Official NBA General Discussion 2025-26 V1.0

[tsherkin]

they had hali right there and chose wrong with sabonis. and then chose keegan murray over siakam who would've been a difference maker for them.

i'd be depressed too.

It could have been worse, Morey turned down Haliburton for Simmons.

damn, totally missed that... a real morey L there. chose harden instead lol. hali and joel would've been a great duo together.

That's a bit rough.

[sidsid]

It's kind of remarkable that the series might very well have been decided by the Knicks' Game 1 choke.

That game will now live in infamy. It wasn't just one guy making one gaffe. It was a series of (comedic) events, by their top guys, that contributed to that epic collapse. Even if a team tried to intentionally replicate that, I'm not sure they could. Comeuppance for Knicks' media and fans, I would say.

Now they get to pay Bridges and OG a combined 80M next season, yikes.

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

To compare with OKC. Bridges was brought in to be their version of JDub. A mid-range shooting secondary ball handler. JDub has been as up and down in that role as Bridges was until this last series. Bridges was looking more like a less sturdy Cason Wallace out there. He just isn't that guy. Hart is a bench energy guy who is being used as an OG minutes eating starter, which has been killing them all year. Coaching is their second biggest problem.

The Thunder tried your way last year by keeping Giddey and trading for a ball handling Hayward at the deadline (their RJs). They both tanked their chances. By jettisoning them and bringing in another OG to add to their 1st OG in Dort, it's the main reason they got past the Nuggets. Along with IHart minutes, which have been steadily dwindling (which tends to happen with non-shooting bigs).

The bigger picture problem is that you can't win with KAT, who is a Bargnani level defender, but worse at man defense. Brunson also doesn't play any, but shows up more frequently on O. No amount of OGs is saving that when the other team just keeps running 2 man PNRs on them. A weak east isn't masking that fact anymore for those paying attention. The Knicks will have to hope that there are a few more dumb GMs out there willing to bail them out.

[bape_lovers]

could've had Luka and Hali

Just checked out the Kings subreddit and man I feel for the fans.

[Pointgod]

Is there a better defensive C than Robinson?

But a slightly less great defender who has more offense than Robinson, I agree would help.

If you go by defensive ratings, there are a few better C’s than Robinson. Last year the Wolves had the best defensive rating in the league with Towns at PF. A lot of it is the Gobert and Jalen McDaniels but the team dropped to 6th with Randle replacing Towns which shows that Towns isn’t the only problem.

The Knicks needed more from Bridges, Hart and their bench.

I'm more of an eye test guy but I'll just say you can only judge Robinson from these playoffs, where he was much better than in the season. He was working his way back very slowly from ankle surgery until the playoffs hit. Not saying he's the best C on D but he's up there. I wasn't watching them closely before the OG trade but I understand in early 23-24 he was playing DPOY level, starting ahead of Hartenstein, before another serious ankle injury.

Not saying he's the total package at C because he doesn't have much scoring ability. But his rim protection is elite in the right system.

I’m not a big believer in Mitchell Robinson. The fact that he can’t stay healthy and barely plays 20 minutes a game limits his impact. That means KAT is playing those other 28 minutes and I agree with people who say those minutes aren’t going to be great.

There’s always going to be something which Mitchell Robinson and the center position is the one that’s most malleable in the NBA. The Mavs made the finals with Daniel Gafford and a rookie Derek Lively while the Celtics made the finals with a 100 year old Al Horford at Center. The Knicks need to find some players that can step up in space and grab defensive rebounds for 38 minutes while KAT fills in the other 10. I think it would be a mistake trading KAT because you basically get diminishing returns

[Pointgod]

Brunson is what FVV was like here post-Kyle Lowry.

Can’t win in the playoffs with a player like that.

Brother what are you talking about? Brunson was 29 and 7 in the playoffs and averaged 30 and 6 against the Pacers. It was obvious that he had carried too much of an offensive load, Thibs ran this man into the ground.

It’s an insult to compare him to Fred Van Vleet.

his style of play isn't conducive to winning in the playoffs.

can;t hold onto the ball for 17 seconds every shot clock. got to learn to move the ball better.

he could have averaged 35 and they still would have lost. he should not be their 1A if they want to win.

I would agree with you if he wasn’t putting up numbers efficiently but he is. This has more to do with Thibs’ lack of offensive game plan and nobody other than Towns being able to create offence. A heliocentric offence was in the finals last season, but they had a much more balanced defence than the Knicks.

