Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league

[ATLTimekeeper]

36% of your fans think Scottie is in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis...

People love latching on to media talking points. Seriously who gives a **** about their contracts we’re looking for production and wins people talk about contracts like the money is coming out of their pockets.

All it takes is one bad contract given out to a player like Kendrick Perkins on your roster to prevent you from resigning an up and coming piece like James Harden. That is why people talk about contracts.

The price to pay to remove one bad contract, like Perkins, is well worth the value of retaining Harden. Don't forget what stupid looks like.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

If I was them right now, I'd be throwing the kitchen sink at Denver. The Lebron situation probably has them spooked.

[Merit]

1) No one here is saying that Scottie is in league with MVP caliber players, the question is whether he has the potential to become a #1 option star.

2) You can be a #1 option without being a top 5 player...many people would argue that guys like Tatum, Mitchell, Haliburton, Butler, Brunson, Cunningham, Edwards, Booker etc. are solid #1 options, despite not being in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis.

The OP specifically used the word "superstar," which does change the tone of the conversation some. But in general, a guy like Barnes is a terribly poor choice to use as a focal piece for an offense. He has other uses. He has other potential. For example, he has the potential to not be a historically-bad scoring threat this season and going forward, now that we're opening up the floor with more shooting, and perhaps less self-creation responsibility. A little more passing support could go a very long way to making him a more useful piece on offense. Getting him to stop taking ATB 3s would be another marvelous improvement for his game. Specific use case is so important for most players. Guys who aren't superstar offensive players, you can't just throw them in the pot and hope for the best, you have to position them for best success.

Look at Pascal. He's a very good player, but he NEEDS shots in certain places and lots of passing support for him to become an efficient player and be more useful at mid-volume scoring. With Scottie, it sounds like we need him around 10-12 FGA/g with a healthy dose of passing support and a high proportion of transition action. And we seem positioned to do that this year, which is good.

It's very clear that he hasn't shown anything resembling what it takes to be a legitimate focal option on offense. He can't handle scoring volume and he isn't an ATG playmaker, doesn't have elite athleticism, doesn't have the jumper, doesn't have the elite on-ball game, doesn't have the consistent ability to get to the rim, etc, etc. He's just missing the pieces it takes to get there. It's all "doesn't have" with him, within the specific parameters of "can you land the focal responsibility for an offense on his shoulders." And that's about as expected based on what literally everyone was saying ahead of the draft. He can't shoot, he isn't a scorer, that's not where his strengths lie. Us shoehorning him into the role just to see while we tank is something else, and it's an experiment which now needs to end.

The future is hard to predict, remember that Shai in 2022, at 23 years old, had not even made an all-star team and averaged 24ppg on 45%fg and 30%3fg on a terrible team.

At 22, he'd averaged 24/5/6 on 109 TS+ (62.3% TS) in his abbreviated season. A year later, he had another injury-interrupted season and backslid a bunch on his short game and struggled from 3. But he already showing elite ability to get to the rim and draw fouls, was showcasing his passing, etc. By the time he finished the 21-22 season (his age-23 season), it was pretty clear that he was going to be an extremely good player. He certainly broke out a year later, but he'd been flashing the pieces for a couple seasons already.

That's quite a different scenario from Barnes. It'd be really difficult to go hunting and find someone missing so many of the different tools which go into elite offensive play who suddenly became a worthwhile #1. Like, even if you look at Demar's incremental improvement over aeons and aeons of basketball, he never turned into a guy who was a really quality choice as a focal player. He, like Siakam, ultimately led us in volume, but it was Lowry who was the real engine of our offense.

Agree with your perspective for the most part because it paints the “now”. Until Scottie proves otherwise, it stands. However - it’s the *future* we’re projecting. I don’t know enough about player development and aging curves to say that Scottie definitively cannot be a focal point offensive player. I’m not sure he’s going to get anywhere close to that without a semblance of a 3, but even without that - his on court impact could be huge. Not sure if superstar huge, but with a 3? Definitely superstar huge.

Also, the Shai comparison is tough. He’s the best driver in the NBA and has the ideal supporting cast around him including two players who could potentially be #1 options on other teams, and shooting at every position. Let’s give Scottie a chance.

