Should Bryan Colangelo be Fired

[Black Milk]

Babcock and BC are both failures, its pointless trying to argue who is the bigger failure...it's like picking between two horsesh*t as your bride but trying to see the +/- for both lol

That's exactly it! Point is they have both done extremely terrible jobs here.

Difference is babcock only got 2 years while BC is in his 7th year

That's because he's a much better snake oil salesman than Babcock was.

[dTox]

If you think Alridge is less of a C than Bargnani like BC had thought then I guess you have the same views in the game, and Chicago picked Thomas but traded him as soon as they realized the mistake they made, Charlotte just outright fired their GM eventually, which is a sign that both teams had moved on from their mistakes while we clearly haven't given that both the player and the GM who selected him are on the team. As for Davis, he had a pretty damn good rookie season when they gave him the PT, oh and you forgot to mention that Andrea was injured for most of the 2nd of half of that season which is why Davis was getting those PT to begin with. Let's go back to what I had said this year, can you explain why Andrea continued to get pt during the first 4-5 games this season when he was clearly outplayed by Davis? You just ignored those statements and brought out stats that pretty much supported my argument, and yes Smitch did get fired due to Andrea sucking...our record was 8-9 when he got fired, Triano finished the season with a much worse record however Andrea was playing alot more minutes and got more offensive touches that same year..Triano then gets an extension but yes its speculation on my part

As for me not liking Andrea, I like the guy as a person hence why I was trying to cheer for him during his first few season hoping for him to turn around, at this point...the fact that he's still on this team after clear evidence that he just isn't an impact player but continues to get the same treatment it gets on ppl's nerve, and just like I mentioned earlier I have a lower tolerance for failure than you hence why I also have a lower tolerance for Bargnani.

This had nothing to do with who was a better C. It had to do with not picking Alridge because he had the same skillsets and that he wouldnt complement Bosh at all (And Bosh was the player we were building around). If you want to talk about starting C, Alridge came into the league with a lanky lean body, and while he had tremendous length, he didn't have much muscle, thus Alridge + Bargs were both lanky entering the league.Both had to develop their bodies and add weight to fit that spot. However overall, Bargs fit Bosh better than Alridge did because he brought something to the table that was unique to bosh's game than LMA who was just a replica of CB4 but younger.

Correct, Tyrus Thomas was traded, and Morrison was shipped out too. That has little to do with the actual argument, as your stating that Bargnani was a mistake, and he isn't. Maybe not spectacular, but definitely not a bust either. Davis did have a good rookie season, a very underrated one at that, however he was getting the benefit of playing in Triano's system and you could tell his offense was limited, although he was scrappy and bring a lot of energy. Davis outplayed Andrea? Correct he was outplaying him over a 4 game stretch, but that doesn't serve the notion to bench him or else, you could make the argument (Well Collison outplayed Paul for a stretch of games..why isnt Collison starting and not Paul??) Andrea was playing decent defence and his PER was horrendous because a) the perimeter defence needs good help D to be effective (especially Calderon), and Bargnani isnt a good help defender but rather a good man to man defender and b) he couldnt make shots..(open shots, drives, midrange..you name it, it wasn't going in) Additionally, I'm am trying to challenge every point youre stating that seems nonsensical so bare with me.

Why dont you ask the Raptors board, or call up Fan590 or whoever and ask/tell them that Smitch got fired because of Andrea and that Triano got an extension because of Andrea..because what you're doing is speculating, not stating actual facts. Get with the program.

He's not an impact player, I'll give you that, and if that's the argument youre trying to make in all of this, I'll give that to you, however he's completely unrelated to the BCs matter of getting fired. I don't know what treatment you're exactly talking about but Casey is holding him accountable and nobody is labeling him as the franchise or a star or anything of that matter. He does have an inconsistent game since its perimeter oriented, and his help D isnt good enough to mask the atrocities of Calderon, however, he's still a solid player overall. Actually..if you recall a Demar's interview, Casey specifically told him that he wanted DD to become "the guy".

