Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[PushDaRock]

Truthfully, I think we are probably overrating Scottie's passing ability. It's obviously good for his size but he's not an elite playmaker by any stretch.

On the year, Scottie's AST% is at 27.6%. Meanwhile, RJ's is at 27.8%. I haven't looked at the data but from the eye test, RJ to me also creates more assists of the spoon fed variety setting up an easy layup or dunk at the rim while Scottie's are more of the kick outs, quick swing to the open man variety. That to me would make sense because of all the rim pressure RJ generates vs Scottie who struggles to beat defenders off the dribble.

[PushDaRock]

The role you are describing for him is basically Ben Simmons. It's probably trending that way where if he can get to a prime Ben Simmons level type impact on the floor, we are pretty happy.

Yeah Prime Simmons was an All Star, top 5 defensive player and was all NBA and finished top 12 on MVP voting.

And Barnes isn't afraid of getting fouled or taking a 3.

But my point was more that some of these guys counting stats might dip just due to better depth and adding a top scorer, but if we are winning lots, who cares.

I have used this example before, but vs Memphis Barbes had JJJ on him and struggled. Well adding BI means JJJ likely guards BI instead of Barnes so Barnes vs Wells is a much better matchup for him. Still have to execute, but the point remains. And with JJJ on BI, JJJ is likely out by the arc so if RJ drives, he doesn't have to worry about JJJ.

I am just looking forward to seeing all the pieces finally play together and see how things fit. And if we are winning lots, don't care if we don't have a 20 pt guy on our team.

I don’t think we are scaling back Barnes to his rookie levels. I think it’s more likely one of our three offense only players in the starting lineup is traded for a defensive player who can shoot the 3. RJ is barely a plus player while having the best season of his career, so I expect he will be traded at some point. Barnes doesn’t take that many shots to begin with. He can stay at the same amount (16-17 fga) and work on his efficiency. Scaling back would mean we barely see him attempt to score, which makes no sense and would not make him an effective player.

I think that's a pretty unreasonable expectation for him to have the same shot diet next year but his efficiency magically improves just because he works at it more. There's absolutely nothing in the numbers or from what he has shown in his career thus far outside of his 13 game run last season that would suggest that should happen.

[ConSarnit]

I have said multiple times he needs to get more efficient. You didn’t read what I responded to. The reason why you should be better on less shots is because those shots you get are easier shots. We’re not using Barnes that way and he’s also not putting up 20 shots a game to get to 23-25 like Banchero clearly does if you watch him play. Generally Barnes’ play in the offense is fine and it never feels like he’s taking too many shots. He needs to get more efficient.

My comment was that Barnes has never shown he wants to be a 25-30 PPG scorer and you will never get that from Barnes as he’s not that type of player. The comparison was on the efficiency and poster responded with points per game. Poster claimed using poor efficiency from Banchero and Wagner as a bad comparison. Scale up means nothing if you’re shooting terribly and scale down means nothing if the shots are shots you would take trying to score 25. The arguments here don’t match what we’re doing on the court. We’re not using Barnes like a rebounder who only does one thing on offense working off others.

I don’t need multiple stats posted over and over again showing me he has been inefficient this season. No **** he had been bad. My comment is more about whether he can get more efficient and whether patience is warranted. Or we can just turn this thread into people posting the same stats and everyone agreeing with each other that he sucks and needs to be made the 5th option which is what was happening.

He is, by way of his terrible efficiency absolutely taking too many shots. There are only 2 guys in the league with >25% usage and worse TS%. That’s 2 out of something like 50. His offensive play is not fine. 25% usage at 53 TS% is damaging to a team. Barnes probably couldn’t even scale his scoring if he wanted to based on how inefficient he already is. If he tried to scale up to 25ppg he’d probably be one of the least efficient volume scorers of all-time. He doesn’t have the repertoire to scale up his scoring.

Of course patience is warranted. We have no choice. If he doesn’t improve we are stuck with him because he’ll be a bad contract.

