Raptors NBA Draft Thread: Jeremy Lamb (HOU)

[Fenris-77]

Considering Lamb attempted 4 FTAs,

3.6 isn't 4, and it's not good relative to his FGA. There's not any arguing about this really. The kid is obviously afraid of contact, and unless that changes he's got red flags as a scorer.

it's not that bad when you factor in the two ball hogs he played with for almost 25+ minutes. And I've said this before, Lamb averaged 3 apg in the 9 games when Ryan Boatright was suspended.

Perhaps, although it does directly speak to his inability to impose his will on a team where he's obviously the best player.

Also, allow me to quote from his DX write up, since it says everything I want to about this anyway...

He ranks 18th of the 21 shooting guard prospects in our top-100 rankings in assists generated on a per-possession basis. Link.

[Waylon Mercy]

Lambs bread and butter will be coming off screens not going to the line. Hes in the mold
of Allen, Miller, Hamilton etc that way.

[fredericklove]

He's a shooter first slasher second also hard to pass the ball when the PGs you're playing
with are Kemba Walker and Shabazz Napier.

I'll cut him some slack for the hot mess that was UConn's offense, but that line of reasoning only gets you so far. He still suffers from tunnel vision beyond that and his decision making looks decidedly suspect as a result. It also doesn't explain his wild phobia of contact, which won't play well at all at the NBA level.

I don't think he has a tunnel vision, he's not the type that has eyes in his back, but he's the "system" guy when it comes to passing, meaning the type that needs to get used to a systems play/cuts/p&r in order to get used to knowing who comes off screen and who's playing where, from that he will have a sense of knowing who's available to pass to, such as drive and kick, or break down his defenders str8 into the middle lane to spot the big men open or feed to other wing guy/PG cutting in.

[Undefeated]

3.6 isn't 4, and it's not good relative to his FGA. There's not any arguing about this really. The kid is obviously afraid of contact, and unless that changes he's got red flags as a scorer.

3.6 is close to 4, so it doesn't matter. You're bringing up something that's miniscule. And most of his FGAs were off of catch-and-shoot actions hence why it's harder for Lamb to get to the line unless it was a catch for a tight curl one dribble rim attack. You keep saying he's afraid of contact, but I ask you, if Lamb was so afraid of contact, explain to me why he has a variety of floaters and teardrops with the ability to release the ball with either hand inside? You don't have that kind of feel for scoring close to the basket if he has a phobia for contact.

although it does directly speak to his inability to impose his will on a team where he's obviously the best player.

Yeah Lamb was the best player, but it was obvious that Lamb had to play the 3 most nights because Calhoun loved the line-up that featured Ryan Boatright and Shabazz Napier in the backcourt. You can't expect Lamb to create when he barely has the ball in his hands to create for himself or others, right?

[Fenris-77]

Lambs bread and butter will be coming off screens not going to the line. Hes in the mold
of Allen, Miller, Hamilton etc that way.

Those dudes can also all pass, and also get to the line more reliably than it looks like Lamb will. Lamb's skills obviously play in the NBA, but without more FTA, or a lot more reliability from deep, he projects as a complimentary scorer at absolute best. I love for him to convince me otherwise, but his demeanor makes me think he won't.

[5DOM]

I think his lack of ability to get to the line is related to his demeanor,

I don't care if he doesn't get to the line because the moon is in Venus, it's a serious issue for a propesct a lottery as stacked as this one. Mostly because it drastically lowers his ceiling as an NBA scorer.

He averaged 17.7PPG shooting 59 TS% this season. If he got to the line at an elite level, his ceiling would have indeed been extremely high, but I think he still has the potential to be a very good second option even without being able to get to the line at a great rate. I think that's probably the most we can expect from this year's prospects. I can see Beal becoming more than that, but no one else.

[fredericklove]

3.6 isn't 4, and it's not good relative to his FGA. There's not any arguing about this really. The kid is obviously afraid of contact, and unless that changes he's got red flags as a scorer.

Red flag. Not red flags. Its only one red flag, otherwise, he's a flat out scorer that can score in so many different ways. I wouldn't even think people should worry about him as a scorer.

He ranks 18th of the 21 shooting guard prospects in our top-100 rankings in assists generated on a per-possession basis. Link.

This stat claims is totally unfair to Lamb, he was always forced to play as SF w/ two other point guards handling most of the passing duty. And he's mostly used as scoring option, not one that is being put into the ball-dominant role to get others involved.

