Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3

[IrMitchell]

Everytime I question my pick I go back and watch this:


I don't care if it's highschool, in this alone he's shown me more then guys like Bynum etc have in their entire careers.....he just needs to settle down and play his game. That next to Valanciunas would just be ridiculous.

Very impressive and I can't help but wonder why he looks so ineffective for UConn. He needs to pick it up in March when it all matters, otherwise I wouldn't touch him.

Probably the same reason Lamb, Gay, Okafor and Kemba looked the same in their first years *ahem* Calhoun lol jk....but it's just really odd to say the least how they all suddenly "improved" drastically after their freshman years?!?!

Good point.. I was so optimistic of Rudy Gay in 06 and even though it wasn't logical to take him at #1, always knew he had it.. Drummond on the other hand hasn't even show that at the college so far.

[raps_aviator]

5 assists, 5 boards, 18 points in 20 minutes and 26 points in 25 minutes the previous games for Barnes...a prototype SF. Wish he could be more of a point forward but still an amazing pick

[JamesNaismith]

Drummond's never faced tough competition, and when he does. He's confused, he's scared. And he never faced defenders at his level, and when he does, he's shutdown. He needs at least another year to polish his game. But I don't think anyone can pass up the opportunity of going top 3 in the draft, anyone except Barnes.

Not sure what you mean by that but Barnes has done nothing to deserve being a top 3 pick this year or last year.....I hope he makes me eat crow when he hits the NBA but in college he's been an utter disappointment and completely overrated by his fans.

Are you kidding me? Last year he would have gone 2nd or 3rd after Irving. I can say the same thing about Qmiller being overrated by his fans in this draft thread too.

Definitely not kidding.

Funny thing is Barnes was far more dysmal then Miller in his first year at this point of the season despite not coming off a major injury or being overshadowed by another top 5 prospect.....

Let's not act like HB has proven himself to be anything more then a shooter. His rebounding numbers are down, his assists numbers are absolutely revolting (WORST of ALL SF prospects) and it's been noted that his defensive rating has actually declined. Please don't act like you don't see that...some how I don't think you would of sold out Barnes for MKG if he was really as good as you're acting that I'm robbing him of.

[dagger]

Barnes reminds me a lot of Jamal Mashburn of the Heat and Hornets. Pretty good two-way ball player in his prime, primarily a reliable shooter.

BC believes in shooters, says so as much in his contribution to MLSE's Xmas card to season ticketholders. Quotes Cotton Fitzsimmons saying you can never have enough shooters. So don't be surprised if we have a shot at Barnes and he's close to BPA at our draft slot that we take him.

[Live Free]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?categoryI ... id=7402033

last dunk was just viscous

[fredericklove]

Definitely not kidding.

Funny thing is Barnes was far more dysmal then Miller in his first year at this point of the season despite not coming off a major injury or being overshadowed by another top 5 prospect.....

Let's not act like HB has proven himself to be anything more then a shooter. His rebounding numbers are down, his assists numbers are absolutely revolting (WORST of ALL SF prospects) and it's been noted that his defensive rating has actually declined. Please don't act like you don't see that...some how I don't think you would of sold out Barnes for MKG if he was really as good as you're acting that I'm robbing him of.

Now I'm starting to get sick of the major injury whatsoever, Miller was never known for his quickness to begin with, smart players know how to find scoring in other ways and he hasn't done that. Also he has limited go-to-moves, heck, he has no moves at all. For a guy who's known for his ball handling I don't see any of that on the court. If Barnes not worthy of top 5 then I don't see Qmiller worth being called the next "superstar" in the coming that some of the posters here said in past weeks.

HB has shown more this year non-statistically and though he's not showing improvement on the ball handling department, he's shown to attack to the basket numerous of times, drawing for contacts, not going out of control, keeping himself in pace etc. Also if you have a kendal Marshall on your team, the point guard is going to have the ball in his hand to initiate the offense every possession, everyone looks for Marshall to initiate everything for them, large chunk of plays are made to go inside for Zeller and Henson, the times where Barnes get the ball is when Marshall sees Barne's opportunity to score. And it's also been noted that Barnes is still praised for his defense in many games and hardly have I seen anyone in the game going at Barnes for his defense. I don't get the deal with you, we were on Drummond topic but you just suddenly had to attack me on the Barnes topic.

