Collin Murray-Boyles Thread

[HumbleRen]

30 ppg scorers don’t suddenly become passive lmao.

But you think 30ppg are so technically challenged they suddenly cant score?

His first year in Miami, Lebron averaged:
26.7ppg, on 18.8fga and 8.4fta in the regular season
26.0ppg on 18.9fga and 9.1fta in the first 3 rounds
17.8ppg on 15.0fga and 3.3fta in the finals against DAL (despite playing 43.7 minutes per game)

If you normalize the minutes, he went from 17.4fga/36 to 12.3fga/36. 100% the definition of going passive.

And you cant even say he "figured it out", because in the next season he averaged 27.1ppg on 18.9fga on the same efficiency, but in the finals he didn't falter in the big moment.

Come on man. This is insanity to try and write Lebron as a technically challenged player

I’m just shocked that you think players just have 0 flaws from even mvp caliber players when they’re in their early 20’s.

Lebron spent the off season working with Hakeem to work on those technical skills that he was lacking immediately after that finals loss. He became a much more effective post player due to the training.

I’m not saying he had 0 technical ability or anything like that, it was just a big enough weakness that great teams exploited it when he was younger, it’s just objectively true.

[HumbleRen]

30 ppg scorers don’t suddenly become passive lmao.

But you think 30ppg are so technically challenged they suddenly cant score?

His first year in Miami, Lebron averaged:
26.7ppg, on 18.8fga and 8.4fta in the regular season
26.0ppg on 18.9fga and 9.1fta in the first 3 rounds
17.8ppg on 15.0fga and 3.3fta in the finals against DAL (despite playing 43.7 minutes per game)

If you normalize the minutes, he went from 17.4fga/36 to 12.3fga/36. 100% the definition of going passive.

And you cant even say he "figured it out", because in the next season he averaged 27.1ppg on 18.9fga on the same efficiency, but in the finals he didn't falter in the big moment.

Come on man. This is insanity to try and write Lebron as a technically challenged player

The "technical ability" HunbleRen is speaking to was Lebron's lack of counters to overloading the strong side in zone. That's what Boston did to him in '08 & '10, and that's what Mavs did to him in '11. Boston didn't play zone nearly as much as Mavs did, but it forced Bron to either shoot over or give the ball up and carve out post position to get it back. He wasn't great at either, and even talked about working on those things (during lockout) in the movie he did with Bill Hader in addition to various interviews. It's absolutely true that Lebron made skill improvements between '11 & '12 that gave him better counters for aggresive zones.

Thank you! You said it much more concise than I did lol.

[YogurtProducer]

But you think 30ppg are so technically challenged they suddenly cant score?

His first year in Miami, Lebron averaged:
26.7ppg, on 18.8fga and 8.4fta in the regular season
26.0ppg on 18.9fga and 9.1fta in the first 3 rounds
17.8ppg on 15.0fga and 3.3fta in the finals against DAL (despite playing 43.7 minutes per game)

If you normalize the minutes, he went from 17.4fga/36 to 12.3fga/36. 100% the definition of going passive.

And you cant even say he "figured it out", because in the next season he averaged 27.1ppg on 18.9fga on the same efficiency, but in the finals he didn't falter in the big moment.

Come on man. This is insanity to try and write Lebron as a technically challenged player

The "technical ability" HunbleRen is speaking to was Lebron's lack of counters to overloading the strong side in zone. That's what Boston did to him in '08 & '10, and that's what Mavs did to him in '11. Boston didn't play zone nearly as much as Mavs did, but it forced Bron to either shoot over or give the ball up and carve out post position to get it back. He wasn't great at either, and even talked about working on those things (during lockout) in the movie he did with Bill Hader in addition to various interviews. It's absolutely true that Lebron made skill improvements between '11 & '12 that gave him better counters for aggresive zones.

Thank you! You said it much more concise than I did lol.

Well, he said something with actual substance

All you said was he lacked technical ability.

[YogurtProducer]

The "technical ability" HunbleRen is speaking to was Lebron's lack of counters to overloading the strong side in zone. That's what Boston did to him in '08 & '10, and that's what Mavs did to him in '11. Boston didn't play zone nearly as much as Mavs did, but it forced Bron to either shoot over or give the ball up and carve out post position to get it back. He wasn't great at either, and even talked about working on those things (during lockout) in the movie he did with Bill Hader in addition to various interviews. It's absolutely true that Lebron made skill improvements between '11 & '12 that made him a much more complete player.

Sure, but he also averaged 27/6/7 and 27/9/3 in those BOS series' (on , compared to 18/7/7 against DAL where he just decided to go super passive mode (and dominated that same BOS team in 2011 as well).

