Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league

[Boogie!]

Let Gradey worry about being better than Battle, JKW and Ochai before we need to have any convo about replacing a starter. And this cones from someone who still believes that Gradey can be an important rotation pieces someday.

I still don’t understand why people are so high on gradey…

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It's hard to build a winning situation out of under-performers. Somebody has to be out performing their contract.

This remains irrelevant, and you continue to fail to address the large difference in actual on-court value between IQ and Gradey.

Putting a much worse player in the starting lineup because he's cheaper isn't intelligent. It isn't savvy. It undercuts the team's ability to win. It's not as if we wouldn't be giving Gradey minutes off the bench, but yeah. You undercut our defense, you worsen our overall 3pt threat, you weaken our playmaking ability... we literally get worse at EVERY aspect of the game by playing Gradey more minutes than IQ.

In a season where we are obviously trying to win, it would be sinfully foolish to start Dick over Quickley.

We've got five starters on bad contracts right now. If not Dick, then where does the growth come from?

[tsherkin]

We've got five starters on bad contracts right now. If not Dick, then where does the growth come from?

My guy, stop talking about contracts. They are not relevant.

We start Quick. We bring Gradey off the bench. We see how his development goes. We don't start eating wall candy just because groceries got expensive, that's not how this works.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

We've got five starters on bad contracts right now. If not Dick, then where does the growth come from?

My guy, stop talking about contracts. They are not relevant.

We start Quick. We bring Gradey off the bench. We see how his development goes. We don't start eating wall candy just because groceries got expensive, that's not how this works.

Did you see what it cost to get off MPJ? It matters.

[tsherkin]

Did you see what it cost to get off MPJ? It matters.

Not this season, no it doesn't. Not unless we get a good deal. And if MPJ had been healthy in the OKC series, that discussion would be very different, I suspect. Meantime, IQ is a more dynamic player than MPJ, who did essentially nothing but C+S and score in transition.

None of this math leads to "start the worse of the two players for no sane tactical reason before moving the other guy."

If we move IQ and don't someone better than Gradey in return, which would be remarkably stupid, only then would it make sense to start GD.

[JB7]

We've got five starters on bad contracts right now. If not Dick, then where does the growth come from?

My guy, stop talking about contracts. They are not relevant.

We start Quick. We bring Gradey off the bench. We see how his development goes. We don't start eating wall candy just because groceries got expensive, that's not how this works.

Did you see what it cost to get off MPJ? It matters.

Denver needs to do something now. That’s why that deal happened, and even then they didn’t give up much to get off MPJ’s deal.

Raps have 2 years with these guys. Only guy expiring next year is Ochai. But 2 years from now, RJ’s deal is up, and BI can opt out. And they have then Dick, Shead, Mogbo and Battle to decide on, with their deals up. A lot of flexibility. This team is just trying to build and get better. No pressure to win (in the playoffs) right now.

[Boogie!]

People love latching on to media talking points. Seriously who gives a **** about their contracts we’re looking for production and wins people talk about contracts like the money is coming out of their pockets.

[Merit]

Maybe let IQ play a few healthy games in a non-tank environment before you get all worked up over “under performers”.

Why wait, is there a market? Probably not at this point.

What are you even talking about?

We have gone so far from comparing BI and Gradey.

BI is better in every facet of the game than Gradey. Offensively, defensively, passing, shooting.

[Merit]

We've got five starters on bad contracts right now. If not Dick, then where does the growth come from?

My guy, stop talking about contracts. They are not relevant.

We start Quick. We bring Gradey off the bench. We see how his development goes. We don't start eating wall candy just because groceries got expensive, that's not how this works.

Did you see what it cost to get off MPJ? It matters.

I feel like you keep jumping from argument to argument in the hopes one sticks. Like let’s get back to the original discussion. I know it’s tempting to shift the discussion to other things, but like in a real life relationship, if we keep bringing up every single past hurt in every new argument, then we can never recover from resentment.