[tsherkin]

Agree with your perspective for the most part because it paints the “now”. Until Scottie proves otherwise, it stands. However - it’s the *future* we’re projecting. I don’t know enough about player development and aging curves to say that Scottie definitively cannot be a focal point offensive player.

I can't think of a single example of a player who was projected to not be a scorer, couldn't shoot, didn't have elite athleticism and couldn't even manage league-average efficiency over his first four seasons who then turned around and became a valid first-option focal point on offense. Whilst it is impossible to disprove that he could ever do it conclusively, the odds are startling low that it could happen and very much against the usual developmental tracks.

I’m not sure he’s going to get anywhere close to that without a semblance of a 3, but even without that - his on court impact could be huge. Not sure if superstar huge, but with a 3? Definitely superstar huge.

Nah, even a 3 wouldn't take him to that level on offense, though it would certainly do wonders for his overall utility and versatility with different lineups.

Also, the Shai comparison is tough. He’s the best driver in the NBA and has the ideal supporting cast around him including two players who could potentially be #1 options on other teams, and shooting at every position. Let’s give Scottie a chance.

Yes, well, I was responding to someone who brought up Shai specifically.

Anyway, no. Let's not give Scottie a chance. Historically, it's a terrible idea to keep forcing shots his way. And hopefully, the BI signing invalidates that as an option, as does bringing Quick back into the fold. It's just violently insensible to keep trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

[AbC?]

The cope continues.

[wegotthabeet]

All-NBA season incoming. You heard it here first.

[Merit]

Agree with your perspective for the most part because it paints the “now”. Until Scottie proves otherwise, it stands. However - it’s the *future* we’re projecting. I don’t know enough about player development and aging curves to say that Scottie definitively cannot be a focal point offensive player.

I can't think of a single example of a player who was projected to not be a scorer, couldn't shoot, didn't have elite athleticism and couldn't even manage league-average efficiency over his first four seasons who then turned around and became a valid first-option focal point on offense. Whilst it is impossible to disprove that he could ever do it conclusively, the odds are startling low that it could happen and very much against the usual developmental tracks.

I’m not sure he’s going to get anywhere close to that without a semblance of a 3, but even without that - his on court impact could be huge. Not sure if superstar huge, but with a 3? Definitely superstar huge.

Nah, even a 3 wouldn't take him to that level on offense, though it would certainly do wonders for his overall utility and versatility with different lineups.

Also, the Shai comparison is tough. He’s the best driver in the NBA and has the ideal supporting cast around him including two players who could potentially be #1 options on other teams, and shooting at every position. Let’s give Scottie a chance.

Yes, well, I was responding to someone who brought up Shai specifically.

Anyway, no. Let's not give Scottie a chance. Historically, it's a terrible idea to keep forcing shots his way. And hopefully, the BI signing invalidates that as an option, as does bringing Quick back into the fold. It's just violently insensible to keep trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

The way I see it, as I have said before, is we were pushing Scottie to see the limits to his skill last season. Scottie is athletic enough to make an impact. He’s not Aaron Gordon or Zach Lavine but he’s not plodding either. He’s more than capable of elevating a team defensively, and serve as a connective passer and all around *special sauce* for a team. His scoring isn’t where he derives his primary value, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have value.

[tsherkin]

The way I see it, as I have said before, is we were pushing Scottie to see the limits to his skill last season.

Yes, I agree. We had an experiment in a lost season. Really, two lost seasons. Chicken/egg how that went down in 2024, because he was shooting too much to begin with, but still. It does feel like we took an opportunity to see what we could get out of him.

Scottie is athletic enough to make an impact. He’s not Aaron Gordon or Zach Lavine but he’s not plodding either.

Yes, he isn't UNathletic, but that's not what I've been saying. I've been saying rather explicitly he lacks elite athleticism, which can help overcome certain skill deficiencies at times, and raises a player's overall upper bound.

He’s more than capable of elevating a team defensively, and serve as a connective passer and all around *special sauce* for a team. His scoring isn’t where he derives his primary value, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have value.