I have no idea what any of this has to do with CMB.

IDK - something about his vertical and how apparently vertical is the epitome of NBA athleticism.

[HumbleRen]

The "technical ability" HunbleRen is speaking to was Lebron's lack of counters to overloading the strong side in zone. That's what Boston did to him in '08 & '10, and that's what Mavs did to him in '11. Boston didn't play zone nearly as much as Mavs did, but it forced Bron to either shoot over or give the ball up and carve out post position to get it back. He wasn't great at either, and even talked about working on those things (during lockout) in the movie he did with Bill Hader in addition to various interviews. It's absolutely true that Lebron made skill improvements between '11 & '12 that gave him better counters for aggresive zones.

Thank you! You said it much more concise than I did lol.

Well, he said something with actual substance

All you said was he lacked technical ability.

I thought it was just pretty obvious to basketball fans who know their history like yourself that Lebron had to make a lot of improvements in his technical skills to become the complete player he eventually became.

Silly me for assuming that. I didn’t think you would actually think I was saying Lebron had 0 technical ability.

[HumbleRen]

As for how this relates to CMB. I was just simply saying having vertical explosiveness would help hide the issues CMB and Scottie both have with their lack of shooting ability.

Didn’t think that would be a hot take, I thought it was just common sense lol.

[dTox]

Thank you! You said it much more concise than I did lol.

Well, he said something with actual substance

All you said was he lacked technical ability.

I thought it was just pretty obvious to basketball fans who know their history like yourself that Lebron had to make a lot of improvements in his technical skills to become the complete player he eventually became.

Silly me for assuming that. I didn’t think you would actually think I was saying Lebron had 0 technical ability.

For those who want to get into the weeds of this, here's a good clip of Cuban (hilariously) destroying Skip many years ago, but the reason I'm sharing this, is that Cuban goes into detail on what Lebron's weaknesses were during that series against the Mavs (and how the Mavs purposefully exploited it over and over), and the following year, Lebron adjusted to it.

Watch on YouTube

[HumbleRen]

Well, he said something with actual substance

All you said was he lacked technical ability.

I thought it was just pretty obvious to basketball fans who know their history like yourself that Lebron had to make a lot of improvements in his technical skills to become the complete player he eventually became.

Silly me for assuming that. I didn’t think you would actually think I was saying Lebron had 0 technical ability.

For those who want to get into the weeds of this, here's a good clip of Cuban (hilariously) destroying Skip many years ago, but the reason I'm sharing this, is that Cuban goes into detail on what Lebron's weaknesses were during that series against the Mavs (and how the Mavs purposefully exploited it over and over), and the following year, Lebron adjusted to it.

Watch on YouTube

Love that from Cuban. I hated the “passive” excuse too.

[VanWest82]

Sure, but he also averaged 27/6/7 and 27/9/3 in those BOS series' (on , compared to 18/7/7 against DAL where he just decided to go super passive mode (and dominated that same BOS team in 2011 as well).

2011 KG was hurt. Some of it is certainly jimmys and joes.

2008 Celtics played more man than zone (but mixed in zone) and forced Lebron into jumpers similar to 2007 Finals vs. Spurs. Lebron shot 35% that series.

2010 Celtics played more man in the first few games of the series and Lebron did well against it. Last three games they started bringing over Sheed and Big Baby more to flood the strong side and Lebron started turning the ball over and missing jumpers when forced to shoot over the top of the defense.

2011 Mavs went way further with zone concepts and percentage of time in zone than Celtics did in any of their series and Lebron had the most trouble with it. It was a brewing issue that was many years in the making that finally culminated during 2011 Finals, and it was because Lebron's jumper wasn't consistent and because he lacked refinement in his post game. This is the main reason why I don't take the "2009 was Lebron's prime" opinions seriously. He was a terrific player that had actual holes in his game that could be schemed around (just didn't happen in 2009).

[dTox]

2013-2017 in my POV were LeBron's real peak years, that 4 yr run could be debatable as the best 4 yr run of all time, or at least, second best.

[dballislife]

you literally dont have to run a single play for him and he will go with the flow and put up nice stats...hes so young and not even good yet...crazy to imagine how good he could be in a couple of years

[mtcan]

you literally dont have to run a single play for him and he will go with the flow and put up nice stats...hes so young and not even good yet...crazy to imagine how good he could be in a couple of years

This is exactly what we said about Scottie years ago.

[nikster]

you literally dont have to run a single play for him and he will go with the flow and put up nice stats...hes so young and not even good yet...crazy to imagine how good he could be in a couple of years

This is exactly what we said about Scottie years ago.