[ATLTimekeeper]

That game will now live in infamy. It wasn't just one guy making one gaffe. It was a series of (comedic) events, by their top guys, that contributed to that epic collapse. Even if a team tried to intentionally replicate that, I'm not sure they could. Comeuppance for Knicks' media and fans, I would say.

Now they get to pay Bridges and OG a combined 80M next season, yikes.

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

To compare with OKC. Bridges was brought in to be their version of JDub. A mid-range shooting secondary ball handler. JDub has been as up and down in that role as Bridges was until this last series. Bridges was looking more like a less sturdy Cason Wallace out there. He just isn't that guy. Hart is a bench energy guy who is being used as an OG minutes eating starter, which has been killing them all year. Coaching is their second biggest problem.

The Thunder tried your way last year by keeping Giddey and trading for a ball handling Hayward at the deadline (their RJs). They both tanked their chances. By jettisoning them and bringing in another OG to add to their 1st OG in Dort, it's the main reason they got past the Nuggets. Along with IHart minutes, which have been steadily dwindling (which tends to happen with non-shooting bigs).

The bigger picture problem is that you can't win with KAT, who is a Bargnani level defender, but worse at man defense. Brunson also doesn't play any, but shows up more frequently on O. No amount of OGs is saving that when the other team just keeps running 2 man PNRs on them. A weak east isn't masking that fact anymore for those paying attention. The Knicks will have to hope that there are a few more dumb GMs out there willing to bail them out.

Giddey isn't RJ. Hayward was toast. OKC got wrecked by bigs and had to overspend to get Hartenstein. They already had their scoring load figured out with Shai and JDub. You need someone that can actually draw defenders as you go to the paint. You literally need players that can bring the ball up the court so that Andrew Nembhard doesn't make a name for himself picking you up full court, because the next best ballhandler is Mikhail Bridges. OKC has like 4-5 guards now that can bring the ball up the court.

The big picture is that OG's of the world don't provide enough value in the playoffs. You need to cut that salary in half. You need to pay for skill.

[djsunyc]

someone on nba radio said this is the first finals where both teams are not paying luxury tax. okc really caught lightning in a bottle and pacers built their team well - 10 guys that can play, no stiffs.

[sidsid]

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

To compare with OKC. Bridges was brought in to be their version of JDub. A mid-range shooting secondary ball handler. JDub has been as up and down in that role as Bridges was until this last series. Bridges was looking more like a less sturdy Cason Wallace out there. He just isn't that guy. Hart is a bench energy guy who is being used as an OG minutes eating starter, which has been killing them all year. Coaching is their second biggest problem.

The Thunder tried your way last year by keeping Giddey and trading for a ball handling Hayward at the deadline (their RJs). They both tanked their chances. By jettisoning them and bringing in another OG to add to their 1st OG in Dort, it's the main reason they got past the Nuggets. Along with IHart minutes, which have been steadily dwindling (which tends to happen with non-shooting bigs).

The bigger picture problem is that you can't win with KAT, who is a Bargnani level defender, but worse at man defense. Brunson also doesn't play any, but shows up more frequently on O. No amount of OGs is saving that when the other team just keeps running 2 man PNRs on them. A weak east isn't masking that fact anymore for those paying attention. The Knicks will have to hope that there are a few more dumb GMs out there willing to bail them out.

Giddey isn't RJ. Hayward was toast. OKC got wrecked by bigs and had to overspend to get Hartenstein. They already had their scoring load figured out with Shai and JDub. You need someone that can actually draw defenders as you go to the paint. You literally need players that can bring the ball up the court so that Andrew Nembhard doesn't make a name for himself picking you up full court, because the next best ballhandler is Mikhail Bridges. OKC has like 4-5 guards now that can bring the ball up the court.

The big picture is that OG's of the world don't provide enough value in the playoffs. You need to cut that salary in half. You need to pay for skill.

It's clearly the opposite. The Pacers getting through the injured JV conference and being massive underdogs against an actual contending team that has a Mikal Bridges like shaky second ball handler in JDub is the proof.

The league is littered with one-way scoring bad contract players that are in a fight for their lives in the playoffs for minutes. Poole, MPJ, Herro, etc. No team is looking to move on from Gordon, OG, McDaniels, etc. Because they can't replace their impact. They can go dumpster diving for guard depth if they need it. This isn't theoretical, it's year in year out what you see on the market/trades.

The Warriors have like half their roster filled with these guys. But after trading Wiggins what they could have used...is Wiggins.

[UnderdogRaptors]

Guys we'll surpass knix next yr

[UnderdogRaptors]

It's kind of remarkable that the series might very well have been decided by the Knicks' Game 1 choke.

