The Tank Debate Thread

[heffmanhere]

Nothing that was said today indicated anything much of substance.

No other tank team is going to admit to it either, although their actions or lack thereof will make it abundantly clear what their intentions are. I'm speaking to you, Philadelphia.

All Masai really said was that if you want our players, give us decent offers. That's hardly earth-shattering.

Does adding Stone make this team appreciably better? Nope. Ditto Hansbrough. These additions are not going to make the team much better, and same for the subtractions. Bargs for Novak is a short term wash. The picks we get down the road will help us---down the road.

In a league where teams cannot openly admit to tanking, the Raps' leadership is saying all the right things. But their actions are hardly stolen pages from the secretetive How to Build an NBA Champion book.

I believe the team will unload Gay, DD and or Lowry once better offers emerge, and that may take some time. Their patience will be rewarded and they'll be further along in their rebuilding process once they do----all the while being able to say and show and they weren't deliberately trying to lose to secure one of the premier talents in the 2014 draft.

Nothing I read or heard today, tells me otherwise.

[EG73]

your statement has so much fail in it

Please explain. It is because of the quality of my English ?

Of course I'm anti-tanking. See my second post (just after yours).
I think we should forget the idea of ' championship or nothing'. Statistically (and 'realistically'), the probability of championship is very low. It's a little bit like having a baseball player try the homerun at every pitch: he will get some homeruns, but will be striked out 90% of time.

Edit: PS: if you disagree with me, please look at your signature.

Then STOP WATCHING PROFESSIONAL SPORTS you fkng softie.

Don't know if sarcastic.
If you only care about championship, did you ever enjoyed seeing the Raptors ?
And if OKC, Nuggets, Memphis, Pacers and Clippers don't win a championship in the next 10 years, would you call 'softies' the people who enjoyed to see them play ?

[TheRealBlizzy]

Nothing that was said today indicated anything much of substance.

No other tank team is going to admit to it either, although their actions or lack thereof will make it abundantly clear what their intentions are. I'm speaking to you, Philadelphia.

All Masai really said was that if you want our players, give us decent offers. That's hardly earth-shattering.

Does adding Stone make this team appreciably better? Nope. Ditto Hansbrough. These additions are not going to make the team much better, and same for the subtractions. Bargs for Novak is a short term wash. The picks we get down the road will help us---down the road.

In a league where teams cannot openly admit to tanking, the Raps' leadership is saying all the right things. But their actions are hardly stolen pages from the secretetive How to Build an NBA Champion book.

I believe the team will unload Gay, DD and or Lowry once better offers emerge, and that may take some time. Their patience will be rewarded and they'll be further along in their rebuilding process once they do----all the while being able to say and show and they weren't deliberately trying to lose to secure one of the premier talents in the 2014 draft.

Nothing I read or heard today, tells me otherwise.

Exactly what I think, its hard to fathom people think unless we straight up say we are tanking that there is no chance in hell we do it, im pretty sure you can get fined for these types of things lol. What kind of GM would come out and say HEY WERE FOR SURE TANKING TAKE RUDY AND DEMAR FOR A BAG OF CHIPS!!!

[Anatomize]

LOL.. in that video Randle looks like he`s playing against grade 4 children.. what a size discrepancy.

[akakalakin]

quitting is never acceptable

[TheRealBlizzy]

Please explain. It is because of the quality of my English ?

Of course I'm anti-tanking. See my second post (just after yours).
I think we should forget the idea of ' championship or nothing'. Statistically (and 'realistically'), the probability of championship is very low. It's a little bit like having a baseball player try the homerun at every pitch: he will get some homeruns, but will be striked out 90% of time.

Edit: PS: if you disagree with me, please look at your signature.

Then STOP WATCHING PROFESSIONAL SPORTS you fkng softie.

Don't know if sarcastic.
If you only care about championship, did you ever enjoyed seeing the Raptors ?
And if OKC, Nuggets, Memphis, Pacers and Clippers don't win a championship in the next 10 years, would you call 'softies' the people who enjoyed to see them play ?