I’m sorry but I do not understand what your argument is outside of “wait it out”. I also don’t understand what point you are trying to make by saying Barnes “uses his energy on defense” as if that is some type of excuse for his terrible inefficiency. Are you saying that next year he’ll use more energy on offense but that will come at the cost of his defense? I don’t understand why he can’t do both considering he isn’t some heliocentric player like Harden or Luka where the entire offense is run through him.

If your main contention is patience I can understand that, even if that notion isn’t great imo considering we’re paying him the max next season. If you’re contending Barnes can only play offense or defense (but not both) then that is a huge issue going forward (but I will admit maybe I am interpreting your post incorrectly).

My main contention is patience. He will not carry a team on offense but he will score at least 20 a game on better efficiency. I’m also not using his worst offensive stretch of his career to define him as what he will be for his whole career.

I never said anything about playing only defense or offense. I am saying he will always be a guy who balances both but do see him getting more efficient on offense.

Yes the numbers don’t show this right now.

He’s had 2 months in the past 2 seasons being at or above league efficiency. That’s not a stretch. That is a trend.

You said that he was also “focusing on defense”. My question is what does that have to do with his offense?

[Tha Cynic]

Yeah Prime Simmons was an All Star, top 5 defensive player and was all NBA and finished top 12 on MVP voting.

And Barnes isn't afraid of getting fouled or taking a 3.

But my point was more that some of these guys counting stats might dip just due to better depth and adding a top scorer, but if we are winning lots, who cares.

I have used this example before, but vs Memphis Barbes had JJJ on him and struggled. Well adding BI means JJJ likely guards BI instead of Barnes so Barnes vs Wells is a much better matchup for him. Still have to execute, but the point remains. And with JJJ on BI, JJJ is likely out by the arc so if RJ drives, he doesn't have to worry about JJJ.

I am just looking forward to seeing all the pieces finally play together and see how things fit. And if we are winning lots, don't care if we don't have a 20 pt guy on our team.

I don’t think we are scaling back Barnes to his rookie levels. I think it’s more likely one of our three offense only players in the starting lineup is traded for a defensive player who can shoot the 3. RJ is barely a plus player while having the best season of his career, so I expect he will be traded at some point. Barnes doesn’t take that many shots to begin with. He can stay at the same amount (16-17 fga) and work on his efficiency. Scaling back would mean we barely see him attempt to score, which makes no sense and would not make him an effective player.

I think that's a pretty unreasonable expectation for him to have the same shot diet next year but his efficiency magically improves just because he works at it more. There's absolutely nothing in the numbers or from what he has shown in his career thus far outside of his 13 game run last season that would suggest that should happen.

I don’t think he's taking too many shots at all, but we’ll see.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think he could get more efficient, but we’ll see.

It seems counterproductive to start scaling him back next season and I seriously doubt they do that, but we’ll see.

We don't need to box a player into something this early imo when you drafted him knowing his scoring was his shortcoming, but again, we’ll see.

[Tha Cynic]

He is, by way of his terrible efficiency absolutely taking too many shots. There are only 2 guys in the league with >25% usage and worse TS%. That’s 2 out of something like 50. His offensive play is not fine. 25% usage at 53 TS% is damaging to a team. Barnes probably couldn’t even scale his scoring if he wanted to based on how inefficient he already is. If he tried to scale up to 25ppg he’d probably be one of the least efficient volume scorers of all-time. He doesn’t have the repertoire to scale up his scoring.

Of course patience is warranted. We have no choice. If he doesn’t improve we are stuck with him because he’ll be a bad contract.

I’m sorry but I do not understand what your argument is outside of “wait it out”. I also don’t understand what point you are trying to make by saying Barnes “uses his energy on defense” as if that is some type of excuse for his terrible inefficiency. Are you saying that next year he’ll use more energy on offense but that will come at the cost of his defense? I don’t understand why he can’t do both considering he isn’t some heliocentric player like Harden or Luka where the entire offense is run through him.