[Waylon Mercy]

Lambs bread and butter will be coming off screens not going to the line. Hes in the mold
of Allen, Miller, Hamilton etc that way.

Those dudes can also all pass, and also get to the line more reliably than it looks like Lamb will. Lamb's skills obviously play in the NBA, but without more FTA, or a lot more reliability from deep, he projects as a complimentary scorer at absolute best. I love for him to convince me otherwise, but his demeanor makes me think he won't.

He is a complimentary scorer thats what we all expect him to be.... How many go to scorers
are there gonna be at 8?

Why are we nitpicking over Lamb likes hes the first pick in the draft? Every player after Davis
has their share fair of red flags.

Lambs pros far out weigh his cons

[Garmfay]

Lambs bread and butter will be coming off screens not going to the line. Hes in the mold
of Allen, Miller, Hamilton etc that way.

Those dudes can also all pass, and also get to the line more reliably than it looks like Lamb will. Lamb's skills obviously play in the NBA, but without more FTA, or a lot more reliability from deep, he projects as a complimentary scorer at absolute best. I love for him to convince me otherwise, but his demeanor makes me think he won't.

He is a complimentary scorer thats what we all expect him to be.... How many go to scorers
are there gonna be at 8?

Why are we nitpicking over Lamb likes hes the first pick in the draft? Every player after Davis
has their share fair of red flags.

Lambs pros far out weigh his cons

Not sure if srs. Some people here are like praying for Lamb to drop to 8 when he is most def going to be available and saying we will pick him 100%.

[fredericklove]

Lambs bread and butter will be coming off screens not going to the line. Hes in the mold
of Allen, Miller, Hamilton etc that way.

Those dudes can also all pass, and also get to the line more reliably than it looks like Lamb will. Lamb's skills obviously play in the NBA, but without more FTA, or a lot more reliability from deep, he projects as a complimentary scorer at absolute best. I love for him to convince me otherwise, but his demeanor makes me think he won't.

Its likely everyone in this draft in the top ten are complimentary scorer level. At 8th, you're really demanding a whole lot and expecting elite superstar scoring level?

Otherwise, there are very immense talented scorers from the past 10-15 yrs that avg 4-5 FTA a game and they happened to be used as primary offensive weapons due to their ability to score off in many ways even without getting to the line, teams can design so many array of set plays for them to get their shots off. So I wouldn't worry that much about his FTM/FTA ratio hindering his scoring ability.

[Fenris-77]

I'm nitpicking because people seem to be willing forgive Lamb all manner of failings as a prospect, while being mostly unwilling to do anything close to the same with other prospects they don't have any e-cred invested in.

If Lamb doesn't find some killer instinct in a box of crackerjacks or something it doesn't just mean he's a 3rd banana jump shooter, it also means he'll never realize his defensive potential. That r=fear of contact taints his whole game. Once you take the D out of the mix he's not really a lottery pick.

I also don't really care that he was playing at SF. I've seen him make enough bone-headed decisions that it's not just a matter of position. It's a contributing factor, sure, but it doesn't explain everything away.

And yeah, red flags, plural. Not only won't he get to the line, which is bad, but he'll also pass up high percentage looks that involve contact in favor of his midrange game. If all he's going to do is shoot midrange and a little form three then I want no part of him. Plus he's never likely to be any good fighting through screens or doing any of the myriad other things NBA players do that involve a lot of contact.

[fredericklove]

I'm nitpicking because people seem to be willing forgive Lamb all manner of failings as a prospect, while being mostly unwilling to do anything close to the same with other prospects they don't have any e-cred invested in.

If Lamb doesn't find some killer instinct in a box of crackerjacks or something it doesn't just mean he's a 3rd banana jump shooter, it also means he'll never realize his defensive potential. That r=fear of contact taints his whole game. Once you take the D out of the mix he's not really a lottery pick.

I also don't really care that he was playing at SF. I've seen him make enough bone-headed decisions that it's not just a matter of position. It's a contributing factor, sure, but it doesn't explain everything away.

And yeah, red flags, plural. Not only won't he get to the line, which is bad, but he'll also pass up high percentage looks that involve contact in favor of his midrange game. If all he's going to do is shoot midrange and a little form three then I want no part of him. Plus he's never likely to be any good fighting through screens or doing any of the myriad other things NBA players do that involve a lot of contact.

