State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. (FIBA Americas Aug.31-Sep.15)

[TRNBA12]

Bennett will not be this bad by 2020. He's still a more talented player than most and it would be an embarrassing enough fate if by the middle of his career he was either Marcus Morris (tweener 7th man, reasonable valuable) or Bargnani (good stats on a bad team but everyone knows he doesn't impact the game). By Team Canada standards any regular rotation player matters though

[Hendrix]

I never realized Heslip was Jay Triano's nephew.

[Hendrix]

Bennett will not be this bad by 2020. He's still a more talented player than most and it would be an embarrassing enough fate if by the middle of his career he was either Marcus Morris (tweener 7th man, reasonable valuable) or Bargnani (good stats on a bad team but everyone knows he doesn't impact the game). By Team Canada standards any regular rotation player matters though

I dunno man. What does Bennett really have going for him, and how is he more talented than most? At this point where you are drafted doesn't matter, and it just comes down to production. Production wise what is he doing better than, say.... 2nd round Knicks pick Cleanthony Early? Both guys are only capable of getting ~15mpg on a ~15 win garbage team, scoring a bit on .460ts%, and not really providing anything outside of inefficient scoring.

He may get better by his prime, but he doesn't seem like that promising of a prospect at this point imo, and he plays a position that team Canada currently has a decent amount of players better than him. He's worse than Tristan, Olynyk, Nicholson, currently and has some guys on his heels like Powell, and Wiltjer that may pan out better than him.

I think we should continue to support him, and have him a part of the program. Hopefully he gets better. But, at this point I don't see him as much of a prospect any more.

[SharoneWright]

I never realized Heslip was Jay Triano's nephew.

Soon and very soon, we're gonna have to break up this Nash/Triano/Heslip cabal. The peak era of Canadian basketball should not be run by some insulated, clubby, nepotistic, mutual admiration society. There must be accountability.

How would we like it if Carmelo Anthony was the GM and Jim Boeheim was the coach and Boeheim's nephew was trying out for the team...

(It's not about Heslip. It's about pax Nash/Triano)

[jonny three time]

I never watched any Team Canada ball last summer, but I watched every minute of every game in 13 as well as many games in previous years, so having said that, Rautins needs to be on this team. The only times hes looked weak or under performed has been when he's been given way too many minutes in stretches of like 6 or 7 games in 8 or 9 nights. He's not a physical horse like that, but in the right amount of minutes he's the ideal balance of PnR, spot up shooting, creating for others and just fundamental defense and passing. Leo's kid and the spite that brings from some aside, he does all the stuff Leo preaches just without an NBA frame, which is what this young team needs.

You can't have Carl "homeless mans Kobe" English chucking like a maniac during the exact tournament when your trying to create a style of play for the young core to emulate. It's an idiotic risk to take that he'll do his best Andy Rautins impression rather than just taking Andy instead. Same thing with Kendall at the bigs spot, or Doornekamp at the 3. Either of those guys could be left off the teams for more talented players who play fundamental FIBA ball. However, If the other options are guys who lack those skills, or dont play that style, dont bring them. Our young NBA players need to play with and practice with guys whos minds for the game are perfect for them to learn from for these types of tournaments.

[slothrop8]

People have to remember that Anthony Bennett is younger than Hanlan, Pangos, and Wiltjer. He's almost 2 full years younger than Powell. He is still a very young player - this would have been his Jr year - instead he has two seasons of NBA experience. He certainly has not played well at the NBA level yet - but there is ample time for him to be a contributor at the NBA level and big part of the Canadian national team.

[Hendrix]

Do you guys see any prospects in the system that you like to become quality NBA players, and starters on team Canada?

I don't see a lot of high end guys coming up like Wiggins, Thompson, Joseph, etc... but I do like what I've seen from Jamal Murray so far. He seems like a well rounded, full package, type of player. Good size, athletisism, handles, outside shot, finishing around the buck, recruited by a lot of top programs, etc... If he could turn into something, it would really help us at one of our weaker positions.