Sure, but this isn't salient. I haven't said he "doesn't have value." I have been discussing Scottie in the context of the OP, in terms of the idea of him as a primary focal point on offense. There, he's got nothing. He's a terrible option in that regard. But there's a wide space between "focal offensive option" and "can't do anything for the team," naturally.

[Merit]

The way I see it, as I have said before, is we were pushing Scottie to see the limits to his skill last season.

Yes, I agree. We had an experiment in a lost season. Really, two lost seasons. Chicken/egg how that went down in 2024, because he was shooting too much to begin with, but still. It does feel like we took an opportunity to see what we could get out of him.

Scottie is athletic enough to make an impact. He’s not Aaron Gordon or Zach Lavine but he’s not plodding either.

Yes, he isn't UNathletic, but that's not what I've been saying. I've been saying rather explicitly he lacks elite athleticism, which can help overcome certain skill deficiencies at times, and raises a player's overall upper bound.

He’s more than capable of elevating a team defensively, and serve as a connective passer and all around *special sauce* for a team. His scoring isn’t where he derives his primary value, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have value.

Sure, but this isn't salient. I haven't said he "doesn't have value." I have been discussing Scottie in the context of the OP, in terms of the idea of him as a primary focal point on offense. There, he's got nothing. He's a terrible option in that regard. But there's a wide space between "focal offensive option" and "can't do anything for the team," naturally.

For sure. I guess I’m saying he isn’t the best fit as the focal point on offense right now. I think that what’s going to make us better than others is a spursian offense centered on ball movement. In that context, while we do have a primary offensive player in BI (or back in the day, TD) we also have 5 players who can score in various ways, minimizing Scottie’s need to be the #1. Put it this way, he’s already elevated bench players as a pseudo-#1. Is it what he’s best suited for? No. Not at the moment. Could he get better at it? Absolutely. Would a 3 make a significant difference in that regard? Absolutely. Did he show some mid range improvement over the year? Yes. Did he figure out his spots a bit better? Also hopefully yes.

TLDR: to answer the OP’s question, IMO yes - but he would need the right mix of players around him, and even if he were to be labelled as the #1 option, he’s naturally more of a pass first player anyway, and would benefit from being paired with a better iso player and shooting. Looks like we have some of that on our team already. I’d say he’s more of a #2 option but the heart of the team.

[tsherkin]

For sure. I guess I’m saying he isn’t the best fit as the focal point on offense right now.

He's a terrible fit for that role, yes.

TLDR: to answer the OP’s question, IMO yes

Best player on a championship team? That's the poll question.

Keep in mind that in the 3pt era, there have been VERY few titles won by a team without an MVP-level talent.

The 80s were largely defined by Bird and Magic, and the 83 Sixers had not only the MVP for that season, but Dr J, who had also won an NBA MVP (and 3 ABA MVPs). The Pistons didn't have an MVP-level talent. Then Jordan and Olajuwon won the next 8 titles, and both were multiple-time MVPs.

Shaq/Kobe Lakers. Spurs.

The 04 Pistons didn't have an MVP-level player on them.

The 06 Heat had Wade and post-prime Shaq. Wade never actually won an MVP, but that had more to do with health than ability.

08 Celtics had former MVP Garnett on team in his DPOY year, with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. You didn't have a dominant individual scorer, but something more akin to what you saw with the later Spurs titles in terms of distribution across a trio with a DPOY focus.

Kobe Bryant in the two years after his MVP season.

Dirk, who had won an MVP.

Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat. More Spurs.

Steph. Lebron. Steph w KD. Steph w KD. Kawhi in Toronto, another one like Wade who doesn't have an MVP more from health issues than anything else. He was 2nd in the MVP vote in 2016, and a two-time DPOY.

Lebron again. Giannis. Steph again. Joker.

Tatum isn't really an MVP-level player, and certainly didn't play like it in the Finals either, so you can count that one.

And now SGA.

So really, you're talking about a maximum of 4 or 5 titles over nearly the past half century who haven't had an authentic, MVP-level player on them.

So unless you STAAAAAAACK the team, there's a near-zero chance that Scottie ends up as the best player on a championship team.

[Tha Cynic]

Feels like at this stage we’re discussing ad nauseam something that doesn’t exist. It’s clear Brandon Ingram is expected to be #1 scoring option unless someone else emerges.

