he's a bad defensive rebounder.
don't even get me started on the ball.

Vecenie on Kuminga's on ball defense:

His on-ball defense when he was locked in was indicative of a potential shut-down defender.

Yep. I watched 3 of the Warriors SL games. I thought Kuminga showed promise as an on ball defender, however, as vulture stated, off ball defence is a massive component to overall defence, and Barnes looked phenomenal in this aspect. No real comment on Kuminga, but Barnes is a likely a different category of defender based on the total defensive impact.

Kuminga looked like he had the highest offensive upside out of everyone I watched (Green included).

eh, Green and Kuminga had an advantage in that they played the entire year in G-league in a similar format and against better comp.

Kuminga's case is actually hilarious. I remember telling people before the draft they were being too hard on him based solely on stats but he goes and puts up eerily similar stats up in summer league and for some reason his profile rose. This is literally who he was in the G-league. There's no reason to like him more or less based on his summer league play

[billy_hoyle]

Vecenie on Kuminga's on ball defense:

Yep. I watched 3 of the Warriors SL games. I thought Kuminga showed promise as an on ball defender, however, as vulture stated, off ball defence is a massive component to overall defence, and Barnes looked phenomenal in this aspect. No real comment on Kuminga, but Barnes is a likely a different category of defender based on the total defensive impact.

Kuminga looked like he had the highest offensive upside out of everyone I watched (Green included).

eh, Green and Kuminga had an advantage in that they played the entire year in G-league in a similar format and against better comp.

Kuminga's case is actually hilarious. I remember telling people before the draft they were being too hard on him based solely on stats but he goes and puts up eerily similar stats up in summer league and for some reason his profile rose. This is literally who he was in the G-league. There's no reason to like him more or less based on his summer league play

I don't agree with your final point. Personally, I only watched highlights of g league games (likewise I only watched highlights of most college players games).

I hadn't seen what these dudes would look like against other high end players over the course of entire games.

Now I do, and in Kumingas case, I think he consistently shows flashes of physical explosiveness. Meaning, he's able to make alot of different types of plays at a high level.

That's an important point for me when I
make projections. Some guys look explosive in a certain narrow range of plays, being able to do it in many situations bodes well to me.

[mademan]

Yep. I watched 3 of the Warriors SL games. I thought Kuminga showed promise as an on ball defender, however, as vulture stated, off ball defence is a massive component to overall defence, and Barnes looked phenomenal in this aspect. No real comment on Kuminga, but Barnes is a likely a different category of defender based on the total defensive impact.

Kuminga looked like he had the highest offensive upside out of everyone I watched (Green included).

eh, Green and Kuminga had an advantage in that they played the entire year in G-league in a similar format and against better comp.

Kuminga's case is actually hilarious. I remember telling people before the draft they were being too hard on him based solely on stats but he goes and puts up eerily similar stats up in summer league and for some reason his profile rose. This is literally who he was in the G-league. There's no reason to like him more or less based on his summer league play

I don't agree with your final point. Personally, I only watched highlights of g league games (likewise I only watched highlights of most college players games).

I hadn't seen what these dudes would look like against other high end players over the course of entire games.

Now I do, and in Kumingas case, I think he consistently shows flashes of physical explosiveness. Meaning, he's able to make alot of different types of plays at a high level.

That's an important point for me when I
make projections. Some guys look explosive in a certain narrow range of plays, being able to do it in many situations bodes well to me.

Im not sure what there is to disagree on. All i said was is that Kuminga was the same guy in G-league that he was in summer league, even tho everybody seemed super bearish on him.

G league: 16/7/3 on 46/25/63
Summer L: 17/6/2 on 37/28/65

I was one of the few people who was on this board saying that guys were too hard on him. He's inefficient but he's a big wing with good form on his shot and decent slashing ability. He can be crafted. I just have no idea why anybody would feel different about him if they watched G-league and summer league. He's the same player he was before the draft

[Jerry Lucas]

Barnes vs Suggs head to head on October 29th, December 20th and April 1st.