[Hendrix]

I didn't mean to desparage TT. I think he has an important role, but is not the key piece some people may have historically thought. He is also more easily replaceable than some other people/positions. But to think he could do anything near what Faried did last year would have me excited.

You'd think Stauskas (and English) could spend some time at the 3 if needed. But the 3 is still a glaring weakness that doesnt have an obvious person to fill it in the next few years. There is talk of Wiltjer playing the 3 at Gonzaga next year - I am not sure if I see it (he is just too slow to defend 3s). And hopefully Pierre gets back to playing the 3 next year - he always seems to be under everyones radar. I still have hopes for Kris Joseph to step up.

I cringed at the thought of Heslip on the SMNT last year, but I'd have to say his play in the D and Europe this year makes me believe he will be a valuable piece for the SMNT (not just Triano/Nash nepotism) - his range has been mind boggleing this year.

I agree that I don't have high hopes this summer for rookies looking for their first contract (Lyles, Pangos, Hanlan etc.) - they will be too focused auditioning in summer league (Pangos) or need to commit to the summer plans of the team that drafts them (Lyles). It may even impact the committment of young unsigned players (Birch, Bachynski, Heslip) - who knows, perhaps being on the SMNT helps their cause with potential contracts.

And let's hope free agents like TT, CJ and Nicholson get contracts buttoned up asap we are going to need them (especially CJ).

Are you talking about backup 3 being a glaring weakness? I don't really see it as much of a problem. Wiggins can give you most of the minutes at the 3, then you just need someone to slip in there for 10 minutes or so to spell him. I think we can get away with one of our bigger SG's, or smaller PF's playing there for a small stretch if it comes down to it.

[SharoneWright]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:12599804

[Hendrix]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:12599804

Lol, that's (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

So, the best thing for team Canada is to not make the Olympics next year? What kind of backwards logic does it take to get there? Apparently Wiggins will become an all star if he doesn't play any 5 on 5 this summer, but won't become an all star if he does play 5 on 5? Why would a players destiny completely change based on a couple weeks worth of games in the summer? And, why would practicing/playing against good players be a bad thing in the first place?

[Mattd97]

I never watched any Team Canada ball last summer, but I watched every minute of every game in 13 as well as many games in previous years, so having said that, Rautins needs to be on this team. The only times hes looked weak or under performed has been when he's been given way too many minutes in stretches of like 6 or 7 games in 8 or 9 nights. He's not a physical horse like that, but in the right amount of minutes he's the ideal balance of PnR, spot up shooting, creating for others and just fundamental defense and passing. Leo's kid and the spite that brings from some aside, he does all the stuff Leo preaches just without an NBA frame, which is what this young team needs.

You can't have Carl "homeless mans Kobe" English chucking like a maniac during the exact tournament when your trying to create a style of play for the young core to emulate. It's an idiotic risk to take that he'll do his best Andy Rautins impression rather than just taking Andy instead. Same thing with Kendall at the bigs spot, or Doornekamp at the 3. Either of those guys could be left off the teams for more talented players who play fundamental FIBA ball. However, If the other options are guys who lack those skills, or dont play that style, dont bring them. Our young NBA players need to play with and practice with guys whos minds for the game are perfect for them to learn from for these types of tournaments.

yeah thats kindve what i was getting at too. English is way better than rautins or heslip, but on the team as it should be constructed this summer, rautins/heslip fit the bill better. Rautins has always played well for us, despite the nepotism involved and the waft of douche. But doornekamp has done nothing to deserve the respect he gets (basketball wise, not loyalty wise). He does not help us win, hes constatntly at a major skill disadvantage. He should be nowhere near the SMNT final rosters with the talent we have at this point. Shepperd and Kendall bring things to the table, he does not.

[Young_Buc]

I think Lyles may end up being the best big on the team by 2020. His skillset is really really nice. To echo hendrix, I see Jamal Murray as being the next lottery pick but not much else on the horizon till Barrett Jr (who will only be 20 years old by then)

[aminiaturebuddha]

It's so hard to make accurate predictions about the really young guys, but yes, it appears that there aren't any super high end players on the way until Barrett Jr.