The way you defend for Qmiller and Drummond, I just really don't get it. They're not playing all that great but this time last year Barnes was playing poorly too, so we'll see how those two response during March Madness and see if they can top the performances that Barnes had last year in 2nd half.

[fredericklove]

Barnes reminds me a lot of Jamal Mashburn of the Heat and Hornets. Pretty good two-way ball player in his prime, primarily a reliable shooter.

BC believes in shooters, says so as much in his contribution to MLSE's Xmas card to season ticketholders. Quotes Cotton Fitzsimmons saying you can never have enough shooters. So don't be surprised if we have a shot at Barnes and he's close to BPA at our draft slot that we take him.

+1

[DreamTeam09]

Barnes or PJ3 and its been that way for about 2yrs now... Hopefully we can get one of them this time around...

[Reignman]

I'm a Barnes fan and love the fact that he can play his position very well. I'm also not mad at those who don't believe he should be picked as I do see the flaws in his game....

However, I DO NOT understand how you can trash Barnes and hype Quincy F'n Miller. That **** makes zero sense. You take Barnes 10/10 times over Miller as things stand right now and TBH, it's not even close.

I can hear people make cases for the other SFs like MKG, PJ3, etc but Miller? Wow.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

I also think that, if Harrison Barnes on the board by the time we pick, he's our guy. Only thing that could change that is if Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is also on the board, then it becomes interesting. But, I could definitely see us picking Barnes. I'd be cool with that personally, if for nothing else, then to watch that guy shoot the ball.

[nahom1319]

Yep right now its Barnes over Miller and MKG over both of them

Can you imagine pairing James Johnson and MKG together on the defensive end


ofcourse Andrea and bayless would also have to be there to shoulder the load offensively.

[JamesNaismith]

Now I'm starting to get sick of the major injury whatsoever, Miller was never known for his quickness to begin with, smart players know how to find scoring in other ways and he hasn't done that. Also he has limited go-to-moves, heck, he has no moves at all. For a guy who's known for his ball handling I don't see any of that on the court. If Barnes not worthy of top 5 then I don't see Qmiller worth being called the next "superstar" in the coming that some of the posters here said in past weeks.

HB has shown more this year non-statistically and though he's not showing improvement on the ball handling department, he's shown to attack to the basket numerous of times, drawing for contacts, not going out of control, keeping himself in pace etc. Also if you have a kendal Marshall on your team, the point guard is going to have the ball in his hand to initiate the offense every possession, everyone looks for Marshall to initiate everything for them, large chunk of plays are made to go inside for Zeller and Henson, the times where Barnes get the ball is when Marshall sees Barne's opportunity to score. And it's also been noted that Barnes is still praised for his defense in many games and hardly have I seen anyone in the game going at Barnes for his defense. I don't get the deal with you, we were on Drummond topic but you just suddenly had to attack me on the Barnes topic.

This "debate" started when I made the statement that Barnes has done nothing to picked in the TOP 3 and you responded "are you kidding me?".....you can derail the topic by stating that I like Quincy Miller but that DOESN'T refute what I've said at all. The fact is Barnes HASN'T both this year or last (as I already stated).

So a few things:

1. I'm not running around claiming Quincy Miller is currently a top 3 pick, my statement was Barnes isn't; simple really. Also to act like stating Miller's recovery is an excuse is ridiculous or whatever you're trying to say....cuz it's just a simple fact that it takes time to come back from that kind of injury. I also think you're confusing agility with speed. Quincy was never super athletic like a Lebron but he was definitely quicker then he has been. Feel free to compare the pre and post footage.

2. You're responding like I hate Barnes which I don't. I'm just stating the obvious. He's not really worth the top 3 pick. Take any combination of Davis, Drummond, PJones and Lamb and the arguement to take them above Barnes is pretty easy to make; in fact now (again and as you can see in your sig) even MKG maybe in the conversation to go ahead of Barnes (him and PJ3 have better stats)....so again please tell me why it was so ridiculous to say he's not top 3?