Scottie Barnes will be deployed based on what he shows this season. We’re trying to win. Last season is basically a write off and I wouldn’t put too much in terms of actual tactics or strategy in how we used players last season.

Let’s all hope our players all come back looking like #1 options. Saying the same thing over and over again without any games in 2025/2026 showing growth or regression just shows some of us are bored and have nothing else to talk about.

I’m a bit surprised we aren’t looking into more detail on Gradey Dick and Walter and what they can potentially do this season based on similar comparisons.

[Prestige]

I would love to see him play to his strengths, which is mainly, physical strength. He's a strong guy who can carve out a niche backing down smaller players and getting by bigger ones. Although now that I say that I realize nobody posts up anymore.

I don't want to see him dribbling 2 feet outside the 3 point line calling for a pick and roll. Mix it up more, get inside, cut, work the paint area, get free throws by muscling under the hoop.

[tsherkin]

I would love to see him play to his strengths, which is mainly, physical strength. He's a strong guy who can carve out a niche backing down smaller players and getting by bigger ones. Although now that I say that I realize nobody posts up anymore.

We can get him posting a bit. Diving in from the FT line around penetration, or in from the dunker spot. I'd love to see him screening well and then rolling. He just needs to be off-ball more, and set up for shots around the basket instead of further away. Eliminate shooting ATB 3s and use him as a play finisher instead of as an initiator outside of transition.

He just isn't that guy. And everyone knew it before the draft. So we'll see what Darko does now that we are going to actively try to win.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Scottie needs to go back to being used like he was in his rookie year lowkey. Non scoring primarily but can crash the offensive glass and attack mismatches. Push the ball on misses as the break starter or look to immediately attack before defenses are set.

No more pullup 3's or PnR's from the 3pt line where everyone goes under and no advantage is created. No more fake pg ball handling that leads to hot potato offense because the defense doesn't get sucked in and no one is actually open.

[deck]

Scottie needs to go back to being used like he was in his rookie year lowkey. Non scoring primarily but can crash the offensive glass and attack mismatches. Push the ball on misses as the break starter or look to immediately attack before defenses are set.

No more pullup 3's or PnR's from the 3pt line where everyone goes under and no advantage is created. No more fake pg ball handling that leads to hot potato offense because the defense doesn't get sucked in and no one is actually open.

I agree with this. The Barnes as a point guard thing needs to end. He is a great passer, but he is not a threat to drive, not a threat to shoot the three, and it takes him away from some of his strengths like offensive rebounding.

[ConSarnit]

Scottie needs to go back to being used like he was in his rookie year lowkey. Non scoring primarily but can crash the offensive glass and attack mismatches. Push the ball on misses as the break starter or look to immediately attack before defenses are set.

No more pullup 3's or PnR's from the 3pt line where everyone goes under and no advantage is created. No more fake pg ball handling that leads to hot potato offense because the defense doesn't get sucked in and no one is actually open.

I agree with this. The Barnes as a point guard thing needs to end. He is a great passer, but he is not a threat to drive, not a threat to shoot the three, and it takes him away from some of his strengths like offensive rebounding.

I have a lot of doubts about this plan (even if it’s what we should be doing). What you’re talking about is turning Barnes into a “big” vs a “guard” (how he has been playing up until this point). Has there ever been a player who has successfully transitioned their play style in this way? I can’t think of any. If Barnes is not playmaking he loses much of his value. No one is going to guard him off-ball. He hasn’t shown big man skills like screening, rolling or posting up. Off-ball Barnes is a negative player on offense given what we’ve seen so far. Unfortunately on-ball Barnes has also mostly been a negative player too. If we’re going to minimize his role on offense we need him to be an all-defense level player or else he’s just a bad contract. I worry about Barnes capability to take on a new role given how he’s played up until this point. Maybe he can do it but I have serious doubts.

[ConSarnit]

36% of your fans think Scottie is in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis...

36% of our fans a year ago think Scottie COULD become a #1 option player.

