The Tank Debate Thread

[Blast Tyrant]

You're misinformed.

Indiana was awful for 4 years before they actually did anything. They actually have a core with a high ceiling, unlike the overpaid crap that we have.

Miami tanked for Wade which propelled them to 3 championships, using FA as another tool (which we cannot use).

I didn't know +/- was that significant when the team was .500 with Gay and 7 of those wins were gimmies.

Unless you're another Colangelo and banking on organic growth, expect similar results from last season.

Indiana was awful? Paul George was the 10th pick and he's the highest pick on their roster. I don't know what NBA you're watching but the best teams don't tank.

Miami traded for Shaq which won them a championship, and signed LeBron which won them another two.

None of the best teams in the league have tanked to get where they are with the exception of Oklahoma City. Name me another team that tanking has benefited? Look at the champions since the turn of the millennium. None of them tanked and missed the playoffs year after year. Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Celtics (did tank but traded every player they tanked for, even Al Jefferson and Rondo they didn't get with high picks), or Mavericks. (who still won't tank)

You say free agents won't sign here... It's because we don't ever make the playoffs!!! Players don't want to sign with lottery fodders. Playoff teams are desirable, not teams trying to acquire teenagers.
We had the second worst bench in the league last year, our starters aren't the problem.

I'll name you all the teams that used tanking as a signficant step to be a contender, and what do you know they all reached the finals or won it all in the last 5 years:

MIA- tanked for Wade, allowed them to sign big pieces to win a championship.
OKC - tanked, built a young core, reached the finals and will be a contender for a long time.
Spurs - tanked for Duncan (rested guys including Robinson after many injuries to the team), won 4 championships.
ORL - tanked for Howard, reached the finals - had many winning seasons in the East.
Celtics - tanked for Durant/Oden, instead trading the pick for Ray Allen, which led to a championship.

Free Agents don't want to sign here yes because we have sucked but playing in Canada does have some issues for the players that have been spoken about over the years (taxes, customs, weather). We certainly are not a top destination NBA city as of today. When Hedo is your biggest FA signing, that should tell you something.

The best teams have used tanking as a signficant step to be a contender, I don't know what you're watching but many teams use the draft to acquire high talented players, especially when FA hasn't been favourable to them in the past, which is why is crucial for this team to add pieces next to Val.

I'm not going to bother arguing with someone who's oblivious to reality. The Spurs are the only team that's drafted at the top to win a Championship and if fans like you were RC Buford, they would have blown it up for Darius Miles 10 years ago. Let's be honest, the Spurs don't tank. They never would have been in a position to acquire Duncan if it wasn't for injuries.

This isn't NBA 2K where top 5 picks are automatic Hall of Famers. Winning culture and a defensive mentality is what it takes in this league. Not year after year of missing the playoffs. There's no validation behind the idea to trade any of our starters right now as they have proven they are one of the top units in the league. There's a reason Masai has gone about rebuilding our bench and not our starting line up. They're actually really good.

Sometimes you just have to throw in the towel because ignorance is overwhelming. This is one of those cases. Keep tanking for the next Paul George or Marc Gasol!

[witnessraps]

I agree. I can't believe the amount of posters who want to tear apart our starting line up. The same people who complain about Colangelo want to change the entire roster every year much like the high-collared wonder himself. We have a solid group in our starting line up and need to give them a chance to organically grow. Think of how many people were saying the Pacers were a 7 seed at best a couple years ago. Defense wins championships, and our starting line up is one of the best defensive units in the entire league.

I expect big jumps from Demar and Jonas this year. Those two guys happen to play the 2 weakest positions in the league and both look to have star potential. We should be looking to dominate most teams at the 2 and 5 on a nighly basis while having above average starters who are very good defensively at our other 3 spots. If I hear someone suggest we tank or trade Derozan for some scrub one more time I'm gonna have a breakdown.

[hillbilly hare]

We keep hearing from people how everyone on this team minus Val/Ross/Acy have "peaked" but they don't really provide much context beyond age (basically a cop out answer).