Should have been a sweep

[WaltFrazier]

It's kind of remarkable that the series might very well have been decided by the Knicks' Game 1 choke.

That game will now live in infamy. It wasn't just one guy making one gaffe. It was a series of (comedic) events, by their top guys, that contributed to that epic collapse. Even if a team tried to intentionally replicate that, I'm not sure they could. Comeuppance for Knicks' media and fans, I would say.

Now they get to pay Bridges and OG a combined 80M next season, yikes.

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

So having 2 great defensive guards like White and Jrue was overkill a year ago? OKC was wrong to get Caruso when they already had Dort?

[mdenny]

That game will now live in infamy. It wasn't just one guy making one gaffe. It was a series of (comedic) events, by their top guys, that contributed to that epic collapse. Even if a team tried to intentionally replicate that, I'm not sure they could. Comeuppance for Knicks' media and fans, I would say.

Now they get to pay Bridges and OG a combined 80M next season, yikes.

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

So having 2 great defensive guards like White and Jrue was overkill a year ago? OKC was wrong to get Caruso when they already had Dort?

Caruso, white and Jrue all have good handles though.

There's simply not enough ball handling for hart, og and Bridges to play in the same starting lineup.

Alot of the Brunson criticism kinda bugs me. He dribbles too much? That's how the starting lineup was designed. It's not his fault that there's a lack of ball handling on his team. And then of course....he gets the blame because he has the ball duties.

If they spread the ball handling duties out more then it would embarrass his teammates who would struggle against playoff ball pressure.

They really missed having IQ and RJ and Donte. Even Randall has an above average handle for his position/size. Every player they lost in building the team had good to great ballhandling relative to their role. They were left with a lack of handles....and then Brunson gets blamed for over-dribbling smh.

[Psubs]

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

So having 2 great defensive guards like White and Jrue was overkill a year ago? OKC was wrong to get Caruso when they already had Dort?

Caruso, white and Jrue all have good handles though.

There's simply not enough ball handling for hart, og and Bridges to play in the same starting lineup.

Alot of the Brunson criticism kinda bugs me. He dribbles too much? That's how the starting lineup was designed. It's not his fault that there's a lack of ball handling on his team. And then of course....he gets the blame because he has the ball duties.

If they spread the ball handling duties out more then it would embarrass his teammates who would struggle against playoff ball pressure.

They really missed having IQ and RJ and Donte. Even Randall has an above average handle for his position/size. Every player they lost in building the team had good to great ballhandling relative to their role. They were left with a lack of handles....and then Brunson gets blamed for over-dribbling smh.

There's a fine line. If the Knicks had not traded Grimes and had Nembhard instead of Deuce, the Knicks are going to the finals.

[mdenny]

So having 2 great defensive guards like White and Jrue was overkill a year ago? OKC was wrong to get Caruso when they already had Dort?

Caruso, white and Jrue all have good handles though.

There's simply not enough ball handling for hart, og and Bridges to play in the same starting lineup.

Alot of the Brunson criticism kinda bugs me. He dribbles too much? That's how the starting lineup was designed. It's not his fault that there's a lack of ball handling on his team. And then of course....he gets the blame because he has the ball duties.

If they spread the ball handling duties out more then it would embarrass his teammates who would struggle against playoff ball pressure.

They really missed having IQ and RJ and Donte. Even Randall has an above average handle for his position/size. Every player they lost in building the team had good to great ballhandling relative to their role. They were left with a lack of handles....and then Brunson gets blamed for over-dribbling smh.

There's a fine line. If the Knicks had not traded Grimes and had Nembhard instead of Deuce, the Knicks are going to the finals.

Right. It's relatively easy for the Knicks to address this problem without having to insert Cameron Payne and delon Wright into intense playoff games.

They just need some more guys in the rotation who can dribble. And those guys are pretty easy to get.

[sidsid]

I was mostly focused on the KAT/Brunson matchups, noticing that they moved OG off of Siakam in the latter games. Didn't notice thar Nembhard had basically been erased from the series (the OG effect), and allowing OG to abuse him with size on O. That has costs of opening up Siakam, but it killed the Pacers regular flow. A great tradeoff all things considered, and could have won them game 4 if OG had a matching great night from 3.

Until the Pacers made the shift to Nembhard on Brunson and the matchup wasn't as easy to get to in game 6.

All the little and constant adjustments throughout a series that can tilt it.

https://bsky.app/profile/yourmandevine.bsky.social/post/3lqkw6xbtss23

[hyper316]

Kings messed up bad. Traded away Haliburton and left with Fox didn't work out

[Los_29]

That game will now live in infamy. It wasn't just one guy making one gaffe. It was a series of (comedic) events, by their top guys, that contributed to that epic collapse. Even if a team tried to intentionally replicate that, I'm not sure they could. Comeuppance for Knicks' media and fans, I would say.

