Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[PoundTown]

Scottie's path to being a perrenial all star and someone on the 2nd or 3rd all NBA team, is realizing that the 3s he made last night were the 3s he should be taking. That his bread and butter scoring will be going to the hoop and being a master of the midrange, and marrying those strengths with his passing. It's fine for him to mix some high pick and roll in there, but if he wants to be dominant, it's going to be about him forcing position inside and starting with the ball inside the arc. It's really up to him if he wants to kind of limit his game to what Draymond is doing, or add an extra element of scoring there. The defence and overall consistency of intensity, not taking plays off has been way better this year. I think he will never be as pure of a scorer as we are hoping for, but he could be a 1B or strong second option with an all around game, like a prime Lowry and given his size and defence, that would be a perrenial all star. Once he figures out where he scores efficiently and hones in on that, I could see a peak of something like 23, 8 boards, 7 assists, 3 stocks, low turnovers, around a .58 TS% and great overall defence. But, if he does get that true number 1 option, it might be more like a 21, 8, 6 but super impactful player. Would be really nice to get that top 4 pick this year to find Scottie his eventual batman, so he can play Robin offensively.

[Raps in 4]

Ben Simmons at his peak was another Draymond Green clone. If that's Scottie's ceiling, it's fine, but we're obviously hoping to get more than out of him.

Some similarities, but definitely much more of a threat to drive than Draymond.

ben simmons pre-injury was insane, and way more talented....even compared to Lebron James without a jumper

He was completely ineffective outside of 3 feet and you could hack-a-Shaq him because he couldn't hit a FT to save his life. He was arguably the best defender in the NBA and an excellent passer, but his scoring ability was comically limited. Scottie is already a much more dynamic scorer than Simmons ever was. Simmons was basically Poeltl with better passing in terms of impact.

[Drakeem]

It's funny how quickly and drastically the pendulum can swing when emotions run high.

Yes, Scottie doesn't seem to project to be that #1 player that we would hope for him to be. It's natural to have that initial disappointment with that. However, a 20ppg scorer that's a triple double threat with incredibly versatile defensive capabilities is nothing to scoff at. Assuming he does nothing but change his shot diet to areas that he's better at, he'll be a perennial all star player. I can't be disappointed in that.

[tsherkin]

It's funny how quickly and drastically the pendulum can swing when emotions run high.

Yes, Scottie doesn't seem to project to be that #1 player that we would hope for him to be. It's natural to have that initial disappointment with that. However, a 20ppg scorer that's a triple double threat with incredibly versatile defensive capabilities is nothing to scoff at. Assuming he does nothing but change his shot diet to areas that he's better at, he'll be a perennial all star player. I can't be disappointed in that.

This escapes the point. though. When we start trying to win, he shouldnt be a 20 ppg scorer unless there are huge changes innhis performance. Doesnt mean he cant be integral to the team but volume scoring has notbeen working well for him.

[Clay Davis]

It's funny how quickly and drastically the pendulum can swing when emotions run high.

Yes, Scottie doesn't seem to project to be that #1 player that we would hope for him to be. It's natural to have that initial disappointment with that. However, a 20ppg scorer that's a triple double threat with incredibly versatile defensive capabilities is nothing to scoff at. Assuming he does nothing but change his shot diet to areas that he's better at, he'll be a perennial all star player. I can't be disappointed in that.

This escapes the point. though. When we start trying to win, he shouldnt be a 20 ppg scorer unless there are huge changes innhis performance. Doesnt mean he cant be integral to the team but volume scoring has notbeen working well for him.

He'll probably average over 20 ppg just by the basic fact that very few players have the physical rizz to withstand injuries; every 2nd banana has stretches in a season where they need to be the number 1 banana. The bunch of bananas, if you will permit the analogy to go further, never has a consistent alpha male that's able to constantly be present. When you bake banana bread, you grab the bunch on hand, even if you have to roll with the punch. Otherwise, you should go elsewhere for lunch.

In those stretches he'll average more points per game than 20. Anyway my point is is that he doesn't need to be a premiere, consistent first-option to be serviceable over the course of a season; being able to step into that role intermittently, even if's not ideal, is necessary.

[mdenny]

Fact is.....siakam was a far more promising player in his fourth season.