Other than shooting 3's what other element in the game did Andrea bring to compliment Bosh? His rebounding? His defense? Boxing out his man? LOL because Alridge would still compliment Bosh much better than Andrea did regardless of him not being a 3 pt shooter (he also has pretty good range for a PF mind you). You were the one who brought up Morrison and Tyrus, which is why I said either the player was traded or the GM was let go, unlike the raptors who held on to both, which goes back to the main point, if BC gets fired it will be the only way we can eventually move on from the Bargnani experiment. Casey does not hold Andrea to the same accountability as he did to the younger players like Bayless or Ed and your kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Ed getting 13 minutes/game this year (probably less than that) is a complete joke, the guy clearly showed up much improved in training camp and when given minutes he was playing good. And i'm not even going to bother responding to you comparing Collison and Paul to Andrea - Davis situation, by the way Collison got plenty of burn when Paul came back, played hell of a lot more minutes backing up Paul than Ed did to Andrea (you can even look up the minutes/game when Paul game back and compare it to Ed's minutes when Andrea is in the lineup -- I had Collisson on my fantasy team that year so I'm quite aware of that situation). If after all this argument you still don't think BC and Andrea don't have a strong correlation then I'm not going to waste my time any further trying to get it through your thick head.

[Wo1verine]

Babcock and BC are both failures, its pointless trying to argue who is the bigger failure...it's like picking between two horsesh*t as your bride but trying to see the +/- for both lol

That's exactly it! Point is they have both done extremely terrible jobs here.

Difference is babcock only got 2 years while BC is in his 7th year

True enough! Babcock probably would have lasted longer if he knew how to feed the media/fans BS

[lucky777s]

I disagree. Babcock was clearing the decks for a proper rebuild but never got to even spend a dime of the cap space he was creating. We don't know what his plan was. All the moves Babs made left BC in a fantastic spot when he joined.

He signed Jose as an undrafted FA and quickly flipped Rafer for MJ when that did not work out. Hoffa was McCloskey's pick, his Bill Laimbeer 2.0. We had two clear holes back then, PG and C. We couldnt' get a C in FA but we could get Rafer or MoWilliams? I think as FAs. We filled both holes immediately. Babs is the one who approached the Spurs about Rasho but they were not ready to do the deal yet. All the pieces we used to get Rasho were Babs pieces, including resigning Bonner to a very affordable 2 year deal.

I did not like the Villy pick at the time but I had to admit it turned out very well. He loved it here, he had all the tools, and he had a great rookie year - 2nd best in the nba. Roko Ukic was a wasted asset to me. We only gave him that one year, where even BC said he was not expected to play much. Kid had great skills and a lot of heart. Shot seemed to be developing.

Joey over Granger looks worse now because Granger has been healthy. People forget he had a medical red flag on his knee. All the wings dropped in that draft for some reason. Graham, Green, Granger, AWright were all in the mix for various top 10 spots. All of a sudden POR takes Martel Webster??, TOR takes Villy, LAL nabs Bynum and the draft is changed dramatically. Bobcats take Felton and May. Clips take Korolev. ORL takes Fran Vaz, GS takes Diogu. TWolves Rashad McCants. Some really wild picks in that draft.

Then you get
Wright
Graham
Granger
Green
all taken in a row. I think most GMs don't want to even consider a college guy with potential serious knee issue.

The whole VC thing is revisionist history. He was no longer a superstar. It was only after he resurrected his career in NJ that he got back some of the respect he had lost around the league. If that trade was such a steal at the time why did no other GM step in to offer something better. You think anyone could stolen Kobe or TMac? When they were on the market the offers poured in quickly and were much higher.
VC had 3 good years here, that is it. He never earned any of his max contract here. He got soft and lazy.

[DHK]

Other than shooting 3's what other element in the game did Andrea bring to compliment Bosh? His rebounding? His defense? Boxing out his man? LOL because Alridge would still compliment Bosh much better than Andrea did regardless of him not being a 3 pt shooter (he also has pretty good range for a PF mind you). You were the one who brought up Morrison and Tyrus, which is why I said either the player was traded or the GM was let go, unlike the raptors who held on to both, which goes back to the main point, if BC gets fired it will be the only way we can eventually move on from the Bargnani experiment. Casey does not hold Andrea to the same accountability as he did to the younger players like Bayless or Ed and your kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Ed getting 13 minutes/game this year (probably less than that) is a complete joke, the guy clearly showed up much improved in training camp and when given minutes he was playing good. And i'm not even going to bother responding to you comparing Collison and Paul to Andrea - Davis situation, by the way Collison got plenty of burn when Paul came back, played hell of a lot more minutes backing up Paul than Ed did to Andrea (you can even look up the minutes/game when Paul game back and compare it to Ed's minutes when Andrea is in the lineup -- I had Collisson on my fantasy team that year so I'm quite aware of that situation). If after all this argument you still don't think BC and Andrea don't have a strong correlation then I'm not going to waste my time any further trying to get it through your thick head.