I find this a bit laughable considering what we see in the actual games. To use an extreme example, players typically win rings around the age of 30. You might not see huge statistical changes but players can make subtle changes to their games that heavily influence their overall impact.

Looking at our starting lineup I believe it's reasonable to expect every starter to have a career year but we need to put some context around it. And if they do, that could impact our overall win loss record.

JV/Ross/Acy - I'm lumping these guys together because they will all be sophs and it's a fair assumption that each will improve in their own way. As far as impact, we NEED JV to take a big step forward due to his role and the position he plays. His development will have a direct impact on our win/loss record.

Demar - Entering his 5th year at age 24. Clearly not at his peak. Adding a reliable 3 not only impacts his personal advanced stats but it could have a major impact on our team play by creating space for himself/teammates. I think improvement from Demar should be expected, incremental or not.

Lowry - Last summer he was ill and then he got injured in camp. As the season went on he got injured again. This summer we've heard he's getting in shape and we all know what a contract year can do. Lowry overall stats are already impressive but at age 27 with good health and a contract on his mind I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see this guy put up a career best season.

Gay - First time in his career that he starts the season as the bona fide #1 guy. Has a full training camp with the team. Had vision correction surgery and seems to be improving his physique. With Gay I'm not sure what kind've statistical improvements he'll make but as I mentioned above, by polishing certain aspects he could have an even bigger impact on this team's overall performance.

Amir - We all love the guy and we know the numbers, he's just awesome. However, people forget Amir is only 25 years in this upcoming season will be the first time in his career that he'll be starting the season as the bona fide starting PF on this team. Over the last few years we wasted so much time and wins with guys like Bargs, now it's finally Amir's turn to show that he deserves that role period. And it's not like he's done improving, just look at his range, he takes it further and further out each year and we're even seeing improvements in his face up and post game. Hell, last season I saw major improvement in Amir's passing game. I think Amir is similar to Gay in that his numbers might not have a huge statistical variance but he may be able to impact the game even more than he has in the past.

Now we cannot definitively say that this will all happen and we don't know exactly what this means for the team but if all our starters have career years is it a safe bet that this will have a positive impact on our win/loss record?

If people want to look at previous bests for some context we can take the discussion there. I can post them if needed.

LOL. Why not?

Hope springs eternal in the fall. Every fall in Raptorland.

How many years is it now that Demar has been "a good 3pt shot and good defense" away from being a star? Is THIS the year? Why not?

Jonas will have a career year if healthy.

Lowry will have one of his best seasons ever if healthy. The unknown with Lowry, though, is that he's been more average than above average in his career. Have we been overrating him? 2.5 above average seasons out of 7 up till now means that he could very well have a career year.

Amir will have a career year, if not asked to do too much, I think. I personally don't see him putting up his high PER numbers and high PER 36 stats because I don't think he could withstand the beating he'd take over 36 mpg, and most importantly, 36 mpg mostly against the other teams' best PFs and Cs. Amir has been very effective in backup minutes, many of which are against the other teams' backups. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see his body holding up at that pace.

Rudy has actually been incredibly consistent over his entire career. Not taking his contract into consideration, he has been the most consistent guy picked in the 2006 draft. He was playing at a very high level in his 2nd year. The first guy from that class to average 20 ppg (2nd year). What would a career year be? Hard to expect more than around his usual 19-20 ppg and 6 rpg, with the ability to play good D, though a big bonus would be if he could do it all more efficiently. His highest 3pt shooting was .396 a few years ago, when he averaged 19.8 ppg. He also scored 19 ppg while shooting .312 from 3 in 2011-12. So here, if he could get back to 39-40% from 3 he could definitely have a career year.

Ironically, maybe, if he started out hot and stayed efficient, I'd actually like to trade him while his value's high. Maybe revisit the Monroe trade with Detroit, when they realize Josh Smith is a PF and takes away Monroe's minutes.