When VC was here, I LEGIT had hope we were down the path to win a title. Hell we were one shot away from the fkn EC FINALS! (finals 99.9% we had them bucks).

That is what I want, Pro-Tankers aren't saying nothing is worth it without a title, but going into the playoffs with 0 hope of winning vs a realistic shot at a title are two different things entirely.

Ask the bucks and ask the spurs fans how they felt going into the playoffs last year, bucks probably couldn't wait to get it over with. It is embarrassing to finally get nationally televised games and get blown out by 30, almost worse then not making the playoffs in the first place. I don't want to be the first round fodder LBJ and DWade showboat over while coasting to the second round.

[UneducatedFan86]

LOL.. in that video Randle looks like he`s playing against grade 4 children.. what a size discrepancy.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJqaMioXegU[/youtube]

Here's a video of him with his AAU team. The competition definitely looks better, but the guy is still really dominating. I was watching some videos of Bosh his senior year...and Randle is head and shoulders above him in a lot of aspects at the same age. Randle is shorter, but has a better overall frame and there is still room for him to grow.

[TANKNATION]

Pro tankers come here. this is the perfect time for us to tank. this is the best draft in a decade and teams realize this, hence why more teams than ever are doing it this season. this roster is a first round exit... Tank nation, operation wiggins!

Don't you think you're thread is deserving of a proper definition of what exactly you mean by tanking (in detail) and what you're expected outcome might be (worst case scenario to best case)?

nah too lazy lol

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Over the last six months, this is what's pretty much happened:

-At PF, we've basically lost Ed Davis and Andrea Bargnani, and have replaced them with Novak and Hansbrough.
-At SF, we've gained Rudy Gay, which is huge, & from the sounds of it, could have Quincy Acy fill Kleiza's shoes potentially.
-And at PG, we've swapped out Jose Calderon, John Lucas, and Sebastian Telfair with Julian Stone.
-At SG, Alan Anderson is looking to be the odd man out.

Obviously, we're not done by any stretch of the imagination. We need a backup PG, another capable wing would be nice in place of Kleiza, maybe. And of course, we're going to really need Ross to develop quickly and/or Fields to start shooting the ball better.

[Maple Jordan]

Jumps aboard.

Tank CIty all day!!!

[Anatomize]

What a beast..

[dkb33]

The reason people want to tank THIS season is not because of Andrew Wiggins but because of Juilis Randle, Jabari Parker, Marcus Smart, Joel Emiid, Aaron Gordon, Andrew Harrison, Dario Sarric, Montrezl Harrel & Dante Exum.

There are 10 guys I would much rather have then be the Bucks of the NBA next season. This draft may go down as the best of all time 5-10 years from now. MU is a joke if he does not see this and tries to make the Nuggets of the East that gets bounced because of lack of top tier talent. I am very very worried that the core BC put together is going to be the roster this season. That will make me sick to my stomach considering we have 1 maybe 2 player if you include DeRozan that are young and have potential.

[EG73]

I think that for long term, tanking is doing more harm than good.

Harm: losing culture, bad reputation. F.A. not interested to play for the team. Players want to leave. Having to overpay. No desire to have success other than having a better next contract. Losing fans, sponsors, TV contracts, etc.

Nobody wants to play for us anyway, raptors have a losing culture already, are the butt of all jokes, TV contracts do not matter at all because the TV stations own the team, sponsors are just leafs sponsors carried over (want to advertise at leafs? pay for some raptors signage to get in) .. everyone already comes here to play for a better contract or comes because we overpay, thats it.. even stevey nash turned us down for less money!

Good: drafting a great player ??? probability of success is low

There are 5 franchise prospects in this draft. check 2003.

In order to have a successful tanking (if definition is championship contender), you need ALL the following criteria :

- be really bad, or really unlucky with injuries (would you renew your season tickets ?)

we are pretty bad.. and have been unlucky with injuries often.

- being lucky with lottery (check maths, lottery history !)

you can also finish 13th and win it, but 25% chance is just for the first pick, lets say we did have the first pick, the chance we end up maintaining our position in the top5 picks is above 90%.