[tsherkin]

I was about to post a pair of recent Barnes articles, but the optimistic one from Raptors HQ doesn't exist anymore, the whole site appears down.

The other one, which is from June 12th: Here

The Raptors HQ article was about how Mamu could unlock the court for Barnes.

Instead, have an SI article from a week ago about a random 3-team trade which sends Barnes to San Antonio and brings back De'Aaron Fox. Probably out of date now that Fox has signed his extension, though. Here.

[GLF]

I was about to post a pair of recent Barnes articles, but the optimistic one from Raptors HQ doesn't exist anymore, the whole site appears down.

The other one, which is from June 12th: Here

The Raptors HQ article was about how Mamu could unlock the court for Barnes.

Instead, have an SI article from a week ago about a random 3-team trade which sends Barnes to San Antonio and brings back De'Aaron Fox. Probably out of date now that Fox has signed his extension, though. Here.

Thanks for sharing. I found the Mamu article which was good. It seems Raptors HQ is up and running now and it’s toward the bottom of the home page (I don’t know how to post links in here haha). That first article you posted though was horrible lol. All it said was Scottie isn’t a number 1 option but is still a good player lol. That isn’t breaking news to anyone. It was also so short and barely went into any details. The people at Raptors HQ and Raptors Republic are much better writers. They go into more detail, provide video sometimes and provide stats usually as well. I’ve literally never even heard of this Raptors Rapture before. I must be late to the party, but after that article I probably won’t be reading anything from that site again.

[tsherkin]

It seems Raptors HQ is up and running now

Ah, so it is!

Here

That first article you posted though was horrible lol. All it said was Scottie isn’t a number 1 option but is still a good player lol.

Yeah. I just wanted to get conversation back on the subject of Scottie somehow, lol.

Not a lot of new information floating around at the moment, which is about where we're likely to stay in the absence of another transaction until at leas the preseason. Which is kind of bawlz, of course. Impatience does grow. xD

[TravisScott55]

People love latching on to media talking points. Seriously who gives a **** about their contracts we’re looking for production and wins people talk about contracts like the money is coming out of their pockets.

Because it matters when it comes to flexibility when making trades

[tsherkin]

People love latching on to media talking points. Seriously who gives a **** about their contracts we’re looking for production and wins people talk about contracts like the money is coming out of their pockets.

Because it matters when it comes to flexibility when making trades

It doesn't really matter to who should and should not be in the starting lineup, though, which is what that conversation was about. It's completely irrelevant to that component.

[The Servant]

36% of your fans think Scottie is in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis...

People love latching on to media talking points. Seriously who gives a **** about their contracts we’re looking for production and wins people talk about contracts like the money is coming out of their pockets.

All it takes is one bad contract given out to a player like Kendrick Perkins on your roster to prevent you from resigning an up and coming piece like James Harden. That is why people talk about contracts.

[YogurtProducer]

36% of your fans think Scottie is in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis...

36% of our fans a year ago think Scottie COULD become a #1 option player.

That is SIGNIFICANTLY different than saying he is in a league with those guys. and FWIW, I voted "no", but coming onto our board and trying to bait isn't the play probably

The irony of your post is that outside of Luka, there were definitely major question marks if Jokic/SGA/Giannis could have been #1 option superstars as well when they were the same age/experience as Barnes.

[TravisScott55]

People love latching on to media talking points. Seriously who gives a **** about their contracts we’re looking for production and wins people talk about contracts like the money is coming out of their pockets.

Because it matters when it comes to flexibility when making trades

It doesn't really matter to who should and should not be in the starting lineup, though, which is what that conversation was about. It's completely irrelevant to that component.

Those 2 conversations go hand in hand though

[tsherkin]

Those 2 conversations go hand in hand though

In no way at all, no they do not.

[TheGeneral99]

36% of your fans think Scottie is in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis...

People love latching on to media talking points. Seriously who gives a **** about their contracts we’re looking for production and wins people talk about contracts like the money is coming out of their pockets.