[brownbobcat]

Minus literally the Pistons, every single team that has won a title has had a big time scorer.

Duncan was the best defensive player in basketball along with scoring 20PPG. Don’t see any of those on our roster.

Spurs didn't have a big time scorer on the 2014 championship team.

[billy_hoyle]

eh, Green and Kuminga had an advantage in that they played the entire year in G-league in a similar format and against better comp.

Kuminga's case is actually hilarious. I remember telling people before the draft they were being too hard on him based solely on stats but he goes and puts up eerily similar stats up in summer league and for some reason his profile rose. This is literally who he was in the G-league. There's no reason to like him more or less based on his summer league play

I don't agree with your final point. Personally, I only watched highlights of g league games (likewise I only watched highlights of most college players games).

I hadn't seen what these dudes would look like against other high end players over the course of entire games.

Now I do, and in Kumingas case, I think he consistently shows flashes of physical explosiveness. Meaning, he's able to make alot of different types of plays at a high level.

That's an important point for me when I
make projections. Some guys look explosive in a certain narrow range of plays, being able to do it in many situations bodes well to me.

Im not sure what there is to disagree on. All i said was is that Kuminga was the same guy in G-league that he was in summer league, even tho everybody seemed super bearish on him.

G league: 16/7/3 on 46/25/63
Summer L: 17/6/2 on 37/28/65

I was one of the few people who was on this board saying that guys were too hard on him. He's inefficient but he's a big wing with good form on his shot and decent slashing ability. He can be crafted. I just have no idea why anybody would feel different about him if they watched G-league and summer league. He's the same player he was before the draft

Your point is, if I'm not mistaken, that people shouldn't change their opinion on Kuminga based on summer league.

You showed stats between the two leagues to make a case that nothing has changed.

I'm saying that entire premise doesn't make sense.

1. Because most people didn't get to watch full games prior to summer league. Even if they had, it wasn't against comparable competition

2. When comparing prospects highlight reels, it's important to know how often they are able to do these sort of athletic stand out plays. This is the 'everyone looks good in their highlights' point.

3. Cumulative numbers (averages, and efficiencies) don't convey or account for either of the points above.

[Pointgod]

Can you post the Kuminga comparison and Barnes?

He wasn’t nearly as consistent overall as Scottie Barnes, but the flashes in the halfcourt as a creator were better, in my view. Whether you felt one or the other had a better summer league is dependent purely upon how you evaluate an event like this. Are you looking for tools, or are you looking for consistent performance day in, day out.

Basically, Kuminga is a boom or bust prospect, but for Vecenie his ceiling is higher than Barnes.

For all the people who believe Barnes has a higher ceiling than Suggs, it's actually Kuminga who has much more of the big time wing scorer profile than Barnes does and it's not like he is a slouch defensively.

Fairly accurate in terms of Kuminga being a creator and aggressive but Barnes pretty much has him beat at everything else

[Pointgod]

Vecenie on Kuminga's on ball defense:

Yep. I watched 3 of the Warriors SL games. I thought Kuminga showed promise as an on ball defender, however, as vulture stated, off ball defence is a massive component to overall defence, and Barnes looked phenomenal in this aspect. No real comment on Kuminga, but Barnes is a likely a different category of defender based on the total defensive impact.

Kuminga looked like he had the highest offensive upside out of everyone I watched (Green included).

eh, Green and Kuminga had an advantage in that they played the entire year in G-league in a similar format and against better comp.

Kuminga's case is actually hilarious. I remember telling people before the draft they were being too hard on him based solely on stats but he goes and puts up eerily similar stats up in summer league and for some reason his profile rose. This is literally who he was in the G-league. There's no reason to like him more or less based on his summer league play

Kuminga’s an example that stats don’t always tell the whole story. I was a Kuminga doubter prior to the draft but you have to watch him play to really see the explosiveness, aggressiveness and shot creation first hand. He’s far from a developed shooter.