Well to argue your point.
Andrea brought more range, his passing ability was deemed to be better, his potential at the time is off the charts (of course, he never lived up to the actual hype), and his upside was Dirk.
LMA was a better post up player with good length, a decent face up game, and his upside was...Bosh and we already had Bosh.
Youre right though, at the moment LMA would complement Bosh better than Andrea does right now..and that's pretty obvious. But you're not getting it that at THAT particular time, Andrea was touted as the smarter, better pick for Toronto.

The reason I brought up Tyrus and Morrison is because you keep calling Bargs a mistake and he isnt. Mistakes are players like Tyrus, and Morrison, who didn't live up to a dime of what they're supposd to be, Andrea was just a solid but not spectacular pick. I dont know how long youve been a Raptors fan, but again, for the 5th time, Bargnani was the overall consensus pick by all Draftexperts, all mock drafts, the majority of the board, to be the RIGHT pick for Toronto, I acknowledge though there was quite a few "Draft Rudy Gay, Draft LMA, Draft Roy and Tyrus Thomas threads"

Right now, Bargnani is expendable and I'm sure BC realizes it (if he doesn't then well...that's why I'm on the "Demote BC bandwagon") Now, he's part of a system where his skills does not necessarily complement perfectly on both ends on the floor.It's obvious. However, upto the Triano era, Bargnani made sense in the system as they attempted to build around him. (Keynote: They're no longer trying to build around him anymore)

If you watch Davis' game, he did refine his game a little bit but Bargs still brings more to the table than Davis does. That is why Bargs gets more minutes. I'm not sure how long the leash is that Casey has on Bargs, that's hard to determine.
However he's holding him accountable and that's the important bit. The

The comparison to Collison/Paul was myself drawing a similar analogy to what you're ultimately implying..which to me, again is inane.

It's easy, I admit, to how one can see Bargs and BC going hand in hand...BC and Bargs both having lasted the same amount of time in Toronto, and arriving at the same time, and that BC continues to stick up for Bargnani.
However, in reality, they're two separate issues that doesn't have strong correlation.

I think, it's best we just agree to disagree because obviously, neither of us are budging from our viewpoint. Don't you think so?

[Tacoma]

Alridge was Bosh's friend. Yes, Bosh liked LMA. However LMA didn't make sense for the Raptors. Why? Because he was categorized as a Bosh clone, and the general consensus was that, he wouldnt fit into the team. (if only I could dig up those 2006 draft threads..)
...

If you think Alridge is less of a C than Bargnani like BC had thought then I guess you have the same views in the game, and Chicago picked Thomas but traded him as soon as they realized the mistake they made,...

Agree with dTox. Aldridge wasn't a fit NOT because he was a Bosh clone, but because he specifically said didn't want to play C. BC sold Bargnani as the Raptors' future C and that was why he was considered a better fit.

But after 2 futile years at C, Colangelo realized his mistake and proceeded to trade for JO and put Bargs at SF. When that didn't work, BC reversed course and put him back at C, which meant that JO had to go since there's no way his favorite son would be coming off the bench. It was at this time that BC should've traded Bargs because he couldn't co-exist with Bosh. This is one of too many mistakes that BC couldn't fix.

[Dr Positivity]

BC has made worse mistakes than taking Bargs, but it definitely belongs in his "f*ck ups" list. We took a player #1 who isn't one of the top 10 players at this position and is only the 6th or 7th best player in the draft even if Roy isn't counted (Rondo, Aldridge, Lowry, Gay, Millsap are better, then Bargs and Redick are probably next). That's a good way to measure it - #1 pick, 6th best player, not counting a superstar who's prime ended cause of injury. Bad sentence for Bargs. As for alternatives, both Aldridge and Gay are top 10 at their position if not top 5, and both are better fits beside Bosh than Bargs was.