All it takes is one bad contract given out to a player like Kendrick Perkins on your roster to prevent you from resigning an up and coming piece like James Harden. That is why people talk about contracts.

1) No one here is saying that Scottie is in league with MVP caliber players, the question is whether he has the potential to become a #1 option star.

2) You can be a #1 option without being a top 5 player...many people would argue that guys like Tatum, Mitchell, Haliburton, Butler, Brunson, Cunningham, Edwards, Booker etc. are solid #1 options, despite not being in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis.

3) There has been a ton of constructive debate in this thread over whether Scottie can be a high-level #2 option or if he is best suited as a #3 option or highly level role player.

The future is hard to predict, remember that Shai in 2022, at 23 years old, had not even made an all-star team and averaged 24ppg on 45%fg and 30%3fg on a terrible team. People thought Shai will be a future all-star but few predicted he would become an MVP level superstar.

[tsherkin]

1) No one here is saying that Scottie is in league with MVP caliber players, the question is whether he has the potential to become a #1 option star.

2) You can be a #1 option without being a top 5 player...many people would argue that guys like Tatum, Mitchell, Haliburton, Butler, Brunson, Cunningham, Edwards, Booker etc. are solid #1 options, despite not being in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis.

The OP specifically used the word "superstar," which does change the tone of the conversation some. But in general, a guy like Barnes is a terribly poor choice to use as a focal piece for an offense. He has other uses. He has other potential. For example, he has the potential to not be a historically-bad scoring threat this season and going forward, now that we're opening up the floor with more shooting, and perhaps less self-creation responsibility. A little more passing support could go a very long way to making him a more useful piece on offense. Getting him to stop taking ATB 3s would be another marvelous improvement for his game. Specific use case is so important for most players. Guys who aren't superstar offensive players, you can't just throw them in the pot and hope for the best, you have to position them for best success.

Look at Pascal. He's a very good player, but he NEEDS shots in certain places and lots of passing support for him to become an efficient player and be more useful at mid-volume scoring. With Scottie, it sounds like we need him around 10-12 FGA/g with a healthy dose of passing support and a high proportion of transition action. And we seem positioned to do that this year, which is good.

It's very clear that he hasn't shown anything resembling what it takes to be a legitimate focal option on offense. He can't handle scoring volume and he isn't an ATG playmaker, doesn't have elite athleticism, doesn't have the jumper, doesn't have the elite on-ball game, doesn't have the consistent ability to get to the rim, etc, etc. He's just missing the pieces it takes to get there. It's all "doesn't have" with him, within the specific parameters of "can you land the focal responsibility for an offense on his shoulders." And that's about as expected based on what literally everyone was saying ahead of the draft. He can't shoot, he isn't a scorer, that's not where his strengths lie. Us shoehorning him into the role just to see while we tank is something else, and it's an experiment which now needs to end.

The future is hard to predict, remember that Shai in 2022, at 23 years old, had not even made an all-star team and averaged 24ppg on 45%fg and 30%3fg on a terrible team.

At 22, he'd averaged 24/5/6 on 109 TS+ (62.3% TS) in his abbreviated season. A year later, he had another injury-interrupted season and backslid a bunch on his short game and struggled from 3. But he already showing elite ability to get to the rim and draw fouls, was showcasing his passing, etc. By the time he finished the 21-22 season (his age-23 season), it was pretty clear that he was going to be an extremely good player. He certainly broke out a year later, but he'd been flashing the pieces for a couple seasons already.

That's quite a different scenario from Barnes. It'd be really difficult to go hunting and find someone missing so many of the different tools which go into elite offensive play who suddenly became a worthwhile #1. Like, even if you look at Demar's incremental improvement over aeons and aeons of basketball, he never turned into a guy who was a really quality choice as a focal player. He, like Siakam, ultimately led us in volume, but it was Lowry who was the real engine of our offense.