Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains

[God Squad]

If u said top 15. Sure. No problem. Top 10? Even with kawhi out all year its not happening lol . U cant matter of factly say hes top 10 when hes just objectively not.

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He objectively had a higher RAPM in 2019-20 than Embiid or Dame ever did in their careers. You underrate Tatum because he plays for a division rival. That doesn't change the fact that he's a top-10 level player.

Doesn't Embiid play for the Sixers?

Look, Tatum is an excellent player but to say he's a top 10 player is absolutely absurd. There are clearly at least 10 guys better than him in this league.

Secondly, you can't go out and say Tatum is a top 10 player and then say that Boston is going to win 45 games. I believe HumbleRen said that. If he's a top 10 player and Brown is a top 25 player then that should be an elite NBA squad considering many people on here believe a superstar is all you need to win in this league.

45 wins is a lower seed playoff team in the east. That is marginally better than where we are at and we are in rebuild mode.

That's such a flawed approach at evlaulating teams. There are so many variables including the rest of the starters, bench and coach. IMO Bostons starters, bench and coach are all suspect this year. I don't like the Richardson pickup or the Horford trade personally. Outside of Brown and Tatum I only like Smart and Robert Williams (underrated). The rest of their team is booty IMHO. Their new Coach in Udoka is an unknown, but could pay off. But again, I don't think this should be an indictment on Brown and Tatum as a competent GM should be able to round out the team soon enough.

[Raps in 4]

If u said top 15. Sure. No problem. Top 10? Even with kawhi out all year its not happening lol . U cant matter of factly say hes top 10 when hes just objectively not.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

He objectively had a higher RAPM in 2019-20 than Embiid or Dame ever did in their careers. You underrate Tatum because he plays for a division rival. That doesn't change the fact that he's a top-10 level player.

Doesn't Embiid play for the Sixers?

Look, Tatum is an excellent player but to say he's a top 10 player is absolutely absurd. There are clearly at least 10 guys better than him in this league.

Secondly, you can't go out and say Tatum is a top 10 player and then say that Boston is going to win 45 games. I believe HumbleRen said that. If he's a top 10 player and Brown is a top 25 player then that should be an elite NBA squad considering many people on here believe a superstar is all you need to win in this league.

45 wins is a lower seed playoff team in the east. That is marginally better than where we are at and we are in rebuild mode.

The last time the Celtics were healthy, they won 48 games in a shortened season (55 wins in a full season) and knocked us out in the playoffs.

[everdiso]

The Celtics do worse than projected literally every single year and people still pump their tires relentlessly.

It's so weird.

[everdiso]

He objectively had a higher RAPM in 2019-20 than Embiid or Dame ever did in their careers. You underrate Tatum because he plays for a division rival. That doesn't change the fact that he's a top-10 level player.

Doesn't Embiid play for the Sixers?

Look, Tatum is an excellent player but to say he's a top 10 player is absolutely absurd. There are clearly at least 10 guys better than him in this league.

Secondly, you can't go out and say Tatum is a top 10 player and then say that Boston is going to win 45 games. I believe HumbleRen said that. If he's a top 10 player and Brown is a top 25 player then that should be an elite NBA squad considering many people on here believe a superstar is all you need to win in this league.

45 wins is a lower seed playoff team in the east. That is marginally better than where we are at and we are in rebuild mode.

The last time the Celtics were healthy, they won 48 games (.667 winning percentage) in a shortened season and knocked us out in the playoffs.

They were projected for much more than 48 wins that year, but as always fell short of expectations again.

[Raps in 4]

Doesn't Embiid play for the Sixers?

Look, Tatum is an excellent player but to say he's a top 10 player is absolutely absurd. There are clearly at least 10 guys better than him in this league.

Secondly, you can't go out and say Tatum is a top 10 player and then say that Boston is going to win 45 games. I believe HumbleRen said that. If he's a top 10 player and Brown is a top 25 player then that should be an elite NBA squad considering many people on here believe a superstar is all you need to win in this league.

45 wins is a lower seed playoff team in the east. That is marginally better than where we are at and we are in rebuild mode.

The last time the Celtics were healthy, they won 48 games (.667 winning percentage) in a shortened season and knocked us out in the playoffs.

They were projected for much more than 48 wins that year, but as always fell short of expectations again.

They were on pace for 55 wins in a full season. That's an elite team. They also beat us in the playoffs.

[Los_29]

He objectively had a higher RAPM in 2019-20 than Embiid or Dame ever did in their careers. You underrate Tatum because he plays for a division rival. That doesn't change the fact that he's a top-10 level player.