Idk how it relates to defensive potential if u were to really talk about afraid body contact, he's one w/ long arms length and heaveily uses his long arm advantage to intercept passing lane, your way of saying his lack of killer instinct offensively will manifest his defensive side, that's not true. Physically, he'll get stronger in the NBA, and he'll be picking alot of pockets due to his length advantage.

Now you're just bluffing us, anyone that watches enough of him knows he plays completely different brand of ball game in those two positions. At SF, his' ball-handling duties are limited, rather being used as guy coming off screen only. As SG, he's asked to be secondary ball-handler, which helps him immensely cos he can impose his scoring will at people due to the amount of touches he got. So you really undervalue the difference between the two positions and the impact it imposes on Lamb's game.

You do know strength can be worked on in the NBA right? Especially when you have FRICKIN' ALEX MACKENZIE to help you on your body, w/ those strengths and added muscles it'll help him fighting thru screens, you have to know he's getting stronger compared to off-season. He's still got the frame to add muscle, he's not someone like Durant w/ that anorexic type of body.

[Waylon Mercy]

Not sure if srs. Some people here are like praying for Lamb to drop to 8 when he is most def going to be available and saying we will pick him 100%.

So is this about people trying to bring Lamb down because their annoyed about other
peoples love for him?

Of all the players that are rumored to be in our range does Lamb not fill our most pressing
needs?

[5DOM]

I'm nitpicking because people seem to be willing forgive Lamb all manner of failings as a prospect, while being mostly unwilling to do anything close to the same with other prospects they don't have any e-cred invested in.

So you are nitpicking because of the people here? Perhaps there's a reason why many are excited about him

I also don't really care that he was playing at SF. I've seen him make enough bone-headed decisions that it's not just a matter of position. It's a contributing factor, sure, but it doesn't explain everything away.

Maybe it's a confirmation bias? He averages 2.0 turnovers in 37mins playing in a messed up offense. While the # of turnovers certainly doesn't tell the whole story, neither does "I've seen him make enough bone-headed decisions". Every player makes mistakes and he's no exception.

And yeah, red flags, plural. Not only won't he get to the line, which is bad, but he'll also pass up high percentage looks that involve contact in favor of his midrange game. If all he's going to do is shoot midrange and a little form three then I want no part of him. Plus he's never likely to be any good fighting through screens or doing any of the myriad other things NBA players do that involve a lot of contact.

Again, he averaged 17.7ppg on 59TS%. He fights through screens just as well as anybody in college, and his midrange game - which he favors - is actually pretty damn good. It's true that he avoids contact but at the same time Drummond's clogging the lane anyway

[Fenris-77]

The midrange game isn't just good, it's fantastic. It's only thing that saves him from mediocrity really. Don't make excuses for the contact thing though. It's not Drummond's fault, or anyone but Lamb's. it's correctable for sure, but I always have doubts about guys with Lamb's demeanor when it comes to improving their game.

And no, it's not the people here, so much as the one-sided appreciation of Lamb's strengths and weaknesses. I'm not suggesting that people shouldn;t beexcited about him either, just that they be honest about his weaknesses, which, for the most part, they aren't. Whatevs.

Confirmation bias? Hardly. I wasn't critiquing his TOs, rather the wide open looks he has where he can get high percentage shots for team mates that he passes up to take ill-advised and contested jump shots. The DX video scouting report on him has a couple of examples of what I'm talking about. I'll grant that the UConn environment plays a role in this, but that's not the whole story.

@Waylon - no, I don't really think he fills the team's pressing needs all that well at the mo. Not if he's going to be a soft jump shooter anyway, and that's what he looks like. I'd love to have him prove me wrong.

@fred - Yeah, you can work on strength in the NBA. On the otherh and Lamb was pretty much the skinniest dude at the combine, so he's got a whole shizz-ton of work to do on that score. Plus he's 20, not 18, so it's not like he hasn't had time to hit the weight room until now.

[Undefeated]

Now you're just bluffing us, anyone that watches enough of him knows he plays completely different brand of ball game in those two positions. At SF, his' ball-handling duties are limited, rather being used as guy coming off screen only. As SG, he's asked to be secondary ball-handler, which helps him immensely cos he can impose his scoring will at people due to the amount of touches he got. So you really undervalue the difference between the two positions and the impact it imposes on Lamb's game.