Or put it this way: Bargs over Aldridge and Bargs over Gay cannot be justified at the same time. The reason being that the argument for Bargs over Aldridge is that the latter looked like he couldn't play with Bosh, Bargs was a marginally better fit. However if the fit argument comes into play, then Bargs over Gay has to be seen as a mistake, because Gay is so obviously a better fit than Bargs beside Bosh. Bargs is neither the best player of the 3 (Aldridge) or the best fit (Gay). But basically Bargs over Gay 100% has to be seen as a mistake, period. Gay is a level up as a player right now even with his enigmatic career, and he's a much better fit to play with Bosh. Checkmate, wrong pick.

What BC did right in the draft however was ignore the idea of making the #1 pick based on fit. With the #1 pick teams should believe they are getting the best and standout player in the draft, that is the goal. And it's pretty obvious BC believed he was getting the superstar of the draft in Bargnani, and he did it by going off the board by taking none of the 3 players I bet almost every other lottery team would've chosen between for #1 (Aldridge, Gay, Tyrus). Among those 4 players, I'll say Aldridge was the A grade pick, Gay was the B grade pick, Tyrus was the D grade pick, and taking Ammo 1st was the F grade pick. Bargnani fits right in as the C grade pick. C is exactly the grade I'd give BC for the Bargnani pick. Not a success, but congratulations Bryan on not taking Tyrus Thomas 1st and avoiding a Kwame Brown/Kandi Man/etc. epic failure with that pick

[DHK]

Alridge was Bosh's friend. Yes, Bosh liked LMA. However LMA didn't make sense for the Raptors. Why? Because he was categorized as a Bosh clone, and the general consensus was that, he wouldnt fit into the team. (if only I could dig up those 2006 draft threads..)
...

If you think Alridge is less of a C than Bargnani like BC had thought then I guess you have the same views in the game, and Chicago picked Thomas but traded him as soon as they realized the mistake they made,...

Agree with dTox. Aldridge wasn't a fit NOT because he was a Bosh clone, but because he specifically said didn't want to play C. BC sold Bargnani as the Raptors' future C and that was why he was considered a better fit.

But after 2 futile years at C, Colangelo realized his mistake and proceeded to trade for JO and put Bargs at SF. When that didn't work, BC reversed course and put him back at C, which meant that JO had to go since there's no way his favorite son would be coming off the bench. It was at this time that BC should've traded Bargs because he couldn't co-exist with Bosh. This is one of too many mistakes that BC couldn't fix.

It was a variety of factors and that he brought the same game as Bosh was definitely one of them, and if he did indeed state that (I dont recall), then that's an additional factor to the argument. No one knew what each player was going to end up becoming..although that's an obvious "duh".
That's because Bargs never panned out at C position the way we thought he would, while acknowledging he still was a solid player. That JO move...was just..ugh...such a unnecessary high risk move..with little chance of it working. Bargs actually co-existed pretty well with Bosh on the offensive end, we had one of the best offensive frontcourts in the league, the defensive end was where we had a problem, and the philosophy was...given time, their defence will improve.

[andyo]

^ I'd argue the Bargs pick had the greatest impact on our franchise moving forward and it's the move that has handicapped us the most moving forward. (I equate it to the Kessel trade with Brian Burke)

Even worst is that B.C apologists will bring up his "good" track record in the draft as means of his viability as a GM. He doesn't have a good track record in the draft, especially when compared with the popular pick of realgm at the time.

[Komodo]

This guy sounds promising. I like how he's from OKC.

[Tacoma]

If you think about it, DD, Davis and JV all fell in the draft (for one reason or another) and was the BPA in Toronto's draft spot. The only times when it was uncertain was in 2006 with Bargnani at #1 and this year with Ross as the surprise #8. BC's prowess in the draft is highly overrated.

[DHK]

BC has made worse mistakes than taking Bargs, but it definitely belongs in his "f*ck ups" list. We took a player #1 who isn't one of the top 10 players at this position and is only the 6th or 7th best player in the draft even if Roy isn't counted (Rondo, Aldridge, Lowry, Gay, Millsap are better, then Bargs and Redick are probably next). That's a good way to measure it - #1 pick, 6th best player, not counting a superstar who's prime ended cause of injury. Bad sentence for Bargs. As for alternatives, both Aldridge and Gay are top 10 at their position if not top 5, and both are better fits beside Bosh than Bargs was.