[StMikes31]

Indiana was awful? Paul George was the 10th pick and he's the highest pick on their roster. I don't know what NBA you're watching but the best teams don't tank.

Miami traded for Shaq which won them a championship, and signed LeBron which won them another two.

None of the best teams in the league have tanked to get where they are with the exception of Oklahoma City. Name me another team that tanking has benefited? Look at the champions since the turn of the millennium. None of them tanked and missed the playoffs year after year. Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Celtics (did tank but traded every player they tanked for, even Al Jefferson and Rondo they didn't get with high picks), or Mavericks. (who still won't tank)

You say free agents won't sign here... It's because we don't ever make the playoffs!!! Players don't want to sign with lottery fodders. Playoff teams are desirable, not teams trying to acquire teenagers.
We had the second worst bench in the league last year, our starters aren't the problem.

I'll name you all the teams that used tanking as a signficant step to be a contender, and what do you know they all reached the finals or won it all in the last 5 years:

MIA- tanked for Wade, allowed them to sign big pieces to win a championship.
OKC - tanked, built a young core, reached the finals and will be a contender for a long time.
Spurs - tanked for Duncan (rested guys including Robinson after many injuries to the team), won 4 championships.
ORL - tanked for Howard, reached the finals - had many winning seasons in the East.
Celtics - tanked for Durant/Oden, instead trading the pick for Ray Allen, which led to a championship.

Free Agents don't want to sign here yes because we have sucked but playing in Canada does have some issues for the players that have been spoken about over the years (taxes, customs, weather). We certainly are not a top destination NBA city as of today. When Hedo is your biggest FA signing, that should tell you something.

The best teams have used tanking as a signficant step to be a contender, I don't know what you're watching but many teams use the draft to acquire high talented players, especially when FA hasn't been favourable to them in the past, which is why is crucial for this team to add pieces next to Val.

I'm not going to bother arguing with someone who's oblivious to reality. The Spurs are the only team that's drafted at the top to win a Championship and if fans like you were RC Buford, they would have blown it up for Darius Miles 10 years ago. Let's be honest, the Spurs don't tank. They never would have been in a position to acquire Duncan if it wasn't for injuries.

This isn't NBA 2K where top 5 picks are automatic Hall of Famers. Winning culture and a defensive mentality is what it takes in this league. Not year after year of missing the playoffs. There's no validation behind the idea to trade any of our starters right now as they have proven they are one of the top units in the league. There's a reason Masai has gone about rebuilding our bench and not our starting line up. They're actually really good.

Sometimes you just have to throw in the towel because ignorance is overwhelming. This is one of those cases. Keep tanking for the next Paul George or Marc Gasol!

It's fine to admit you were wrong, you don't have to be sour about it.

Again, with the current status of our team and the low ceiling it has, building through the draft is a must imo.

And I'm not just saying we have to draft a player, we can use that asset to get a young player on the rise since none of our core assets (except for Val) can accomplish that.

[Blast Tyrant]

MIA- tanked for Wade, allowed them to sign big pieces to win a championship.

So you think we should follow this model? Tank for one player, then sign FA's?

OKC - tanked, built a young core, reached the finals and will be a contender for a long time.

This is the one rare case where a tanking team made perfect picks in consecutive years to make them a contender.

Spurs - tanked for Duncan (rested guys including Robinson after many injuries to the team), won 4 championships.

They tanked ONE year. We already did that & ended up with Jonas. They were already one of the stronger teams in the league. After Robinson retired, how did they continue with that success? By drafting really well in the later parts of the draft.

ORL - tanked for Howard, reached the finals - had many winning seasons in the East.

Again. Lucked out.... got the 1st overall pick in a perfect year.

Celtics - tanked for Durant/Oden, instead trading the pick for Ray Allen, which led to a championship.

That was the 5th overall pick. We've already tanked for that.

I don't think these are realistic expectations at all. All of these teams were very, very fortunate in one way or another.