- having franchise players in the draft (not even every year)

Well hey, there are FIVE this year!

- make the right choice

if you have faith in the gm to rebuild, you better have faith they can draft too? also much easier 5 prospects basically cant miss and one is a hometown superhero

- the player stays healthy (Oden, B. Roy)

our whole team could die tonight, so this is pointless

- the player wants to stay with the team (Bosh, VC, LBJ, etc)

no player on our current team would like to stay more then ANDREW WIGGINS FROM TORONTO!


So IMHO the probability of having a very successful tanking is very low.
Spurs won a championship with the franchise player they drafted (the 6 criteria were respected). But they are the exception, and this is not even the only reason they won championships.

Look what chronic 'tanking' (and injuries) have done to this franchise (not attractive for players, as you wrote too). In the unrealistic best-case scenario, a franchise player (even Wiggins) will do like LBJ did in Cleveland.

After many years of bad W-L record and high draft pics, the Raptors were still in the bottom last season. I don't think history showed us that having lottery pics was a successful long-term strategy.

Faith in GM ? Everybody had faith in BC in his first year in Toronto. 'in BC we trust'.

Since Araujo was drafted, I stopped to follow draft candidates. So I cannot disagree with you if you are suggesting that there will be five possible franchise players in next draft. But IMHO it is far from sure. Too many examples of failure of good candidates (B. Roy, Milicic, Oden, etc) and bad candidates (podkolzine was considered to be a top 3 pic, a few months before the draft).
And in the unrealistic scenario of having the first 5 teams choose a real franchise player, how many of them will win a championship with the player they drafted ? Probably ZERO. Or one.

[TheRealBlizzy]

let the tank roll on ... i can't wait for the day when the raptors are contenders and we still have draft pick prospects like reggie jackson, lamb, and PJIII stashed away somewhere in case any of our main guys acts up and wants to get overpaid! lol

[Chuck Newhouse]

Pro tankers come here. this is the perfect time for us to tank. this is the best draft in a decade and teams realize this, hence why more teams than ever are doing it this season. this roster is a first round exit... Tank nation, operation wiggins!

Don't you think you're thread is deserving of a proper definition of what exactly you mean by tanking (in detail) and what you're expected outcome might be (worst case scenario to best case)?

nah too lazy lol

It's clearly more difficult to understand what it all means than most pro tankers think. There are a lot of levels and layers to consider.

[akakalakin]

really don't tank just to watch the tankers splode!

[TheRealBlizzy]

I think that for long term, tanking is doing more harm than good.

Harm: losing culture, bad reputation. F.A. not interested to play for the team. Players want to leave. Having to overpay. No desire to have success other than having a better next contract. Losing fans, sponsors, TV contracts, etc.

Nobody wants to play for us anyway, raptors have a losing culture already, are the butt of all jokes, TV contracts do not matter at all because the TV stations own the team, sponsors are just leafs sponsors carried over (want to advertise at leafs? pay for some raptors signage to get in) .. everyone already comes here to play for a better contract or comes because we overpay, thats it.. even stevey nash turned us down for less money!

Good: drafting a great player ??? probability of success is low

There are 5 franchise prospects in this draft. check 2003.

In order to have a successful tanking (if definition is championship contender), you need ALL the following criteria :

- be really bad, or really unlucky with injuries (would you renew your season tickets ?)

we are pretty bad.. and have been unlucky with injuries often.

- being lucky with lottery (check maths, lottery history !)

you can also finish 13th and win it, but 25% chance is just for the first pick, lets say we did have the first pick, the chance we end up maintaining our position in the top5 picks is above 90%.

- having franchise players in the draft (not even every year)

Well hey, there are FIVE this year!

- make the right choice

if you have faith in the gm to rebuild, you better have faith they can draft too? also much easier 5 prospects basically cant miss and one is a hometown superhero

- the player stays healthy (Oden, B. Roy)

our whole team could die tonight, so this is pointless

- the player wants to stay with the team (Bosh, VC, LBJ, etc)

no player on our current team would like to stay more then ANDREW WIGGINS FROM TORONTO!