Now they get to pay Bridges and OG a combined 80M next season, yikes.

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

So having 2 great defensive guards like White and Jrue was overkill a year ago? OKC was wrong to get Caruso when they already had Dort?

I think he was also referring to the fact they can all handle the ball. Bridges and especially OG aren’t reliable ball handlers. Dort isn’t a great ball handler but he’s the only guy and he’s not making 45 million a year.

Kings messed up bad. Traded away Haliburton and left with Fox didn't work out

Funnily enough that won’t even be the best trade in the finals. If I was a Clippers fan I’d be furious. They had SGA. Dealt him and a boatload of picks for Paul George.

[mdenny]

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

So having 2 great defensive guards like White and Jrue was overkill a year ago? OKC was wrong to get Caruso when they already had Dort?

I think he was also referring to the fact they can all handle the ball. Bridges and especially OG aren’t reliable ball handlers. Dort isn’t a great ball handler but he’s the only guy and he’s not making 45 million a year.

Kings messed up bad. Traded away Haliburton and left with Fox didn't work out

Funnily enough that won’t even be the best trade in the finals. If I was a Clippers fan I’d be furious. They had SGA. Dealt him and a boatload of picks for Paul George.

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that casual basketball criticism strongly trends towards all players who can dribble the basketball.

The guys who get none of the social media hate and ridiculing memes just happen to be the players who can't dribble the ball.

How do you make hate meme campaigns about players who don't actually do anything with the ball?

Thus is exactly why this board has a long history of hating on every player who dribbles the ball and glorifying the players who don't.

The most hated players on this board (historically): fred vanvleet, Kyle lowry, Jose Calderon

The most beloved players on this board: OG, Jonas V, serge ibaka.

Notice any trend?
.

[WaltFrazier]

Bridges, OG and Hart on the same team is overkill. It's like if someone built a team just listening to guys that podcasters really liked. The Celtics had this mistake with White and Smart. You don't need two guys making money doing the same stuff.

So having 2 great defensive guards like White and Jrue was overkill a year ago? OKC was wrong to get Caruso when they already had Dort?

I think he was also referring to the fact they can all handle the ball. Bridges and especially OG aren’t reliable ball handlers. Dort isn’t a great ball handler but he’s the only guy and he’s not making 45 million a year.

Yeah when he bring salary into it that's a different discussion. Without a trade, I think benching making Hart 6th man and playing Bridges at 2 might work. Bridges isn't that bad a secondary ballhandler. Otherwise they need a big combo guard who can play D and let Brunson go off ball more. They missed DDV in that way, especially since he set the franchise record for made threes last season.

We all saw how Fred was best playing in a two guard lineup with Kyle. Brunson has a much better scoring bag but could still benefit from a backcourt mate who can run the offense better. And then you get into the idea of, could a different coach bring a more creative ball sharing offense, with fewer isos, and change the offensive chemistry that way.

[tsherkin]

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that casual basketball criticism strongly trends towards all players who can dribble the basketball.

The guys who get none of the social media hate and ridiculing memes just happen to be the players who can't dribble the ball.

How do you make hate meme campaigns about players who don't actually do anything with the ball?

Thus is exactly why this board has a long history of hating on every player who dribbles the ball and glorifying the players who don't.

The most hated players on this board (historically): fred vanvleet, Kyle lowry, Jose Calderon

The most beloved players on this board: OG, Jonas V, serge ibaka.

Notice any trend?
.

VanVleet and Lowry had similar problems in that they were pretty rough at shooting inside the arc, and so they made their living on the basis of sub-40% volume shooting from 3. Kyle at least was good at driving and drawing fouls, and recognized for his defensive hustle and effort in general. Fred was not. Calderon was a 6th man we forced into a starter's role, and wretched defender, who was also a bit too methodical at times.

OG hustled on D and was a strong complementary player. Aside from his frailty, there wasn't a lot to get uppity about. Jonas was a hustle big. Serge was a complementary player.

I don't think it has anything to do with dribbling specifically, and more about who's visible, leading the show, and what they look like on the court.

But all of them took flak when they weren't playing well, so this isn't really even a super strong correlation. I think you're over-focusing on dribbling at the expense of time of possession and visible focus on the screen. And then again, there's still "roleplayer versus focal player" and "guys who are doing well in their role and guys who are struggling," etc.