Doesn't Embiid play for the Sixers?

Look, Tatum is an excellent player but to say he's a top 10 player is absolutely absurd. There are clearly at least 10 guys better than him in this league.

Secondly, you can't go out and say Tatum is a top 10 player and then say that Boston is going to win 45 games. I believe HumbleRen said that. If he's a top 10 player and Brown is a top 25 player then that should be an elite NBA squad considering many people on here believe a superstar is all you need to win in this league.

45 wins is a lower seed playoff team in the east. That is marginally better than where we are at and we are in rebuild mode.

The last time the Celtics were healthy, they won 48 games in a shortened season (55 wins in a full season) and knocked us out in the playoffs.

Yes, with their 2nd best player being Kemba Walker who averaged 20/4/5.

Brown and Tatum while playing 58 and 64 games respectively were a .500 team last year. Both of them played more games than any of our best players.

I'd be absolutely stunned if Boston finished higher than the following teams: Nets, Bucks, Heat, Sixers and Hawks. If Brown and Tatum are as good as people say they are, then they need to finish a lot higher than that. A top 10 player and a top 25 player finishing in the play-in game?

[Raps in 4]

Doesn't Embiid play for the Sixers?

Look, Tatum is an excellent player but to say he's a top 10 player is absolutely absurd. There are clearly at least 10 guys better than him in this league.

Secondly, you can't go out and say Tatum is a top 10 player and then say that Boston is going to win 45 games. I believe HumbleRen said that. If he's a top 10 player and Brown is a top 25 player then that should be an elite NBA squad considering many people on here believe a superstar is all you need to win in this league.

45 wins is a lower seed playoff team in the east. That is marginally better than where we are at and we are in rebuild mode.

The last time the Celtics were healthy, they won 48 games in a shortened season (55 wins in a full season) and knocked us out in the playoffs.

Yes, with their 2nd best player being Kemba Walker who averaged 20/4/5.

Brown and Tatum while playing 58 and 64 games respectively were a .500 team last year. Both of them played more games than any of our best players.

I'd be absolutely stunned if Boston finished higher than the following teams: Nets, Bucks, Heat, Sixers and Hawks. If Brown and Tatum are as good as people say they are, then they need to finish a lot higher than that. A top 10 player and a top 25 player finishing in the play-in game?

The Celtics had more player minutes missed due to COVID last season than any other team. Tatum had to use an inhaler when he came back. It took him months to get back to 100%.

You can hate on the Celtics without putting blinders on and ignoring the truth.

[Los_29]

The last time the Celtics were healthy, they won 48 games in a shortened season (55 wins in a full season) and knocked us out in the playoffs.

Yes, with their 2nd best player being Kemba Walker who averaged 20/4/5.

Brown and Tatum while playing 58 and 64 games respectively were a .500 team last year. Both of them played more games than any of our best players.

I'd be absolutely stunned if Boston finished higher than the following teams: Nets, Bucks, Heat, Sixers and Hawks. If Brown and Tatum are as good as people say they are, then they need to finish a lot higher than that. A top 10 player and a top 25 player finishing in the play-in game?

The Celtics had more player minutes missed due to COVID last season than any other team. Tatum had to use an inhaler when he came back from COVID. It took him months to get back to 100%.

You can hate on the Celtics without putting blinders on and ignoring the truth.

You're the one denying actual facts. I don't hate on the Celtics, I'm just being realistic as to what kind of team they are and I'm not trying to make outlandish claims that Tatum is a top 10 player. It's an absolute fact that the Raptors best players missed way more games than Tatum and Brown. You can bring up covid all you want but our best players also got covid, then they had additional injuries and then were rested frequently for two months. Despite all this they were only a few games back of the Celtics. lol

[LiSTWithLani]

No use in changing their minds, they’ll just have to witness it this upcoming season.

If u said top 15. Sure. No problem. Top 10? Even with kawhi out all year its not happening lol . U cant matter of factly say hes top 10 when hes just objectively not.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Tatum is a top 11, top 12 player. I agree that he’s not top 10 but it’s kind of splitting hairs. I can see arguments made that can put him right at 10 based on what someone puts more weight on.

I think that he's on par with George, Butler, etc. Ahead of Zion, behind the top 10 for sure.
I view him as a 12-15 range player. He doesn't make a team better by swapping with any of the top 10 guys listed above.

Lani@LaniStern.com

[canada_dry]

No use in changing their minds, they’ll just have to witness it this upcoming season.