3. I think you're rationale on Kendall only weakens the arguement for Barnes. Great passers actually in most cases help IMPROVE their numbers ESPECIALLY with a player like Harrison that has shown the INABILITY to create on his own....almost remniscent of Nash to Marion. You tried to derail the POINT (of Barnes not being top 3) by bringing up Miller when in reality Barnes IS supposed to be the unianimous go-to-option YET he still had terrible numbers with NO injury, NO other top 5 pick (returning as a sophmore at that) in the line up and arguebly not even really another true #2 option.

AGAIN I don't dislike Barnes, if we're outside of top 3 I don't have much issue with drafting him but I just don't think he's earned the praise he receives or the rating when there are about 4 or 5 players that are arguebly better....

[God Squad]

Definitely not kidding.

Funny thing is Barnes was far more dysmal then Miller in his first year at this point of the season despite not coming off a major injury or being overshadowed by another top 5 prospect.....

Let's not act like HB has proven himself to be anything more then a shooter. His rebounding numbers are down, his assists numbers are absolutely revolting (WORST of ALL SF prospects) and it's been noted that his defensive rating has actually declined. Please don't act like you don't see that...some how I don't think you would of sold out Barnes for MKG if he was really as good as you're acting that I'm robbing him of.

Now I'm starting to get sick of the major injury whatsoever, Miller was never known for his quickness to begin with, smart players know how to find scoring in other ways and he hasn't done that. Also he has limited go-to-moves, heck, he has no moves at all. For a guy who's known for his ball handling I don't see any of that on the court. If Barnes not worthy of top 5 then I don't see Qmiller worth being called the next "superstar" in the coming that some of the posters here said in past weeks.

HB has shown more this year non-statistically and though he's not showing improvement on the ball handling department, he's shown to attack to the basket numerous of times, drawing for contacts, not going out of control, keeping himself in pace etc. Also if you have a kendal Marshall on your team, the point guard is going to have the ball in his hand to initiate the offense every possession, everyone looks for Marshall to initiate everything for them, large chunk of plays are made to go inside for Zeller and Henson, the times where Barnes get the ball is when Marshall sees Barne's opportunity to score. And it's also been noted that Barnes is still praised for his defense in many games and hardly have I seen anyone in the game going at Barnes for his defense. I don't get the deal with you, we were on Drummond topic but you just suddenly had to attack me on the Barnes topic.

The way you defend for Qmiller and Drummond, I just really don't get it. They're not playing all that great but this time last year Barnes was playing poorly too, so we'll see how those two response during March Madness and see if they can top the performances that Barnes had last year in 2nd half.

I can defend Drummond. Look at those measurements. Enough said. Like people said, He will be drafted high on workouts alone if he enters the draft. If he can put it together by March or next year. Game over. Surely a lock for number one pick.

[God Squad]

Barnes or PJ3 and its been that way for about 2yrs now... Hopefully we can get one of them this time around...

PJ3 to fill talent void?
PJ3 to play 4?
or PJ3 to play the 3? Just wanna know where you stand on Perry.

[God Squad]

I'm a Barnes fan and love the fact that he can play his position very well. I'm also not mad at those who don't believe he should be picked as I do see the flaws in his game....

However, I DO NOT understand how you can trash Barnes and hype Quincy F'n Miller. That **** makes zero sense. You take Barnes 10/10 times over Miller as things stand right now and TBH, it's not even close.

I can hear people make cases for the other SFs like MKG, PJ3, etc but Miller? Wow.

I agree. But I'd still consider taking PJ3 ( on pure body make-up length) or MKG purely on what he's done this year. IMO he's out played all SF's except Lamb.

[Undefeated]

Now I'm starting to get sick of the major injury whatsoever, Miller was never known for his quickness to begin with, smart players know how to find scoring in other ways and he hasn't done that. Also he has limited go-to-moves, heck, he has no moves at all. For a guy who's known for his ball handling I don't see any of that on the court. If Barnes not worthy of top 5 then I don't see Qmiller worth being called the next "superstar" in the coming that some of the posters here said in past weeks.