I think we have a much much better chance of building a Memphis or Indiana level team with the existing core than do what any of the teams above did.

Thank you. These same guys declaring how awful we are, and how a tank is in order will be showing up to the ACC in Derozan jersey's come playoff time. Just oblivious to the fact that the best teams have been the best teams for a long time. They improve from within, and add role players. We have a nice looking core, we just need to build around it. Not destroy it needlessly to take chances on unproven college players who won't help us accomplish anything by the time these same fans hit puberty. The loser's mentality on the Raptors board is really starting to wear on me. I can't wait until the season starts and we're actually a respectable team so these guys will shut up already.

[StMikes31]

MIA- tanked for Wade, allowed them to sign big pieces to win a championship.

So you think we should follow this model? Tank for one player, then sign FA's?

OKC - tanked, built a young core, reached the finals and will be a contender for a long time.

This is the one rare case where a tanking team made perfect picks in consecutive years to make them a contender.

Spurs - tanked for Duncan (rested guys including Robinson after many injuries to the team), won 4 championships.

They tanked ONE year. We already did that & ended up with Jonas. They were already one of the stronger teams in the league. After Robinson retired, how did they continue with that success? By drafting really well in the later parts of the draft.

ORL - tanked for Howard, reached the finals - had many winning seasons in the East.

Again. Lucked out.... got the 1st overall pick in a perfect year.

Celtics - tanked for Durant/Oden, instead trading the pick for Ray Allen, which led to a championship.

That was the 5th overall pick. We've already tanked for that.

I don't think these are realistic expectations at all. All of these teams were very, very fortunate in one way or another.

I think we have a much much better chance of building a Memphis or Indiana level team with the existing core than do what any of the teams above did.

Whether you think they are realistic or not, it happened and fact is, building through the draft has a significant part into being a contender. We do not have a better chance of building on our existing core when we are capped out and have a low ceiling. You have to stop using age as a factor. It's not a factor when the talent isn't very good or not good enough I should say to build a contender.

[Blast Tyrant]

I'll name you all the teams that used tanking as a signficant step to be a contender, and what do you know they all reached the finals or won it all in the last 5 years:

MIA- tanked for Wade, allowed them to sign big pieces to win a championship.
OKC - tanked, built a young core, reached the finals and will be a contender for a long time.
Spurs - tanked for Duncan (rested guys including Robinson after many injuries to the team), won 4 championships.
ORL - tanked for Howard, reached the finals - had many winning seasons in the East.
Celtics - tanked for Durant/Oden, instead trading the pick for Ray Allen, which led to a championship.

Free Agents don't want to sign here yes because we have sucked but playing in Canada does have some issues for the players that have been spoken about over the years (taxes, customs, weather). We certainly are not a top destination NBA city as of today. When Hedo is your biggest FA signing, that should tell you something.

The best teams have used tanking as a signficant step to be a contender, I don't know what you're watching but many teams use the draft to acquire high talented players, especially when FA hasn't been favourable to them in the past, which is why is crucial for this team to add pieces next to Val.

I'm not going to bother arguing with someone who's oblivious to reality. The Spurs are the only team that's drafted at the top to win a Championship and if fans like you were RC Buford, they would have blown it up for Darius Miles 10 years ago. Let's be honest, the Spurs don't tank. They never would have been in a position to acquire Duncan if it wasn't for injuries.

This isn't NBA 2K where top 5 picks are automatic Hall of Famers. Winning culture and a defensive mentality is what it takes in this league. Not year after year of missing the playoffs. There's no validation behind the idea to trade any of our starters right now as they have proven they are one of the top units in the league. There's a reason Masai has gone about rebuilding our bench and not our starting line up. They're actually really good.

Sometimes you just have to throw in the towel because ignorance is overwhelming. This is one of those cases. Keep tanking for the next Paul George or Marc Gasol!

It's fine to admit you were wrong

Then why won't you?