Exactly. When people bring up the I couldn't careless about the SF argument, it only shows me how much they've actually seen of Lamb play. It was a world of difference when Lamb didn't have to share the ball with Boatright and Napier. Anyone remember his game against Villanova? He literally went HAM scoring in a variety of ways; shooting step-backs comfortably, short pull-ups from the elbow, wetting jumpers off of a front right-to-left change, floaters down middle, and an assortment of teardrops. Granted it was a one game display, but it supported my view that throughout the whole season when Lamb didn't have to spend time with either one of those ball hogs in the backcourt, he looked very engaged offensively and was very decisive in his moves. Same thing happened in the NCAA Tournament against Iowa State for like a 5 minute stretch when he decided to step on the brakes and display his offensive dominance. Of course there were times when Lamb would absolutely shy away from contact when he had an opening in the defense to attack just like any other player who at times would "settle", but that's on his supreme confidence to drill those two-pointers at such an efficient rate. But it comes back to the point about his feel for the basket. You look at some of the best slashing/penetrating Guards in the NBA like D-Wade and D-Rose as prime examples and Tony Parker and Ty Lawson to a lesser extent, what they all have common is their bag of tricks when it comes to getting their shot off within 5-feet of the basket. And that's exactly what I've seen from Lamb when he does decide not to settle, so the criticism that he has a phobia even just a touch aren't true at all. Just like those guys I've mentioned, his touch around the basket is phenomenal and almost unstoppable rarely missing. He releases the ball high and quick getting the perfect arch to get over the top of the out-stretched arms of a shot-blocker before stopping on two-feet. If not, he uses that last step to extend it into a lay-up at the rim. At this stage, you kind of expect prospects to finish with either hand, yet so many don't, but Lamb does. He's a very fast thinker when he has to score inside like using his inside hand to finish when he beats his defender and using his back to shield the ball from being blocked against the defender trying to recover or the weakside trailer while at the same increasing the probability of a three point play. It's like the hole gets bigger when he's there. Basically, I see a prospect who has some refining to do, but the skills are there. It's overblown that Lamb is utterly afraid of any contact even a single touch of the fingertips.

[fredericklove]

No, Will Barton is the skinniest 2 guard at the combine. Not Lamb. And like I said, he's showing signs of body transition, his arm/shoulder is showing abit of definition right now. And like I said, don't ignore it again, Alex Mac is one of the best in the business of body development, Lamb will be in good hand. Don't worry about that.

Also not all people ignore his weaknesses. I worry about his ability to take over a game, and worry about his non-verbal behavior on the court, and his intensity level too.

[Fenris-77]

That's an awfully long paragraph to tell us what we already know. Dude has an unreal midrange game (and floater) when hes dialed in. But he still doesn't get to the line and he still can't decide if he wants to defend or not. The key there is the deciding to settle bit IMO - Lamb settles far to often for a shot that won't get to the line. He shoots well from the line, and he'd look phenomenal if he were willing to absorb more contact and take a pass on some of those floaters and pull-ups.

To say that he doesn't shy away from contact is silly though. He obviously does. If that weren't the case he'd be going to the line 6-7 times a game easy.

[Garmfay]

Fernis give it up. I said the same things, others have too, they just can't accept it.

[Waylon Mercy]

The midrange game isn't just good, it's fantastic. It's only thing that saves him from mediocrity really. Don't make excuses for the contact thing though. It's not Drummond's fault, or anyone but Lamb's. it's correctable for sure, but I always have doubts about guys with Lamb's demeanor when it comes to improving their game.

And no, it's not the people here, so much as the one-sided appreciation of Lamb's strengths and weaknesses. I'm not suggesting that people shouldn;t beexcited about him either, just that they be honest about his weaknesses, which, for the most part, they aren't. Whatevs.

Confirmation bias? Hardly. I wasn't critiquing his TOs, rather the wide open looks he has where he can get high percentage shots for team mates that he passes up to take ill-advised and contested jump shots. The DX video scouting report on him has a couple of examples of what I'm talking about. I'll grant that the UConn environment plays a role in this, but that's not the whole story.

@Waylon - no, I don't really think he fills the team's pressing needs all that well at the mo. Not if he's going to be a soft jump shooter anyway, and that's what he looks like. I'd love to have him prove me wrong.

@fred - Yeah, you can work on strength in the NBA. On the otherh and Lamb was pretty much the skinniest dude at the combine, so he's got a whole shizz-ton of work to do on that score. Plus he's 20, not 18, so it's not like he hasn't had time to hit the weight room until now.

Really?

Last time I checked our starting wings DeRozan and JJ can't shoot a 3 to save their life
or create their own offence that well. Would also be nice to have a wing who isn't a glaring
tweener and does what his position requires.