If u said top 15. Sure. No problem. Top 10? Even with kawhi out all year its not happening lol . U cant matter of factly say hes top 10 when hes just objectively not.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Tatum is a top 11, top 12 player. I agree that he’s not top 10 but it’s kind of splitting hairs. I can see arguments made that can put him right at 10 based on what someone puts more weight on.

I really dont think the arguments can be made. Like i said before, the drop off from 10-11, to the next group of guys, is large. U go from lillard/AD to Jimmy/tatum. Its a drop off. Hes firmly not in the top 10, which even ud agree to. The fact that certain people need to be so stubborn and debate tatum as top 10 despite seeing a list of clearly 10+ guys better than him is very very Real GMish and hilarious.

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[Raps in 4]

Yes, with their 2nd best player being Kemba Walker who averaged 20/4/5.

Brown and Tatum while playing 58 and 64 games respectively were a .500 team last year. Both of them played more games than any of our best players.

I'd be absolutely stunned if Boston finished higher than the following teams: Nets, Bucks, Heat, Sixers and Hawks. If Brown and Tatum are as good as people say they are, then they need to finish a lot higher than that. A top 10 player and a top 25 player finishing in the play-in game?

The Celtics had more player minutes missed due to COVID last season than any other team. Tatum had to use an inhaler when he came back from COVID. It took him months to get back to 100%.

You can hate on the Celtics without putting blinders on and ignoring the truth.

You're the one denying actual facts. I don't hate on the Celtics, I'm just being realistic as to what kind of team they are and I'm not trying to make outlandish claims that Tatum is a top 10 player. It's an absolute fact that the Raptors best players missed way more games than Tatum and Brown. You can bring up covid all you want but our best players also got covid, then they had additional injuries and then were rested frequently for two months. Despite all this they were only a few games back of the Celtics. lol

We were 9 games back of the Celtics last season.

You keep using last season to say that this is who the Celtics are while arguing that it wasn't representative of who we are.

How about we compare teams in 2019-20 when:

1. The Celtics were better than us (they beat us in the playoffs)

2. Tatum had a top-10 (top-3) RAPM that season

If anyone got worse from last year, it's us as our most productive player (Lowry) is no longer on the team. We are replacing his production with raw, young guys (Barnes, Flynn, Precious) who need time to develop.

[pingpongrac]

The Celtics had more player minutes missed due to COVID last season than any other team. Tatum had to use an inhaler when he came back from COVID. It took him months to get back to 100%.

You can hate on the Celtics without putting blinders on and ignoring the truth.

You're the one denying actual facts. I don't hate on the Celtics, I'm just being realistic as to what kind of team they are and I'm not trying to make outlandish claims that Tatum is a top 10 player. It's an absolute fact that the Raptors best players missed way more games than Tatum and Brown. You can bring up covid all you want but our best players also got covid, then they had additional injuries and then were rested frequently for two months. Despite all this they were only a few games back of the Celtics. lol

We were 9 games back of the Celtics last season.

You keep using last season to say that this is who the Celtics are while arguing that it wasn't representative of who we are.

How about we compare teams in 2019-20 when:

1. The Celtics were better than us (they beat us in the playoffs)

2. Tatum had a top-10 (top-3) RAPM that season

If anyone got worse from last year, it's us as our most productive player (Lowry) is no longer on the team. We are replacing his production with raw, young guys (Barnes, Flynn, Precious) who need time to develop.

The reality is somewhere in the middle. We were 9 games back of the Celtics because we blatantly tanked the last 1/4 of the season. Even after our massive losing streak during the COVID absences, Boston was only 3 games ahead at the trade deadline.

Just because Boston beat us in the bubble playoffs, it doesn't mean they were better. It took Siakam to play at his absolute worst on the offensive end while Smart averaged 16/6/5 on 60 TS% during that series. Tatum was the best player in that series (24/10/5 on 55 TS%), but he wasn't a top 10 player that year. Siakam put up almost identical numbers (22.9/7.3/3.5 on .554 TS% vs 23.4/7.0/3.0 on .567 TS%) and made All-NBA 2nd team, but did anyone really think Siakam was a top 10 player in that season? Tatum was marginally more impactful and played better in the bubble, but not enough to justify crowning him as a top 10 player. Giannis, Harden, Luka, Kawhi, LeBron, Lillard, AD, Embiid, Jokic and Beal were all clearly better. Then there were many others who were at least as good (Butler, Mitchell, Ingram, Booker, George) and a few more comparables (Siakam, Middleton, Westbrook).