Outside of Lyles, the current guy that I think may have the best chance of making an impact in the NBA (i.e. becoming a solid rotation player or better) would actually be Xavier Rathan-Mayes. He really came on at the end of the year after sitting out last year because he was deemed academically ineligible. By the end of the season, it seemed pretty clear that he was the leader and best player on that Florida St. team as a freshman.

Next year, Florida St. gets a couple of highly ranked recruits at the SG position, which means that Rathan-Mayes should play almost exclusively PG for them. He showed much more in the way of PG skills than I thought he was capable of this year. If he can continue to improve that aspect of his game, boost his overall production, and lead Florida St. to a much better record next year (all of which I think are distinct possibilities), I could definitely see him in the mix for a 1st round pick in 2016.

The only downside is that he is already basically 2 years older that many other sophomores will be next year. I hope NBA scouts don't think that limits his "upside" too much.

[mojo13]

I was going to echo XRM as well. He had some enourmous games this year, although, overall he shot fairly ineffeciently and turned the ball over a tonne. He has a chance to grow into something special as the building blocks seem to be there. More time at the PG and better players around him will help.

Dillon Brooks had some great games in Oregon too this year and could grow into an NBA player. He was an undersized 4 though and you'd think he needs to transition more to a 3.

Don't forget Wiltjer too... he is a very likely an All-American next year and likely one of the top offesnsive players in the NCAA.
He improved so much between his last year at Kentucky and this year at Gonzaga. If he can keep on that path he will be very hard for the NBA to ignore despite his age and poor D.

Agree that Jamal Murray seems to be the next big thing not already in the NCAA.

[mojo13]

I never watched any Team Canada ball last summer, but I watched every minute of every game in 13 as well as many games in previous years, so having said that, Rautins needs to be on this team. The only times hes looked weak or under performed has been when he's been given way too many minutes in stretches of like 6 or 7 games in 8 or 9 nights. He's not a physical horse like that, but in the right amount of minutes he's the ideal balance of PnR, spot up shooting, creating for others and just fundamental defense and passing. Leo's kid and the spite that brings from some aside, he does all the stuff Leo preaches just without an NBA frame, which is what this young team needs.

You can't have Carl "homeless mans Kobe" English chucking like a maniac during the exact tournament when your trying to create a style of play for the young core to emulate. It's an idiotic risk to take that he'll do his best Andy Rautins impression rather than just taking Andy instead. Same thing with Kendall at the bigs spot, or Doornekamp at the 3. Either of those guys could be left off the teams for more talented players who play fundamental FIBA ball. However, If the other options are guys who lack those skills, or dont play that style, dont bring them. Our young NBA players need to play with and practice with guys whos minds for the game are perfect for them to learn from for these types of tournaments.

yeah thats kindve what i was getting at too. English is way better than rautins or heslip, but on the team as it should be constructed this summer, rautins/heslip fit the bill better. Rautins has always played well for us, despite the nepotism involved and the waft of douche. But doornekamp has done nothing to deserve the respect he gets (basketball wise, not loyalty wise). He does not help us win, hes constatntly at a major skill disadvantage. He should be nowhere near the SMNT final rosters with the talent we have at this point. Shepperd and Kendall bring things to the table, he does not.

I see your point and I can get behind Rautins (or Heslip) over English. I am more concerned that we might overlook some of Euro "stars" at the expense of some currently terrible NBA players like Stauskas and Bennett. I think Rautins, Heslip or English bring more certainty this summer and one or two of them need to be on the team. I think Stauskas should be there too, but I am uncertain about Bennett.

PS: Not that it matters much, but Rautins won the 3pt contest in the Italian League allstar game this year.

[frumble]

Some great discussion here.

Re future top talent, I agree that we probably don't have any real top end talent in the next few high school classes, and that our next potential top 10 guys are likely Barrett Jr and Shi_ttu. (this summer's Cadet team will be fun to follow).