And Scottie has made an all star game... scottie just had different expectations because of being a higher pick and then eventually his max contract. If CMB ends up like Scottie thats great

[HumbleRen]

you literally dont have to run a single play for him and he will go with the flow and put up nice stats...hes so young and not even good yet...crazy to imagine how good he could be in a couple of years

I’m not sure CMB will ever reach all nba status but I think the major difference between him and Scottie is that CMB as a rookie is already significantly better at driving, screening and being a stronger ball handler than 5th year Scottie.

I think CMB could definitely average 15 if he played as much minutes as rookie Scottie did.

[HangTime]

He may be closer in line with 6th man of year than rookie of the year.

Last time it happened, Ben Gordon in 2005

Arvydas Sabonis was runner up for both rookie of the year and 6th man of the year, in 1996. Advance show he should have both.

[MoneyBall]

Well, he said something with actual substance

All you said was he lacked technical ability.

I thought it was just pretty obvious to basketball fans who know their history like yourself that Lebron had to make a lot of improvements in his technical skills to become the complete player he eventually became.

Silly me for assuming that. I didn’t think you would actually think I was saying Lebron had 0 technical ability.

For those who want to get into the weeds of this, here's a good clip of Cuban (hilariously) destroying Skip many years ago, but the reason I'm sharing this, is that Cuban goes into detail on what Lebron's weaknesses were during that series against the Mavs (and how the Mavs purposefully exploited it over and over), and the following year, Lebron adjusted to it.

Watch on YouTube

That was highly enjoyable to watch, thanks for sharing.

[DreamTeam09]

His scoring at the rim on DRIVES is something that he may need to improve upon entering the NBA. In college, that was a speciality of his, first 2 games he's had some tough drives, at least from memory neway. Love him on the team & the fit tho. I'll continue to remind myself that I wasn't in on him pre-draft because of fit purposes, but he's so versatile, the fact that we can get away with him at the 5 play him at 4 & even the 3 if we wanted makes him fit like a glove. I fancy myself as a good draft prognosticator but I didn't even really had him on my radar smh

[ATLTimekeeper]

His scoring at the rim on DRIVES is something that he may need to improve upon entering the NBA. In college, that was a speciality of his, first 2 games he's had some tough drives, at least from memory neway. Love him on the team & the fit tho. I'll continue to remind myself that I wasn't in on him pre-draft because of fit purposes, but he's so versatile, the fact that we can get away with him at the 5 play him at 4 & even the 3 if we wanted makes him fit like a glove. I fancy myself as a good draft prognosticator but I didn't even really had him on my radar smh

The first game he had two lay-ups driving in from the 3PT line. He had a few misses against Sacramento. I agree he doesn't look like he has the speed and control down yet to weaponize it. So far through a couple of pre-season and summer league games a fair bit of his college offense hasn't translated, but his passing looks like it was underrated. He really looks like he fits this team and that bench unit like a glove.

[MightyMouse10]

2013-2017 in my POV were LeBron's real peak years, that 4 yr run could be debatable as the best 4 yr run of all time, or at least, second best.

Agree to this point. One caveat. I wish we saw more 2007 Lebron when he went off on the Pistons. I think what makes Lebron's career short of being GOAT is he lacked the aggressiveness he had in that series. Part of this is circumstance in roster construction, which was his own choice. I feel like we were robbed of actually seeing that level of aggression from him. Without a doubt 2013-2017 that Lebron was so dominant. Imagine we saw that version of bron matched with the aggression of 2007.

[HumbleRen]

His scoring at the rim on DRIVES is something that he may need to improve upon entering the NBA. In college, that was a speciality of his, first 2 games he's had some tough drives, at least from memory neway. Love him on the team & the fit tho. I'll continue to remind myself that I wasn't in on him pre-draft because of fit purposes, but he's so versatile, the fact that we can get away with him at the 5 play him at 4 & even the 3 if we wanted makes him fit like a glove. I fancy myself as a good draft prognosticator but I didn't even really had him on my radar smh

The first game he had two lay-ups driving in from the 3PT line. He had a few misses against Sacramento. I agree he doesn't look like he has the speed and control down yet to weaponize it. So far through a couple of pre-season and summer league games a fair bit of his college offense hasn't translated, but his passing looks like it was underrated. He really looks like he fits this team and that bench unit like a glove.

Think he just needs to adjust to the physicality of the NBA. It’s easy to move 6’10 white centers who barely weight 230. A lot more different when you’re seeing Sabonis and Jokic at the rim who are probably closer to 270 pounds lol.

The good thing is he’s able to clearly blow by them, he just doesn’t have enough vertical pop to finish yet consistently on straight line drives. It’ll come as he adjusts imo.