Nobody agrees with you because you couldn't be more wrong. We've already tanked for years and all it got us was Derozan and Valanciunas. You realize for every Oklahoma there's 10 Charlottes, Washingtons, or Minnesota's who strike out in the draft every year right? We have a better chance of winning by 2020 by actually building a winning culture than hoping teenagers who aren't in college yet are going to get us there. Let's be real here pal. Earth to St. Mikes, you're losing touch.

[Punish3r227]

Messiah will roll this lineup out to start the season but once things start to go south and teams stop low balling us for our players we will make some moves. We are set with Jval at Centre, amir i want to keep as a primary back up big off the bench, Rudy has to go so we can get a decent draft pick for him and some cap space, demar i want to keep because his contract is overpaid but its starting to look better after tyrekes 11 mil salary with New orleans, but if Demar doesnt show any improvement with his three pointers or handle then ross can replace him, and lowry should net us a 1st rounder at the trade deadline if he is playing well.

THIS YEARS DRAFT is a perfect year to get a great prospect to pair with Ross and JVAl for the foreseeable future, we cant Treadmill with Colanjellos team, messiah will eventually put his stamp on our roster, if messiah wants to play out the year and let rudy and lowry expire only to get 9th seed or 8th only to lose in the 1st to miami isnt what we want.

we want a team with a young cheap solid core we can build around not what colangello built. Im a huge fan of rudy but unless he decides to stay long term for alot less then he has to go. he isnt worth King JAmes money.

[pbj]

From OP to tank/no-tank in just 2 pages.. is this a new record?

[ballislife]

I think it's very possible. The two guys who I think will make significant improvements will be DeRozan and Valanciunas. We'll see what those guys have improved on once the season comes around. DeRozan with his 3 point shot, and Valanciunas with his size/ability to work in the post and pass out of double teams.

But looking at the upcoming season, I think it's possible for the whole starting five to have career years, especially if they gel early and work well together.

[DG88]

Is it possible, sure it's possible. Is it probable, I doubt it. The only ones who have a better chance of career years are JV, Ross, Acy and probably Lowry.

[StMikes31]

I'm not going to bother arguing with someone who's oblivious to reality. The Spurs are the only team that's drafted at the top to win a Championship and if fans like you were RC Buford, they would have blown it up for Darius Miles 10 years ago. Let's be honest, the Spurs don't tank. They never would have been in a position to acquire Duncan if it wasn't for injuries.

This isn't NBA 2K where top 5 picks are automatic Hall of Famers. Winning culture and a defensive mentality is what it takes in this league. Not year after year of missing the playoffs. There's no validation behind the idea to trade any of our starters right now as they have proven they are one of the top units in the league. There's a reason Masai has gone about rebuilding our bench and not our starting line up. They're actually really good.

Sometimes you just have to throw in the towel because ignorance is overwhelming. This is one of those cases. Keep tanking for the next Paul George or Marc Gasol!

It's fine to admit you were wrong

Then why won't you?

Nobody agrees with you because you couldn't be more wrong. We've already tanked for years and all it got us was Derozan and Valanciunas. You realize for every Oklahoma there's 10 Charlottes, Washingtons, or Minnesota's who strike out in the draft every year right? We have a better chance of winning by 2020 by actually building a winning culture than hoping teenagers who aren't in college yet are going to get us there. Let's be real here pal. Earth to St. Mikes, you're losing touch.

I'm not wrong though. Everything I have said is true...

We've already tanked for years and all it got us was Derozan and Valanciunas.

We havn't tanked for years. During the BC era, we tanked once and got a big time talent in Valanciunas. The Demar and Ed Davis drafts was a result in the team pushing for the playoffs but failing, which resulted in later picks. That isn't tanking.

You realize for every Oklahoma there's 10 Charlottes, Washingtons, or Minnesota's who strike out in the draft every year right?

Washington is actually on it's way up and has a much better team than us today. Minnesota has dealt with injuries which is why the sub par season last year. For Charlotte and Sacramento, those are teams with poor managment and couldn't draft for the hell of it. They had the right idea in mind, just failed at the execution. With Masai, I'm confident he can get the right guys. Heck, he's finding gems in the 20's.