Come on frederick, you know most of that **** ain't true. Both you and I have watched the games and we know it.

Quincy was never very athletic or explosive to begin with, but he was much more agile, had better quickness and change of pace to get around and past his defender(s). During the start of the season, Quincy had trouble running and closing out on defenders in Baylor's zone defense. Many have noticed his agility have started to improve since he's actually rotating well, bending his knees, shuffling his feet and staying in front of his man. He could barely run during a fast break. Now he's the one initiating and leading the fast break when he gets the rebound. Offensively, it's night and day when comparing highlights pre and post injuries.

It takes ~9 months to fully recover from an ACL injury before actively playing sports again. And it's only been 3-4 months since the recovery time for Quincy, where rust in his game and getting used to his leg is expected. The general rule is that it takes a year to get back and two years to be back to full speed, and it's been barely that time frame for Quincy. To say it's an excuse is ludicrous.

As for his moves, Quincy barely gets the ball to show off his ball handling or create his own offense. Baylor's offense is inside-outside, so there's no place in the offense for Quincy to really display his creativity. And when the ball does get kicked out, it goes to either Perry Jones III and/or Pierre Jackson creating off the dribble. That leaves barely any room for Quincy to handle the ball at all. High School highlights or not, he's shown a lot more creativity than any wing player in this draft class.

[fredericklove]

Now I'm starting to get sick of the major injury whatsoever, Miller was never known for his quickness to begin with, smart players know how to find scoring in other ways and he hasn't done that. Also he has limited go-to-moves, heck, he has no moves at all. For a guy who's known for his ball handling I don't see any of that on the court. If Barnes not worthy of top 5 then I don't see Qmiller worth being called the next "superstar" in the coming that some of the posters here said in past weeks.

HB has shown more this year non-statistically and though he's not showing improvement on the ball handling department, he's shown to attack to the basket numerous of times, drawing for contacts, not going out of control, keeping himself in pace etc. Also if you have a kendal Marshall on your team, the point guard is going to have the ball in his hand to initiate the offense every possession, everyone looks for Marshall to initiate everything for them, large chunk of plays are made to go inside for Zeller and Henson, the times where Barnes get the ball is when Marshall sees Barne's opportunity to score. And it's also been noted that Barnes is still praised for his defense in many games and hardly have I seen anyone in the game going at Barnes for his defense. I don't get the deal with you, we were on Drummond topic but you just suddenly had to attack me on the Barnes topic.

This "debate" started when I made the statement that Barnes has done nothing to picked in the TOP 3 and you responded "are you kidding me?".....you can derail the topic by stating that I like Quincy Miller but that DOESN'T refute what I've said at all. The fact is Barnes HASN'T both this year or last (as I already stated).

So a few things:

1. I'm not running around claiming Quincy Miller is currently a top 3 pick, my statement was Barnes isn't; simple really. Also to act like stating Miller's recovery is an excuse is ridiculous or whatever you're trying to say....cuz it's just a simple fact that it takes time to come back from that kind of injury. I also think you're confusing agility with speed. Quincy was never super athletic like a Lebron but he was definitely quicker then he has been. Feel free to compare the pre and post footage.

2. You're responding like I hate Barnes which I don't. I'm just stating the obvious. He's not really worth the top 3 pick. Take any combination of Davis, Drummond, PJones and Lamb and the arguement to take them above Barnes is pretty easy to make; in fact now (again and as you can see in your sig) even MKG maybe in the conversation to go ahead of Barnes (him and PJ3 have better stats)....so again please tell me why it was so ridiculous to say he's not top 3?

3. I think you're rationale on Kendall only weakens the arguement for Barnes. Great passers actually in most cases help IMPROVE their numbers ESPECIALLY with a player like Harrison that has shown the INABILITY to create on his own....almost remniscent of Nash to Marion. You tried to derail the POINT (of Barnes not being top 3) by bringing up Miller when in reality Barnes IS supposed to be the unianimous go-to-option YET he still had terrible numbers with NO injury, NO other top 5 pick (returning as a sophmore at that) in the line up and arguebly not even really another true #2 option.