But the Class of 2016 might be our deepest class ever. No top 20s, but Jamal Murray, Justin Jackson (if he doesn't re-classify) and Howard Washington are top 50. And between Nolan Narain, Brandon Cyrus, Jordy Tshimanga, Koby McEewen, Eddie Ekiyor, and Jermaine Haley, we could end up with 6 or 7 top 100 guys. Which would be, by far, the most ever.


Re whether we are talking about the 3 as a glaring weakness in terms of who will back up Wiggins for 10 minutes a game, I think it is partly that but partly in consideration of the fact that Wiggins is by no means certain to play this summer or next. Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I just don't have the sense that Wiggins (or Stauskas) is as committed as, e.g, Joseph, Ennis, Powell or Olynyk, and I don't think we can count on the 3 (and 2) issue just being a question of who backs up Wiggins (and Stauskas).

Re Bennett, I agree that it is a little early to give up on him. He showed flashes for Minnesota this season, and if it hadn't been for injuries may have developed more. He gives us something the other 4s don't in that he is more athletic (e.g., than Thompson, Nicholson or Powell). I don't see him as a main cog this summer, but I think he could have a role off the bench.

Re Rautins, I am not a big fan, and I don't think he has always played well for us. I will try and dig up the stats later, but my recollection is that he has had some good summers for us and some poor ones (of course, the same could be said for English and Heslip). Among the three, for what its worth, English and Heslip are having better seasons in Europe.

[Undefeated]

Dillon Brooks played a lot at the 3 during the FIBA America's U18 last year sharing ball-handling duties with Provo so he has some experience at that position.

[Hendrix]

It's probably quite possible too that we don't see the next legit NBA player coming, right?

We've had guy like Myck that we thought were NBA stars when they were in high school. But, then on the other end of the spectrum we've had guys like Olynyk that went from obscurity, to a break out 3rd year in college, and is now arguably the 3rd most important player for team Canada's offense. Maybe the next quality NBA guy will be just another ho-hum 4 star recruit that really takes it to another level in College.

[Hendrix]

Re whether we are talking about the 3 as a glaring weakness in terms of who will back up Wiggins for 10 minutes a game, I think it is partly that but partly in consideration of the fact that Wiggins is by no means certain to play this summer or next. Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I just don't have the sense that Wiggins (or Stauskas) is as committed as, e.g, Joseph, Ennis, Powell or Olynyk, and I don't think we can count on the 3 (and 2) issue just being a question of who backs up Wiggins (and Stauskas).

Really? Maybe I'm optimistic, but some things that have been said lead me to believe he'll play. For example

Wiggins said:

“It’s exciting to have the Pan Am Games in my hometown of Toronto this summer,” Wiggins said. “Having the opportunity to play at home is very special for Team Canada and the country.”

Triano said:

“Every player that I’ve talked to has indicated that they want to play in both Pan Ams and the qualifying tournament,” Team Canada head coach Jay Triano told reporters as the Games’ schedule and draw were released Thursday morning. “The fact it’s in our backyard, these guys are pretty excited.”

If someone plays in the Pan Am games, I don't see how they would skip the tournament that could get us into the Olympics, just a month later. To me, it just seems likely that if he's playing/practicing with team Canada, and hanging out with his Team Canada buddies that will be playing in the tournament, he stands a good chance at playing as well. But, maybe I'm optimistic.

[mojo13]

I am wishfully banking on:
Wiggins
Powell
Sacre
Ennis
Olynyk

I'm a little nervous about:
Stauskas (committment, King's interferance - key offseason to help fix his broke game)
Thompson (contract)
Nicholson (contract)
Cory Joseph (contract)

I can't really comment on the rest as I am not sure their contract or personal situations. But hoping we have a big enough pool to fill in the gaps (K. Joseph, Rautins, English, Heslip, Hanlan, Lyles, Pangos, Wiltjer, Kendall, Sheppard, D. Joseph, Birch, Bachynski etc.)