The scotty brigade was totally delusional (also toxic) the past 3 years.

[Godaddycurse]

Fact is.....siakam was a far more promising player in his fourth season.

The scotty brigade was totally delusional (also toxic) the past 3 years.

Siakam played with a much better team though.

[djsunyc]

if he is healthy, i am fairly confident that there will be strong push for scottie to make an all-defensive team next year. it will be messaged by the organization and they will try to get the word around via podcasts/interviews so he can get some good PR for voting. they're gonna plant the seeds from preseason.

[HangTime]

Fact is.....siakam was a far more promising player in his fourth season.

The scotty brigade was totally delusional (also toxic) the past 3 years.

In Scottie's rookie year, it was clear that we should develop around him.

It took till year 3 (and a coaching change) to start the process.


So, this not your typical 4th year player.

He's more like a 2nd year NBA Player, that has previous "pro" experience.
Think of him like an international prospect.

Also, Darko isn't making it easy for him (do you see the lineups he's been apart of).
This great for development, the numbers won't show it.

[AbC?]

He's going to be an amazing glue guy on a contender one day, in his late 20s, early 30s, once the expectations and hope of being being the face of a franchise, cornerstone piece die down. Put him next to an MVP caliber player and 2 more better offensive options than him and he will thrive as a the 4th option, defense-focused, utility player. Like Aaron Gordon, Igoudala, Boris Diaw, Lamar Odom, Shane Battier etc.

[Scase]

Fact is.....siakam was a far more promising player in his fourth season.

The scotty brigade was totally delusional (also toxic) the past 3 years.

Siakam played with a much better team though.

Like an absurdly better team. He absolutely wasn't more promising, and was barely even better.

The only real edge he had was efficiency, which TBF is very important, but Siakam was still well below league average at 55% TS%.

20/8/6/1.4/1.1 on 53% TS%
23/7/3.5/1/1 on 55% TS%

Not to mention Scottie was/is 2 years younger. I get some people don't like Scottie, but some of this stuff is just insane to read. Siakam never had more promise or a higher ceiling, and he was arguably providing the same production, with a WAY better supporting staff.

[Reeko]

Fact is.....siakam was a far more promising player in his fourth season.

The scotty brigade was totally delusional (also toxic) the past 3 years.

Pascal was also 25 in his fourth season. But let's ignore that fact since it doesn't help your narrative.

[Reeko]

When Pascal was 23 he was coming off the bench averaging 7ppg.

[RoteSchroder]

I mean, both can be true? Orlando also really got hosed this year. Toronto and Orlando are probably two of the top teams with time missed by their starters. I don't think this nullifies the argument too much unless you can point to every team having the same situation.

Orlando has had 9 losing seasons being at the bottom of the league since 2012-2013. In their 3 playoff seasons, they were 8th seed, 7th seed and 5th last year. What’s worse is that almost all their players hit like under 34% from 3. They have the lowest 3 point % as a team at 30.5%. Puke.

That is just god damn brutal and not really something I’d want to emulate.

And yet, despite more injuries, those injuries being from better/more impactful players, and a significantly worse 3pt %, they are still only 1 game under .500 and would be a top 4 team with even half the injuries. But since we're talking about their 3 point ranking, seems only fair to bring up their 2nd ranked defence no? At least they are elite at something.

Meanwhile, we have one of the worst records in the league, also a bad 3p shooting team, and a fraction of the injuries, with 2 seasons in a row, and 3 of the last 5 years in the 20 win range. Probably shouldnt be chucking stones from our glass house.

If people want to complain about how long they were tanking, go for it, but you cannot argue that they are a bad or even mediocre team. Their entire core is young and very talented, with more success than our entire team in less time, maybe we match or exceed that performance, but until we do, it's kinda stupid to criticize them when we aren't even sniffing their performance, especially when you look at the utter waste of time the last 5 years have been.

I guarantee you, barring any major injuries, or us getting the 1st OA pick or finding some generational player, they will achieve more success than us in the next 5-10 years.

yeah, they're still near 0.500 because of their defense.

How do they have "more success than our entire team in less time"? They spent over a decade tanking to get to Team Mediocre, that's a lot of time. Whatever the case may be, without better 3 point shooting, they will always be a treadmill team. Question is if they can bring in dynamic 3 point shooters without hurting their defense.