It's weird how you keep pointing to RAPM (which isn't a good stat for a single season) to prove Tatum is/was a top 10 player. Tatum was in the top 25 for some other advanced stats in 19/20 (6th in NetRTG, 11th in VORP, 22nd in OBPM) while averaging 23/7/3 on a solid 57 TS%, but he wasn't a top 10 player then and he still wasn't last season either.

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[Los_29]

The Celtics had more player minutes missed due to COVID last season than any other team. Tatum had to use an inhaler when he came back from COVID. It took him months to get back to 100%.

You can hate on the Celtics without putting blinders on and ignoring the truth.

You're the one denying actual facts. I don't hate on the Celtics, I'm just being realistic as to what kind of team they are and I'm not trying to make outlandish claims that Tatum is a top 10 player. It's an absolute fact that the Raptors best players missed way more games than Tatum and Brown. You can bring up covid all you want but our best players also got covid, then they had additional injuries and then were rested frequently for two months. Despite all this they were only a few games back of the Celtics. lol

We were 9 games back of the Celtics last season.

You keep using last season to say that this is who the Celtics are while arguing that it wasn't representative of who we are.

How about we compare teams in 2019-20 when:

1. The Celtics were better than us (they beat us in the playoffs)

2. Tatum had a top-10 (top-3) RAPM that season

If anyone got worse from last year, it's us as our most productive player (Lowry) is no longer on the team. We are replacing his production with raw, young guys (Barnes, Flynn, Precious) who need time to develop.

Yes, we finished 9 games back of the Celtics but are you trying to suggest we were operating under normal circumstances? Do you mind telling me how many games FVV, Pascal, Lowry, OG, Boucher and GTJ missed last year? You don't think we would've had a few more wins had we not blatantly tanked for the last two months?

Also, I don't care who got worse. But we also need to remember that Lowry missed nearly 30 games last year and in the games he did play, we were a .500 team. Without OG, Pascal and FVV we were significantly worse. We will at the very least have the same winning percentage as last year. But the most likely scenario is 37-43 wins in my opinion.

I'm also not saying we are better than the Celtics and I am not saying we are going to compete for a title next year. What I'm saying is that Tatum isn't a top 10 player and that the Celtics are going to be a lower seed playoff team this year. Tatum/Brown aren't a championship duo in today's NBA if people expect them to only win 45 games.

And that's the biggest difference between us and the Celtics. One team is in rebuilding mode while the other team has failed miserably in the playoffs and are picking up players like Dennis Schroeder and Al Horford. That's pretty treadmillish if you ask me.

[Raps in 4]

Yes, we finished 9 games back of the Celtics but are you trying to suggest we were operating under normal circumstances?

Are you trying to suggest that Boston was?

Tatum/Brown aren't a championship duo in today's NBA if people expect them to only win 45 games.

What "people" expect them to win has no bearing on how good they are. Analysts have the memories of gold fish. They assume that last season was representative of how good or bad a team was, completely ignoring context. A random RGM poster has more credibility than a sports "analyst".

And that's the biggest difference between us and the Celtics. One team is in rebuilding mode while the other team has failed miserably in the playoffs and are picking up players like Dennis Schroeder and Al Horford. That's pretty treadmillish if you ask me.

A core consisting of a 23 and 25 year-old, who are top-10 and top-25 players, respectively, and who have reached the ECF twice already, has somehow "failed miserably" in the playoffs and is on a treadmill?

[everdiso]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

So DPM the most trusted of all the metrics.

Here's how the raps and celts compare in DPM (mostly in order of mpg):

Siakam 1.9 (#40) --- Tatum 3.0 (#19)
VanVleet 1.7 ----- Brown 1.5
Anunoby 1.7 ----- Smart 1.5
Dragic -0.6 -------- Schroder -1.3
Trent -2.1 ---------- Richardson -1.5

Birch -0.1 ---------- Horford -1.9
Boucher 1.0 ------ Kanter 0.9
Barnes --- ---------- Williams 1.6

Flynn -1.6 ---------- Pritchard -0.6
Achiuwa -3.2 ----- Nesmith -2.4
Watanabe -1.3 --- Hernangomez -1.6
Mykhailuk -2.0 --- GWilliams -2.1
Bonga 0.0 ---------- Parker -0.2
Gillespie -2.6 ----- Langford -2.3
Dekker ---- ---------- Fernando -2.1

[everdiso]

The Celtics had more player minutes missed due to COVID last season than any other team. Tatum had to use an inhaler when he came back from COVID. It took him months to get back to 100%.