If your main contention is patience I can understand that, even if that notion isn’t great imo considering we’re paying him the max next season. If you’re contending Barnes can only play offense or defense (but not both) then that is a huge issue going forward (but I will admit maybe I am interpreting your post incorrectly).

My main contention is patience. He will not carry a team on offense but he will score at least 20 a game on better efficiency. I’m also not using his worst offensive stretch of his career to define him as what he will be for his whole career.

I never said anything about playing only defense or offense. I am saying he will always be a guy who balances both but do see him getting more efficient on offense.

Yes the numbers don’t show this right now.

He’s had 2 months in the past 2 seasons being at or above league efficiency. That’s not a stretch. That is a trend.

You said that he was also “focusing on defense”. My question is what does that have to do with his offense?

Sure, we’ll see what the game plan is next season after the new roster plays together. I’m sure they’ll make the adjustments they need after the new roster starts playing together instead of going in with an idea to limit players.

Something tells me we’re not going to go from this year being a development year to next year being - you’re only allowed to dunk or cut from now on. But, we’ll see!

[TravisScott55]

Scottie Barnes last 3 games, 7.7 points, 4.3 assists and 3.7 rebounds, 26.3 MPG, 29.0 FG%, 11.0 3P%, 66.0 FT%

[SharoneWright]

Scottie Barnes last 3 games, 7.7 points, 4.3 assists and 3.7 rebounds, 26.3 MPG, 29.0 FG%, 11.0 3P%, 66.0 FT%

And he’s still playing games to qualify for all NBA!

[youngRAPZ]

Why do we have 2 complain about Scottie threads can’t they be merged or one just be locked


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[TOStateofMind]

how hasnt he been shut down yet

[Raptors_Dynasty]

He’s Ben Simmons with worse passing, defence, handles, and only slightly better shooting

[DKB333]

Scottie Barnes last 3 games, 7.7 points, 4.3 assists and 3.7 rebounds, 26.3 MPG, 29.0 FG%, 11.0 3P%, 66.0 FT%

Scottie Barnes is looking like Ben Simmons.

[raincityraptors]

Scottie Barnes last 3 games, 7.7 points, 4.3 assists and 3.7 rebounds, 26.3 MPG, 29.0 FG%, 11.0 3P%, 66.0 FT%

And he’s still playing games to qualify for all NBA!

As a Raptors fan and owner of a number 4 jersey I am really disappointed with the lack of consistent development in one area for very long. Sometimes his shot looks better. Sometimes it's his handle and passing. Right now it's his defense. The body of work and the trend of his first 4 seasons don't show me that a leap is coming.

I will be so happy/relieved if I'm wrong but the only thing that's consistent is his inconsistency. He was handed the offense, more shots and usage and has regressed offensively for the second time in 4 years. It's like he can't get it to stick.

Here is hoping BI can make Scottie an offball star.

Anyone who thinks we should be centering our offense around Scottie over BI has their bias showing.

[MainEvent]

Next year is his 5th season, its an odd number therefore he will be better. just facts

[DKB333]

Scottie Barnes last 3 games, 7.7 points, 4.3 assists and 3.7 rebounds, 26.3 MPG, 29.0 FG%, 11.0 3P%, 66.0 FT%

And he’s still playing games to qualify for all NBA!

As a Raptors fan and owner of a number 4 jersey I am really disappointed with the lack of consistent development in one area for very long. Sometimes his shot looks better. Sometimes it's his handle and passing. Right now it's his defense. The body of work and the trend of his first 4 seasons don't show me that a leap is coming.

I will be so happy/relieved if I'm wrong but the only thing that's consistent is his inconsistency. He was handed the offense, more shots and usage and has regressed offensively for the second time in 4 years. It's like he can't get it to stick.

Here is hoping BI can make Scottie an offball star.

Anyone who thinks we should be centering our offense around Scottie over BI has their bias showing.