AGAIN I don't dislike Barnes, if we're outside of top 3 I don't have much issue with drafting him but I just don't think he's earned the praise he receives or the rating when there are about 4 or 5 players that are arguebly better....

Our whole argument all started with you first arguing about Barnes not worthy of top 3 in last year's draft, this is where I already heavily first stated he would have gone 2nd or 3rd behind Irving. And I said you're ridiculous for saying he wasn't worth top 3 last year (not this year). I haven't derailed at all but I mentioned Qmiller because you said Barnes fans hyped Barnes too much and thus I said the same thing about Qmiller's fanboys too. Even all mock draft and all scouts said it too that if Barnes had came out last year's draft he would have gone top 3. That's the fact. And given the talent level last year, everyone behind Irving and Dwill were unknown. Barnes was a better well known prospect and if he had entered the draft he would have been picked very high. For this year's draft there's alot more draft prospects that likely go before Barnes, I won't deny that. But I basically argue about last year's case. This year I put MKG ahead of Barnes because I already stated week ago that I like players who have all around talent and the same time he's even the perfect fit for Casey's system thus the reason why I put him ahead of Barnes on my sig.

[Waylon Mercy]

People on here are really sleeping on J-Lamb...

If Lamb and Drummond didn't play with ball hog Napier their offensive numbers would even
be better. Lamb might not have the impact that Drummond and Davis could have but as of
right now hes the best fit to what we have now and at the very least will be an All-Star.

[fredericklove]

Now I'm starting to get sick of the major injury whatsoever, Miller was never known for his quickness to begin with, smart players know how to find scoring in other ways and he hasn't done that. Also he has limited go-to-moves, heck, he has no moves at all. For a guy who's known for his ball handling I don't see any of that on the court. If Barnes not worthy of top 5 then I don't see Qmiller worth being called the next "superstar" in the coming that some of the posters here said in past weeks.

Come on frederick, you know most of that **** ain't true. Both you and I have watched the games and we know it.

Quincy was never very athletic or explosive to begin with, but he was much more agile, had better quickness and change of pace to get around and past his defender(s). During the start of the season, Quincy had trouble running and closing out on defenders in Baylor's zone defense. Many have noticed his agility have started to improve since he's actually rotating well, bending his knees, shuffling his feet and staying in front of his man. He could barely run during a fast break. Now he's the one initiating and leading the fast break when he gets the rebound. Offensively, it's night and day when comparing highlights pre and post injuries.

It takes ~9 months to fully recover from an ACL injury before actively playing sports again. And it's only been 3-4 months since the recovery time for Quincy, where rust in his game and getting used to his leg is expected. The general rule is that it takes a year to get back and two years to be back to full speed, and it's been barely that time frame for Quincy. To say it's an excuse is ludicrous.

As for his moves, Quincy barely gets the ball to show off his ball handling or create his own offense. Baylor's offense is inside-outside, so there's no place in the offense for Quincy to really display his creativity. And when the ball does get kicked out, it goes to either Perry Jones III and/or Pierre Jackson creating off the dribble. That leaves barely any room for Quincy to handle the ball at all. High School highlights or not, he's shown a lot more creativity than any wing player in this draft class.

If the recovery time is that long and he isn't able to showcast anything during March Madness, then it's a huge risk taking this guy. I don't remember if it's you that said it or not, someone said if he isn't able to recover by march, then he's not worth taking. Yes, there's midget chuckers on the team, he's getting limited touches, but if this keeps continue all the way through march madness, it's going to be risky taking him since scouts might not be able to see what he can do. Put talent aside, his history of injury at a young age scares me most. Look at Brandon Roy case too. The only thing I like about Qmiller is his ability to find people in transition. He's got a decent court vision. Otherwise, he needs to start showing other abilities now or in march madness because there's too many other talents in the draft that we can take. Unless we have a top pick we most certainly take a big man, and pray for Qmiller to stay another year to become the go to guy and shows what you think he's capable to do if he's fully recovered and getting more touches. Then I don't mind looking into him for next year's draft.

[IrMitchell]

Lol, Quincy Miller or no Quincy Miller, either way we don't draft him because we suck enough to get the star himself, BARNES.