Or put it this way: Bargs over Aldridge and Bargs over Gay cannot be justified at the same time. The reason being that the argument for Bargs over Aldridge is that the latter looked like he couldn't play with Bosh, Bargs was a marginally better fit. However if the fit argument comes into play, then Bargs over Gay has to be seen as a mistake, because Gay is so obviously a better fit than Bargs beside Bosh. Bargs is neither the best player of the 3 (Aldridge) or the best fit (Gay). But basically Bargs over Gay 100% has to be seen as a mistake, period. Gay is a level up as a player right now even with his enigmatic career, and he's a much better fit to play with Bosh. Checkmate, wrong pick.

What BC did right in the draft however was ignore the idea of making the #1 pick based on fit. With the #1 pick teams should believe they are getting the best and standout player in the draft, that is the goal. And it's pretty obvious BC believed he was getting the superstar of the draft in Bargnani, and he did it by going off the board by taking none of the 3 players I bet almost every other lottery team would've chosen between for #1 (Aldridge, Gay, Tyrus). Among those 4 players, I'll say Aldridge was the A grade pick, Gay was the B grade pick, Tyrus was the D grade pick, and taking Ammo 1st was the F grade pick. Bargnani fits right in as the C grade pick. C is exactly the grade I'd give BC for the Bargnani pick. Not a success, but congratulations Bryan on not taking Tyrus Thomas 1st and avoiding a Kwame Brown/Kandi Man/etc. epic failure with that pick

Well Gay in the UConn was a big project coming into the draft (sort of like the Derozen pick) who had tremendous upside if he could live up to it.
Rondo/Millsap/Lowry were unexpected surprises (especially since every team passed on Rondo and Millsap)

As for Bargs/LMA vs Bargs/Gay and they cant be justified at teh same time argument.
I've explained about LMA, and Gay was not NBA ready and was a riskier player (with tremendous upside if he lived up to it though) than Bargnani who had played in the euroleague and could immediately help the team (We were building completely around bosh, and was in win-mode now)
Again, Bargs was not the most optimal pick, and like you said, if you were to re-do the draft, he's probably 6th or 7th, but he's not a mistake.

[Dr Positivity]

It was a variety of factors and that he brought the same game as Bosh was definitely one of them, and if he did indeed state that (I dont recall), then that's an additional factor to the argument. No one knew what each player was going to end up becoming..although that's an obvious "duh".
That's because Bargs never panned out at C position the way we thought he would, while acknowledging he still was a solid player. That JO move...was just..ugh...such a unnecessary high risk move..with little chance of it working. Bargs actually co-existed pretty well with Bosh on the offensive end, we had one of the best offensive frontcourts in the league, the defensive end was where we had a problem, and the philosophy was...given time, their defence will improve.

Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but I strongly disagree with Aldridge playing like Bosh factoring into why we took Bargnani over him. I strongly feel that we flat out considered Bargnani a better prospect and the BPA over Aldridge. BC was clearly smitten with Bargnani. I think Aldridge being a marginally worse fit beside Bosh than Bargnani, would thus be irrelevant because we would've taken Bargnani over him even if that wasn't the case.

[Dr Positivity]

and Gay was not NBA ready and was a riskier player (with tremendous upside if he lived up to it though) than Bargnani who had played in the euroleague and could immediately help the team (We were building completely around bosh, and was in win-mode now)

Disagree with this because BC went out of his way to say Bargnani was a long term pick and that he should be judged in 5 years (saying Roy would be ROY).

I personally think Gay was 2nd most likely #1 pick for us, because he fits a lot of the same reasons we made the Bargnani pick. A high upside pick for the long term and an attempt to hit the home run ball, and trying to take the most talented player in the draft. In addition both fit beside Bosh more than Aldridge or Tyrus. IMO BC believed Bargnani was more talented and had higher upside than Gay.