They traded for BI to be the number one option. Barnes brings a lot to the table. It has looked rough this year though and even more so the last few games.

[faitaccompli]

Scottie Barnes last 3 games, 7.7 points, 4.3 assists and 3.7 rebounds, 26.3 MPG, 29.0 FG%, 11.0 3P%, 66.0 FT%

He currently has a hand injury.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using RealGM mobile app

[wolfv]

Scottie Barnes last 3 games, 7.7 points, 4.3 assists and 3.7 rebounds, 26.3 MPG, 29.0 FG%, 11.0 3P%, 66.0 FT%

Scottie Barnes is looking like Ben Simmons.

Scottie Simmons?

[mdenny]

Why in the world should Scottie be "shut down"?

That's insane talk. He needs to play.

I suspect that's only being suggested by the Scottie zombies who thought he was going to be a top 5 player and just want to suspend the reality that is crashing down on them.

Scotty's contract is fine. There was never gonna be a lesser annual number. But he needs to play because he needs to keep working on his game and gaining experience and maturity. And despite the "stats"...I truly believe he IS gaining experience and maturity. Twas once golden child....now he's going through the challenges and growing pains.

Literally the worst thing you could do to a young player like scotty is to stop playing him to shield him from the burden and hardships.

[Madvillainy2004]

Lmao look man if he can't score 10 ppg against bum teams like Pottland idk what to say.

[Merit]

Since this team has been healthier Barnes has actually been less efficient. The issue is there are things Barnes is doing that are not teammate dependent that is killing his efficiency. His ft% is below league average. This is not a huge deal but it’s still something. He’s shooting 30% on wide-open 3’s. The guy is one of the worst wide-open shooters in the league. It doesn’t really matter who’s on the floor with him if he can’t hit those shots.

Current Barnes is a bad candidate for a reduced usage role because if you take the ball out of his hands then he’s not creating as much, which is his best offensive attribute. And if he’s creating less and not spacing at all that’s a negative offensive player. Barnes should be more efficient in a reduced role but then you’re also taking away reps from his best offensive skill (passing). It’s not a great situation unless his shooting comes around.

The shooting needs to improve, agreed fully. That’s pretty well the only concern I have about his game. He’s young enough that he can still get better.

He would still create in the pick and roll. He doesn’t have to bring the ball up court, but he can as a one man fast break after a rebound.

The counter narrative to your suggestion is that he’s been playing injured or tired. I think it’s both. He’s propping up all bench units and getting looks for others that are bricked. Do I agree with your sentiment, yes - largely. He definitely needs to shoot better. However I’m far more optimistic about his shooting improving and his ability to play up with better players - if for no other reason than he’s done it already. Rookie Scottie did it.

If we’re talking about efficiency in transition then here are Barnes scoring ranks by year:

40th percentile
24th percentile
29th percentile
22nd percentile

He’s been a poor transition scorer every year.

Now let’s look at pnr ball handler efficiency:

94th (on very low volume)
18th
48th
54th

He’s making progress there but he’s still average.

This is the scoring efficiency by play type I am talking about. It’s not just as simple as ramping up transition because he’s also not a good scorer there. He also wasn’t even efficient in his rookie season (55 TS% which is below league average and he shot 30% from 3). He’s never been efficient regardless of who he’s played with.

If he has been playing injured then that is insane considering it’s a completely lost season. If he were injured we would have shut him down already. The tired excuse doesn’t fly either as he’s only played 60 games, he’s 23, playing a career low in mpg and his usage isn’t that high.

Bumping this up to reinforce my argument about why Scottie’s offensive output has dropped so suddenly and significantly this year.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/raptors-barnes-playing-through-discomfort-important-for-big-picture/

In it there’s a Blake Murphy tweet and quote that further substantiates this. If there’s anyone who has credibility within Raptors media it’s Blake.

Read on Twitter

So yes, injury has been a factor.

[Merit]

He’s Ben Simmons with worse passing, defence, handles, and only slightly better shooting

Goof grief.