[billy_hoyle]

Yep. I watched 3 of the Warriors SL games. I thought Kuminga showed promise as an on ball defender, however, as vulture stated, off ball defence is a massive component to overall defence, and Barnes looked phenomenal in this aspect. No real comment on Kuminga, but Barnes is a likely a different category of defender based on the total defensive impact.

Kuminga looked like he had the highest offensive upside out of everyone I watched (Green included).

eh, Green and Kuminga had an advantage in that they played the entire year in G-league in a similar format and against better comp.

Kuminga's case is actually hilarious. I remember telling people before the draft they were being too hard on him based solely on stats but he goes and puts up eerily similar stats up in summer league and for some reason his profile rose. This is literally who he was in the G-league. There's no reason to like him more or less based on his summer league play

Kuminga’s an example that stats don’t always tell the whole story. I was a Kuminga doubter prior to the draft but you have to watch him play to really see the explosiveness, aggressiveness and shot creation first hand. He’s far from a developed shooter.

Agreed with this point. You need to see him play. Stats don't tell the story with him.

[Raps in 4]

But on the Raptors -a team that is not in a full rebuild, and already has established offensive weapons on the team

That's actually exactly what the Raptors don't have. We have a trio of secondary/tertiary scorers in Pascal, OG, and Fred but lack a primary scoring option. We absolutely need Barnes to develop into that player.

I want a guy who's going to fit in to the culture the team already has, rather than someone coming in and trying to change it.

Suggs would have fit our culture to a tee. He's an excellent defender with a gritty overall playstyle.

[Los_29]

Kuminga is a very good athlete but that's never been an issue. The issue is his lack of feel for the game. Another issue is his age. Dean Demarkis had an interesting piece on it here:

"But the second challenge is that it is not clear that he is actually 18 years old. He was born in Democratic Republic of Congo where only 25% of kids are born with birth certificates, and didn’t move to America until 2016 when he should have received advice to lie about his age to maximize his odds of an NBA future.

And there is a HUGE difference between 18 vs 19 vs 20, especially for a kid like Kuminga who you are betting on to make a major leap in skill level. So if he is 18, it is completely reasonable to take him in the #5-7 range as he is currently projected. But if he is 19, he takes a hit to his stock and perhaps belongs in the mid-1st. And if he is 20, he likely belongs in round 2. And if he is 21+, then he arguably does not deserve to be drafted.

Personally, I have no idea what the odds of each outcome actually are. Whatever NBA team that drafts him needs to be diligent on their intelligence regarding his age, because being wrong is very costly."

[billy_hoyle]

But on the Raptors -a team that is not in a full rebuild, and already has established offensive weapons on the team

That's actually exactly what the Raptors don't have. We have a trio of secondary/tertiary scorers in Pascal, OG, and Fred but lack a primary scoring option. We absolutely need Barnes to develop into that player.

I want a guy who's going to fit in to the culture the team already has, rather than someone coming in and trying to change it.

Suggs would have fit our culture to a tee. He's an excellent defender with a gritty overall playstyle.

I love Suggs for this team too, but I'm not sure he will be a high end primary scoring option. If he's not, maybe Barnes IS the better pick.

[disoblige]

Good time to bump

[Madhouse]

This thread is shaping up to be an all timer.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

A lot of people jumping on the bandwagon.. poll would be more embarrassing before we drafted him

[GordanFreeman]

Everyone who was crying and wailing in this thread line up for your serving of dung...single file please. Some of y'all keep coming back for more, amazing.
For the record, I was initially upset with the pick. But I quickly got over it cause in 'Masai we trust!'

[WeTheNorth123]

Not going to lie, On draft day i wanted Suggs over Barnes

[GordanFreeman]

A lot of people jumping on the bandwagon.. poll would be more embarrassing before we drafted him

Not a scientific guess, but probably 80%+ of this board wanted Suggs. Most ppl were shocked when we picked Barnes.
But once the pick was made, we became team Barnes. A few continued to wail hysterically though. You just gotta trust the best scout in the game, the OG, the Messiah.