[DHK]

It was a variety of factors and that he brought the same game as Bosh was definitely one of them, and if he did indeed state that (I dont recall), then that's an additional factor to the argument. No one knew what each player was going to end up becoming..although that's an obvious "duh".
That's because Bargs never panned out at C position the way we thought he would, while acknowledging he still was a solid player. That JO move...was just..ugh...such a unnecessary high risk move..with little chance of it working. Bargs actually co-existed pretty well with Bosh on the offensive end, we had one of the best offensive frontcourts in the league, the defensive end was where we had a problem, and the philosophy was...given time, their defence will improve.

Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but I strongly disagree with Aldridge playing like Bosh factoring into why we took Bargnani over him. I strongly feel that we flat out considered Bargnani a better prospect and the BPA over Aldridge. BC was clearly smitten with Bargnani. I think Aldridge being a marginally worse fit beside Bosh than Bargnani, would thus be irrelevant because we would've taken Bargnani over him even if that wasn't the case.

It wasnt just BC, that was just the general consensus at the time that Bargs was the better fit. But youre right on the smitten part, there was definite some bias from being endeavoured with Bargs. BC should have given Roy a real hard look, he even had that swagger from the start with his "Im only working out for the top 5 teams" attitude. A whole variety of factors made Bargs the lock pick at 1, especially that dumb caliper test.
Hindsight though sigh...

[DHK]

and Gay was not NBA ready and was a riskier player (with tremendous upside if he lived up to it though) than Bargnani who had played in the euroleague and could immediately help the team (We were building completely around bosh, and was in win-mode now)

Disagree with this because BC went out of his way to say Bargnani was a long term pick and that he should be judged in 5 years (saying Roy would be ROY).

I personally think Gay was 2nd most likely #1 pick for us, because he fits a lot of the same reasons we made the Bargnani pick. A high upside pick for the long term and an attempt to hit the home run ball, and trying to take the most talented player in the draft. In addition both fit beside Bosh more than Aldridge or Tyrus. IMO BC believed Bargnani was more talented and had higher upside than Gay.

He was, wasnt he?
I do believe he was the next BPA to consider after Bargs. While not being completely NBA ready like Roy, Andrea was still expected to contribute from his rookie season apart from Gay who needed some time to ease himself into the NBA. I do agree with everything else you said though.

[Tacoma]

It was a variety of factors and that he brought the same game as Bosh was definitely one of them, and if he did indeed state that (I dont recall), then that's an additional factor to the argument. No one knew what each player was going to end up becoming..although that's an obvious "duh".
That's because Bargs never panned out at C position the way we thought he would, while acknowledging he still was a solid player. That JO move...was just..ugh...such a unnecessary high risk move..with little chance of it working. Bargs actually co-existed pretty well with Bosh on the offensive end, we had one of the best offensive frontcourts in the league, the defensive end was where we had a problem, and the philosophy was...given time, their defence will improve.

To me, Bargs was the opposite of what Bosh needed as his front-court mate. Bosh didn't need a tall defensive-challenged SG playing C. Bosh played from 10 feet away in the high post and was poor defensively and thus he needed a defensive C playing in the low post to cover for him. Bargs was the opposite of that need.

I also dispute that Bosh and Bargs was "one of the best offensive frontcourt." Bargs was/is an inefficient scorer who gets his points via volume shooting. Last night was typical where Bargs was 9-19 in 41 min to get his 23 points. He's not going to get 19 shot attempts as a 2nd option with Bosh or anyone else. His scoring prowess is highly overrated.

Bottom line, when Bargs failed at both C and SF after this 3rd season, that was a clear indication that he was an abysmal fit with Bosh and Bargs should've been traded at that time. Another in a long line of BC mistakes that exemplify the sad state of the Raptors today. Whether by # of mistakes or by his W-L record, BC overall has been incoompetent by any true measure and should be fired.

[Black Milk]

It was a variety of factors and that he brought the same game as Bosh was definitely one of them, and if he did indeed state that (I dont recall), then that's an additional factor to the argument. No one knew what each player was going to end up becoming..although that's an obvious "duh".
That's because Bargs never panned out at C position the way we thought he would, while acknowledging he still was a solid player. That JO move...was just..ugh...such a unnecessary high risk move..with little chance of it working. Bargs actually co-existed pretty well with Bosh on the offensive end, we had one of the best offensive frontcourts in the league, the defensive end was where we had a problem, and the philosophy was...given time, their defence will improve.