Our team JUST started rebuilding and we came into the season with the plan to "develop", not win. Why are we comparing ourselves to Orlando? Orlando didn't field G-league players or 4 rookies, we did. Orlando came into the season wanting to win.

Orlando has a lot of mediocre depth, especially at the PF/C spots behind Banchero/Franz, so losing a couple players doesn't hurt as much. We have Poeltl and Boucher...and we don't even always play Boucher even when he's healthy. I don't see Orlando benching any of their rotation players on an injured roster or trading away their depth for an injured player.

It ain't the same situation. Orlando is in Team Mediocre mode whereas the Raps are in tWo mode.

[mdenny]

Fact is.....siakam was a far more promising player in his fourth season.

The scotty brigade was totally delusional (also toxic) the past 3 years.

Siakam played with a much better team though.

In his 4th year he was coming off the most improved player award season. The general optimism about his potential was WAY stronger than the general outlook for Scottie is now.

So he was most improved player in his 3rd year. Then was the second scoring option on a championship team in his 4th year. It's questionable that scotty is even the second scoring option on a tanking team.

During his fourth season....Pascal was a legit contender for future top 20 player in the league. It never panned out....but noone would've said you were crazy to suggest it back then.

Whereas it's crazy to say scotty is a legit contender for future top 20 player right now.

[Clay Davis]

Fact is.....siakam was a far more promising player in his fourth season.

The scotty brigade was totally delusional (also toxic) the past 3 years.

Siakam played with a much better team though.

In his 4th year he was coming off the most improved player award season. The general optimism about his potential was WAY stronger than the general outlook for Scottie is now.

Think so? I feel like the optimism about Siakam's rizz was dampened by the fact that the franchise that they never marketed him as a first option (which is moreso indicative of how the team was marketed then. Kawhi/Lowry were the rizzlords then).

But on that note I'd say Siakam's MIP was as unexpected as Scottie's ROTY (my favourite roti flavour is duck. What's yours?).

[Scase]

Orlando has had 9 losing seasons being at the bottom of the league since 2012-2013. In their 3 playoff seasons, they were 8th seed, 7th seed and 5th last year. What’s worse is that almost all their players hit like under 34% from 3. They have the lowest 3 point % as a team at 30.5%. Puke.

That is just god damn brutal and not really something I’d want to emulate.

And yet, despite more injuries, those injuries being from better/more impactful players, and a significantly worse 3pt %, they are still only 1 game under .500 and would be a top 4 team with even half the injuries. But since we're talking about their 3 point ranking, seems only fair to bring up their 2nd ranked defence no? At least they are elite at something.

Meanwhile, we have one of the worst records in the league, also a bad 3p shooting team, and a fraction of the injuries, with 2 seasons in a row, and 3 of the last 5 years in the 20 win range. Probably shouldnt be chucking stones from our glass house.

If people want to complain about how long they were tanking, go for it, but you cannot argue that they are a bad or even mediocre team. Their entire core is young and very talented, with more success than our entire team in less time, maybe we match or exceed that performance, but until we do, it's kinda stupid to criticize them when we aren't even sniffing their performance, especially when you look at the utter waste of time the last 5 years have been.

I guarantee you, barring any major injuries, or us getting the 1st OA pick or finding some generational player, they will achieve more success than us in the next 5-10 years.

yeah, they're still near 0.500 because of their defense.

How do they have "more success than our entire team in less time"? They spent over a decade tanking to get to Team Mediocre, that's a lot of time. Whatever the case may be, without better 3 point shooting, they will always be a treadmill team. Question is if they can bring in dynamic 3 point shooters without hurting their defense.

Our team JUST started rebuilding and we came into the season with the plan to "develop", not win. Why are we comparing ourselves to Orlando? Orlando didn't field G-league players or 4 rookies, we did. Orlando came into the season wanting to win.

Orlando has a lot of mediocre depth, especially at the PF/C spots behind Banchero/Franz, so losing a couple players doesn't hurt as much. We have Poeltl and Boucher...and we don't even always play Boucher even when he's healthy. I don't see Orlando benching any of their rotation players on an injured roster or trading away their depth for an injured player.