That is SIGNIFICANTLY different than saying he is in a league with those guys. and FWIW, I voted "no", but coming onto our board and trying to bait isn't the play probably

The irony of your post is that outside of Luka, there were definitely major question marks if Jokic/SGA/Giannis could have been #1 option superstars as well when they were the same age/experience as Barnes.

Both Jokic and Giannis made all-NBA and got MVP votes after their respective 4th seasons. They were significantly further along than Barnes is at the same points in their career.

I don’t know about you but I’m going to say a guy who made 1st team all-NBA, finished 4th in MVP voting and averaged 20/11/7 in his 4th year was much further ahead of the guy who made “replacement all-star” as his crowning achievement prior to year 5.

[HangTime]

Scottie needs to go back to being used like he was in his rookie year lowkey. Non scoring primarily but can crash the offensive glass and attack mismatches. Push the ball on misses as the break starter or look to immediately attack before defenses are set.

No more pullup 3's or PnR's from the 3pt line where everyone goes under and no advantage is created. No more fake pg ball handling that leads to hot potato offense because the defense doesn't get sucked in and no one is actually open.

I want him taking those (2-3 per game), last year with the hand injury, it wasn't about making them, it was about getting comfortable in taking them.

I think those who want to go back to rookie year style are way to short sighted. His rookie year is where he should've got the PG reps.

He's a point guard at heart, and last year, Darko made things extremely difficult (on purpose) for him, the injuries didn't help.
Now, with the way the roster is constructed, it makes even more sense (to me anyway).

My opening day starting lineup would be.
Scottie / IQ / Ingram / CMB / Jakob

People are going to complain about the lack 3 point shooting, I can see this lineup working around that, and if the 3s are falling, that's a bonus.

[YogurtProducer]

36% of your fans think Scottie is in league with Jokic, SGA, Luka and Giannis...

36% of our fans a year ago think Scottie COULD become a #1 option player.

That is SIGNIFICANTLY different than saying he is in a league with those guys. and FWIW, I voted "no", but coming onto our board and trying to bait isn't the play probably

The irony of your post is that outside of Luka, there were definitely major question marks if Jokic/SGA/Giannis could have been #1 option superstars as well when they were the same age/experience as Barnes.

Both Jokic and Giannis made all-NBA and got MVP votes after their respective 4th seasons. They were significantly further along than Barnes is at the same points in their career.

I don’t know about you but I’m going to say a guy who made 1st team all-NBA, finished 4th in MVP voting and averaged 20/11/7 in his 4th year was much further ahead of the guy who made “replacement all-star” as his crowning achievement prior to year 5.

Okay but that doesn't change the fact that there were questions marks on Jokic/Giannis being able to be the best player on a good team after their 4th year.

Barnes isn't ever going to even touch their accomplishments, but a #1 option superstar is such a high bar that you could claim any player is not going to be one and be right 99% of the time.

[YogurtProducer]

Scottie needs to go back to being used like he was in his rookie year lowkey. Non scoring primarily but can crash the offensive glass and attack mismatches. Push the ball on misses as the break starter or look to immediately attack before defenses are set.

No more pullup 3's or PnR's from the 3pt line where everyone goes under and no advantage is created. No more fake pg ball handling that leads to hot potato offense because the defense doesn't get sucked in and no one is actually open.

I want him taking those (2-3 per game), last year with the hand injury, it wasn't about making them, it was about getting comfortable in taking them.

I think those who want to go back to rookie year style are way to short sighted. His rookie year is where he should've got the PG reps.

He's a point guard at heart, and last year, Darko made things extremely difficult (on purpose) for him, the injuries didn't help.
Now, with the way the roster is constructed, it makes even more sense (to me anyway).

My opening day starting lineup would be.
Scottie / IQ / Ingram / CMB / Jakob

People are going to complain about the lack 3 point shooting, I can see this lineup working around that, and if the 3s are falling, that's a bonus.

I feel differently. The sooner Barnes recognizes and accepts he is not a PG, the better.

He doesn't have PG skills. His dribble is to high, he doesn't operate well as a PnR ball handler, he isn't elite in terms of vision (IQ is just as good, IMO), he is 0 threat if guys go under screens, etc.

He is a connector. A guy who is smart and can make great passes. But he is not a Point Guard.