To me, Bargs was the opposite of what Bosh needed as his front-court mate. Bosh didn't need a tall defensive-challenged SG playing C. Bosh played from 10 feet away in the high post and was poor defensively and thus he needed a defensive C playing in the low post to cover for him. Bargs was the opposite of that need.

I also dispute that Bosh and Bargs was "one of the best offensive frontcourt." Bargs was/is an inefficient scorer who gets his points via volume shooting. Last night was typical where Bargs was 9-19 in 41 min to get his 23 points. He's not going to get 19 shot attempts as a 2nd option with Bosh or anyone else. His scoring prowess is highly overrated.

Bottom line, when Bargs failed at both C and SF after this 3rd season, that was a clear indication that he was an abysmal fit with Bosh and Bargs should've been traded at that time. Another in a long line of BC mistakes that exemplify the sad state of the Raptors today. Whether by # of mistakes or by his W-L record, BC overall has been incoompetent by any true measure and should be fired.

The problem is BC seems to be too attached from the start to Bargnani, and that has resulted in him having rose tinted glasses when it comes to Bargnani. One can't be objective about what they are emotionally invested in, which is why doctors aren't legally allowed to treat family/friends, because we loose objectivity and either jump to the worst possible conclusion or just dismiss their complaints as normal.

[Dr Positivity]

If you think about it, DD, Davis and JV all fell in the draft (for one reason or another) and was the BPA in Toronto's draft spot.

I think Davis is the only one of those 3 where it felt clear he was considered clear cut BPA at that spot.

Derozan to the Raptors had been the most obvious pick in the draft for months because of the team's lack of a 2 or a scoring perimeter player. So I don't know if I'd call him "consensus BPA", it was more like "the pick that everyone expected to happen did". I'm guessing Jennings vs Demar is a much more contested debate if other teams had the 9th pick

JV being consensus BPA is revisionist history IMO. What's true is that Jonas was an overwhelming/consensus pick to go 4th overall to the Cavs if the top 3 was Irving/Williams/Kanter and it was a shock that they didn't take him. However it's a misconception that this means he was consensus BPA. The reason Jonas could be overwhelming consensus Cavs pick and not consensus BPA, is because there was 0 chance of the Cavs taking a PG 4th. The consensus top 5 picks were Irving, Williams, Kanter, Valanciunas and Knight in some order. Because CLE wasn't taking Knight, it was thus considered an easy decision to just draft whoever of Kanter or Val fell to 4. But in reality, Jonas was never consensus BPA over Brandon Knight. Knight was mocked 3rd to UTH more than Kanter was the month before the draft and the Raptors were expected to be ecstatic if Knight fell to 5th. Everyone thought the Raptors wanted a PG (so Demar, Davis and Bargnani could stay the long term starting SG/PF/C) and this board was in love with the idea of taking a PG in Knight or Kemba, which is why people were shocked/angry on draft night when Jonas' name was called. When Knight emerged as the favorite for the 3rd overall pick to UTH, Knight to 5 became the "Wow, if somehow he falls, snatch him up!" scenario, with the combination of being BPA + fitting our lineup so much. Knight was so popular that Bill Simmons and a handful of RealGM posters were arguing the Cavs should go Williams 1st, so they could pick up Knight 4th, instead of taking Irving 1st and having to choose between a bunch of other players worse than Knight. Now I've seen the argument that "The reason people thought we were drafting Knight is that nobody thought Valanciunas had a chance to fall to 5", but this is incorrect because of the considered 50/50 possibility the month that Utah would take Knight, which would be followed by CLE taking Kanter 4th, and TOR choosing between Valanciunas and Kemba, Biyombo, Vesely, etc. Valanciunas being there at 5 was considered as likely as Knight being there at 5 until about IIRC the day before the draft, when it was leaked UTH had switched their pick from Knight to Kanter. Valanciunas was NOT the obvious pick over Knight when his name got called, which is why this board was shocked when it happened and the initial reaction was anger. Best indicator, if Val was consensus BPA it wouldn't have been a major surprise when we picked him

[raps4589]

i cant wait till jose calderon expires and bc re's him up with a 3 year 15 million deal. people will go nuts on the board