You can hate on the Celtics without putting blinders on and ignoring the truth.

You're the one denying actual facts. I don't hate on the Celtics, I'm just being realistic as to what kind of team they are and I'm not trying to make outlandish claims that Tatum is a top 10 player. It's an absolute fact that the Raptors best players missed way more games than Tatum and Brown. You can bring up covid all you want but our best players also got covid, then they had additional injuries and then were rested frequently for two months. Despite all this they were only a few games back of the Celtics. lol

We were 9 games back of the Celtics last season.

You keep using last season to say that this is who the Celtics are while arguing that it wasn't representative of who we are.

How about we compare teams in 2019-20 when:

1. The Celtics were better than us (they beat us in the playoffs)

2. Tatum had a top-10 (top-3) RAPM that season

If anyone got worse from last year, it's us as our most productive player (Lowry) is no longer on the team. We are replacing his production with raw, young guys (Barnes, Flynn, Precious) who need time to develop.

We quite literally benched starters most every game in the 2nd half to help the tank, and still only finished 9gms worse than a Celtics team trying to contend.

[Los_29]

You're the one denying actual facts. I don't hate on the Celtics, I'm just being realistic as to what kind of team they are and I'm not trying to make outlandish claims that Tatum is a top 10 player. It's an absolute fact that the Raptors best players missed way more games than Tatum and Brown. You can bring up covid all you want but our best players also got covid, then they had additional injuries and then were rested frequently for two months. Despite all this they were only a few games back of the Celtics. lol

We were 9 games back of the Celtics last season.

You keep using last season to say that this is who the Celtics are while arguing that it wasn't representative of who we are.

How about we compare teams in 2019-20 when:

1. The Celtics were better than us (they beat us in the playoffs)

2. Tatum had a top-10 (top-3) RAPM that season

If anyone got worse from last year, it's us as our most productive player (Lowry) is no longer on the team. We are replacing his production with raw, young guys (Barnes, Flynn, Precious) who need time to develop.

We quite literally benched starters most every game in the 2nd half to help the tank, and still only finished 9gms worse than a Celtics team trying to contend.

For some reason they just can't acknowledge this.

[LiSTWithLani]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

So DPM the most trusted of all the metrics.

Here's how the raps and celts compare in DPM (mostly in order of mpg):

Siakam 1.9 (#40) --- Tatum 3.0 (#19)
VanVleet 1.7 ----- Brown 1.5
Anunoby 1.7 ----- Smart 1.5
Dragic -0.6 -------- Schroder -1.3
Trent -2.1 ---------- Richardson -1.5

Birch -0.1 ---------- Horford -1.9
Boucher 1.0 ------ Kanter 0.9
Barnes --- ---------- Williams 1.6

Flynn -1.6 ---------- Pritchard -0.6
Achiuwa -3.2 ----- Nesmith -2.4
Watanabe -1.3 --- Hernangomez -1.6
Mykhailuk -2.0 --- GWilliams -2.1
Bonga 0.0 ---------- Parker -0.2
Gillespie -2.6 ----- Langford -2.3
Dekker ---- ---------- Fernando -2.1

Those numbers look pretty similar, with the one outlier being Tatum. I'm not sure how much of a positive that is for them exactly.

If playing next to a very good player, #19 in the league, doesn't buoy other teammates' numbers, what will?

Outside of four guys: Tatum, Brown, Smart & Williams, I don't see much worth commenting on for them.

That being said, I'm higher on Barnes, Flynn, Achiuwa, Trent and Boucher than any guy not named above on the Celtics.

I really feel that given all of their draft capital, they should easily be further ahead than us. Instead, they seem to be on par or slightly behind us. The mismanagement of assets for their franchise has to be disheartening for their fans. They *should* be in full compete mode, with young studs and in-prime vets. Instead, they missed the boat with Kyrie, misjudged Kemba and missed Horford's window.

Lani@LaniStern.com

[Clay Davis]

So, after so many pages of discussion, is there a verdict on the Celtics being a treadmill team?

[AkelaLoneWolf]

So, after so many pages of discussion, is there a verdict on the Celtics being a treadmill team?

It’s difficult to say how the Celtics are a treadmill team with their blue chip prospects but they’re still overhyped by the National media. I’m not sure why people are necessarily comparing them to us. They started rebuilding when they traded Pierce and Garnett. We just started rebuilding last year. Were way behind in that arc of development.