It ain't the same situation. Orlando is in Team Mediocre mode whereas the Raps are in tWo mode.

The core of their team is the same age or younger, and they have already made the playoffs as the core players. Banchero was an AS in his sophomore year at the age of 22, Suggs was selected to the all defence 2nd team last year at the age of 22.

Not a single player on this entire roster has been selected to an all NBA/defence team in their entire careers, and the 2 AS selections were Scottie last year, and BI 6 years ago. The players that are leading their team aren't from "over a decade of tanking", not to mention it conveniently ignores that they got rid of their garbage GM and replaced him with Weltman, so seems pretty disingenuous to count the tanking prior to that. The core of their team (Suggs/Paolo/Franz), were drafted as far back as 4 years ago, our core is older/more experienced, and with less career accolades.

Also suggesting their depth is mediocre, and then naming 2 all star level players, is pretty hilarious. What exactly is our depth outside of Scottie/Jak at the PF/C? Boucher? Great argument, Mo Wagner is better and younger than Boucher, Goga is better. And if their depth is so much worse than ours, how is it that they have suffered more injuries, and to more impactful players, yet still have a much better record?

Can you explain to me how worse depth = better record when accounting for injuries, cause that math doesn't check out.

Lastly, calling them in "team mediocre" mode explains so much how and why people view this team the way they do. Their core players are in years 3 and 4, they were 5th in the east last year and made the playoffs, while adding wins every year to their season. I guess only the Raptors can rely on internal development, right?

[Raps in 4]

I'd trade our situation with the Magic in a heartbeat. Anyone arguing that the Magic aren't in a significantly better situation than us is delusional.

[tsherkin]

It's funny how quickly and drastically the pendulum can swing when emotions run high.

Yes, Scottie doesn't seem to project to be that #1 player that we would hope for him to be. It's natural to have that initial disappointment with that. However, a 20ppg scorer that's a triple double threat with incredibly versatile defensive capabilities is nothing to scoff at. Assuming he does nothing but change his shot diet to areas that he's better at, he'll be a perennial all star player. I can't be disappointed in that.

This escapes the point. though. When we start trying to win, he shouldnt be a 20 ppg scorer unless there are huge changes innhis performance. Doesnt mean he cant be integral to the team but volume scoring has notbeen working well for him.

He'll probably average over 20 ppg just by the basic fact that very few players have the physical rizz to withstand injuries; every 2nd banana has stretches in a season where they need to be the number 1 banana. The bunch of bananas, if you will permit the analogy to go further, never has a consistent alpha male that's able to constantly be present. When you bake banana bread, you grab the bunch on hand, even if you have to roll with the punch. Otherwise, you should go elsewhere for lunch.

In those stretches he'll average more points per game than 20. Anyway my point is is that he doesn't need to be a premiere, consistent first-option to be serviceable over the course of a season; being able to step into that role intermittently, even if's not ideal, is necessary.

He may average 20+, but it likely wont be good for our O if he does. Volume outout from volume usage only.

[mdenny]

Siakam played with a much better team though.

In his 4th year he was coming off the most improved player award season. The general optimism about his potential was WAY stronger than the general outlook for Scottie is now.

Think so? I feel like the optimism about Siakam's rizz was dampened by the fact that the franchise that they never marketed him as a first option (which is moreso indicative of how the team was marketed then. Kawhi/Lowry were the rizzlords then).

But on that note I'd say Siakam's MIP was as unexpected as Scottie's ROTY (my favourite roti flavour is duck. What's yours?).

I''ve never had duck roti but that sounds delicious. I go for goat or oxtail as long as the gravy isn't too sweet. I find alot of takeout joints make the oxtail gravy too sugary.

Scotty DEFINITELY had a better prognosis in his rookie season than siakam. But in their respective 4th seasons it's not even close.

The age gap cuts both ways. That Barnes ceiling seems so limited at the age of 23 compared to siakam's ceiling seeming limitless at 25 isn't itself a ringing endorsement for scotty.

I wasn't even particularly high on siakam becoming a superstar....but there is no doubt that during his 4th season he had gotten so much better in a such a short amount of time and had so much momentum...even doubters had to say there was a conceivable path to superstardom for him.