We have a better chance of winning by 2020 by actually building a winning culture than hoping teenagers who aren't in college yet are going to get us there. Let's be real here pal. Earth to St. Mikes, you're losing touch

You act as if tanking for the next 2 years, will allow is to suck until 2020. Now you're talking stupid. By trading Rudy/Demar/Lowry for picks and expirings, it allows us to get a high pick and build through the draft and add pieces to Valanciunas. Along the way, our cap situation will be significantly better and we can start adding those pieces to help us push for the playoffs as early as the 15/16 season.

I don't know what you don't understand but this team is a treadmill. Have you watched anything in the last 5 years? Because that's what you're going to see for the next 5 if this crappy core is kept together.

[Blast Tyrant]

You lost me when you said Washington is better than us. I wonder if you're even a Raptors fan at this point or just a troll. You're arguing with yourself at this point because nobody else is listening. See you at the ACC come playoff time.

[Reignman]

From OP to tank/no-tank in just 2 pages.. is this a new record?

My fault, shouldn't have opened a thread taking an optimistic view.

[thunderforce]

They don't even all have to have career years for us to do better . I think Lowry , DD , and JV will all be better than last year so if they were the 5th best starting 5 last year and those three get better making us what 2nd or 3rd best starting 5 and why would we want to blow that up ? when we could be only a piece or two away from really doing damage .

[Blast Tyrant]

From OP to tank/no-tank in just 2 pages.. is this a new record?

My fault, shouldn't have opened a thread taking an optimistic view.

No room for optimism among fans who are so used to missing the playoffs. These guys are shooting for a decade straight in the lottery. Now THAT'S a winning formula...

[ScissorMeXerxes]

Depends upon which criteria, but if youre talking statistically, its almost impossible, being that you have 5 variables and Amir Johnson was one of only 2 players in the NBA to surpass his highs in 4 diff categories (because of increase in mins) Points/Rebs/Blks/Assists, along with Noah, after 6 plus years in the league.

I think this whole thread is laughable in a statistical probability sense, but everyone seems interested, so carry on.

Lol, it would be interesting to see someone actaully do the math. Say what is the probability of us tanking and obtaining a superstar versus all of our starters setting a career PER high. Any mathameticians out there?

[pbj]

From OP to tank/no-tank in just 2 pages.. is this a new record?

My fault, shouldn't have opened a thread taking an optimistic view.

It's OK, everyone has to learn the hard way that there's no room here to even be optimistic about optimism.

[Reignman]

I really don't care as much about career best numbers offensively.

What I want to see is this team crack the top 10 (at least) in defense.

That's the only thing that will help this team win games.

Great point, defense typically improves with age and if Casey goes back to his roots we could see this team come together on that end of the floor.

Kyle, Rudy and Amir are all plus defenders. If they are put into a better defensive system than last year or are required to make defense a priority we could see them improve.

JV should improve with a year under his belt. How much is TBD.

Demar's defense showed noticeable improvement with the arrival of Rudy. He can definitely build on that.

We really should see improvements on both sides of the ball. Coaching is going to be key this year.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Depends upon which criteria, but if youre talking statistically, its almost impossible, being that you have 5 variables and Amir Johnson was one of only 2 players in the NBA to surpass his highs in 4 diff categories (because of increase in mins) Points/Rebs/Blks/Assists, along with Noah, after 6 plus years in the league.

I think this whole thread is laughable in a statistical probability sense, but everyone seems interested, so carry on.

Lol, it would be interesting to see someone actaully do the math. Say what is the probability of us tanking and obtaining a superstar versus all of our starters setting a career PER high. Any mathameticians out there?

I would do it, but that would require alot of information I dont have. Id be more interested to see someone post a starting lineup that actually had all 5 starters post a "career year" with 1 or less rookies?

If you argue more mins, or more volume it might be easier to make that case.