So IMHO the probability of having a very successful tanking is very low.
Spurs won a championship with the franchise player they drafted (the 6 criteria were respected). But they are the exception, and this is not even the only reason they won championships.

Look what chronic 'tanking' (and injuries) have done to this franchise (not attractive for players, as you wrote too). In the unrealistic best-case scenario, a franchise player (even Wiggins) will do like LBJ did in Cleveland.

After many years of bad W-L record and high draft pics, the Raptors were still in the bottom last season. I don't think history showed us that having lottery pics was a successful long-term strategy.

Faith in GM ? Everybody had faith in BC in his first year in Toronto. 'in BC we trust'.

Since Araujo was drafted, I stopped to follow draft candidates. So I cannot disagree with you if you are suggesting that there will be five possible franchise players in next draft. But IMHO it is far from sure. Too many examples of failure of good candidates (B. Roy, Milicic, Oden, etc) and bad candidates (podkolzine was considered to be a top 3 pic, a few months before the draft).
And in the unrealistic scenario of having the first 5 teams choose a real franchise player, how many of them will win a championship with the player they drafted ? Probably ZERO. Or one.

LBJ is a puss, if Wiggins does that to us the same way LBJ did after winning 65 games and getting to the finals, then we burn every Wiggins jersey and riot outside his house/condo.

We have never had high draft picks though, you fail to see this. Every year we do not try to tank, we try to RETOOL and end up with a 10-20th pick and outside the playoffs (or wow 8th seed once every 5 yrs). The ONLY high draft pick we have had is BARGNANI, who crippled this franchise. We got the #1 pick in the worst draft in the last 15 years. That is HORRIBLE luck, not typical when you tank actually.

And yes, since you do not follow draft picks, you should watch some videos and maybe it might change the stance you take.

Google Jabrai Parker , Andrew Wiggins (toronto born), Julius Randle, Aaron Gordon, Marcus Smart... among many others.

I don't want to sound like a dick but how can you try to argue anything with me when you clearly don't follow basketball enough, saying Arujo was the last prospect you ever followed prior to being in the nba. Most NBA fans tend to follow prospects, even without trying, as word spreads fast esp on forums like this.

[TheRealBlizzy]

really don't tank just to watch the tankers splode!

I don't think anyone is that serious about sports, its entertainment. We all love it but at the end of the day have no effect on any decision they make, so it is what it is at the end of the day.

I would love to be a contender, others just want to be competitive in the regular ssn ~ .500 ball (hey maybe better im not going to doubt we cant improve a bit) and get a good round of playoffs games in and be done with it..

Its a personal preference, although I am starting to hate when people say that fans who are willing to watch / support a team through a horrible season to have a brighter future are not actual fans of the team, while the real fans are ones who just want to squeeze in one extra playoff appearance this year.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Don't you think you're thread is deserving of a proper definition of what exactly you mean by tanking (in detail) and what you're expected outcome might be (worst case scenario to best case)?

nah too lazy lol

It's clearly more difficult to understand what it all means than most pro tankers think. There are a lot of levels and layers to consider.

We tried already, but nobody responds with any valid points to any post with substance, they skim over those, wait for the responses that they can actually respond to and then post, so its not worth the time.

[akakalakin]

really don't tank just to watch the tankers splode!

I don't think anyone is that serious about sports, its entertainment. We all love it but at the end of the day have no effect on any decision they make, so it is what it is at the end of the day.

I would love to be a contender, others just want to be competitive in the regular ssn ~ .500 ball (hey maybe better im not going to doubt we cant improve a bit) and get a good round of playoffs games in and be done with it..

Its a personal preference, although I am starting to hate when people say that fans who are willing to watch / support a team through a horrible season to have a brighter future are not actual fans of the team, while the real fans are ones who just want to squeeze in one extra playoff appearance this year.

they are both fans, not agreeing on the plan is all