Kyle Lowry's prime vs. Isiah Thomas' prime (Zeke not the Leprechaun)

[ThatClockWork]

you can't rely on comparing stats between players from 2 different eras

It's pace adjusted and Lowry has better advanced stats across the boards.

Isiah has a case in any discussion for best PG's of all time... Lowry not so much

So the make case for Zeke because the numbers above don't. They say Lowry is clearly better.

THESE STATS ARE FAKE!!!!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lowryky01.html

Lowry's average points scored in his 7 years as a Raptor is 17.4
Thomas's average points in his 7 year peak (between the 1983 to 1989) is 20.7

I don't know how the stats in that poll were calculated but a quick verification shows the stats are wrong.

oop-

[DarkKnight]

I find it interesting that people are quick to defend Isiah's era as different/better...where I think the opposite is true. The lineup of PGs in the IT era is very underwhelming. The current NBA is the greatest collection of PG talent by far.

Top PGs by Win Shares, 1983-84 to 1989-1990, combined:

Magic
Stockton
Thomas
Mo Cheeks (11 PPG career, made HOF 25 years after retiring)

and then:

Fat Lever
Derek Harper
Doc Rivers
Sleepy Floyd
Danny Ainge
Tenny Porter

Those are the guys that IT had to beat for All-star spots and All-NBA spots. Compare to the same list in the Lowry Toronto 7 years:

Harden
Curry
CP3
Westbrook
Lillard
Lowry
Kyrie
Conley
Kemba
Dragic

There are 3 MVPs on that list and it's a fair bet that there are 7+ HOFers there. Lowry is underrated in large part because he plays in an era absolutely stacked with monsters playing that position. Thomas rarely had to face someone who was close to his equal. Lowry does it every other night.

[poomaster]

Isiah and it's not even close.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Where did this guy get his numbers from? According bball ref, IT's best years from 82/83 - 88/89 he averaged 21/10/4. Lowry averaged 17/7/5 during raps tenure.

These are presumably pace adjusted numbers.

[XxIronChainzxX]

it is straight up disrespectful (to Zeke)...massively disrespectful to put Kyle in the same breath as original Dream Teamer (if it wasnt for GOAT) Zeke...Stop this.(nice original Post to show how "identical" numbers from different eras can be so deceiving !)
anyway Kyle will be in the HOF.

It would be shocking if Kyle makes the HOF. More than that though, I think the comparison is more about trying to challenge a perception.

[canada_dry]

A lot of that is a matter of circumstances.

Chris Paul was a multiple runner up MVP who couldn't lead his team past the 2nd round in his career. He only made the conference finals as a second fiddle to Harden when he was past his prime. Most people would consider Chris Paul one of the top 5 point guards of all-time and arguably better than IT.

Lowry as the best player of his team led the Raptors to game 6 of the ECF against the champion Cavaliers in 2016. Lowry as the best player of his team led the Raptors to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, including a 1st and 2nd seed ranking in the East. That's very, very impressive.

Charles Barkley is considered the 2nd or 3rd greatest power forward of all-time with Karl Malone and Tim Duncan but only made the finals once in his career.

Has Isiah Thomas had a better career than Lowry? Yes.

Is the gap between Isiah Thomas and Lowry close? Yes.

Its not close in the playoffs.

And u compared guys that werent able to win for one reason or another. They were still capable of winning.titles as the best guys. Lowry wasnt and we know it. Domt be dishonest with yourself.And anyways The reason why that is nonsense is because isiah still won titles. So why bring up guys that didnt when the comparison is to a guy who won two?

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Because Isiah had guys like Rodman, Dumars, Laimbeer, Dantley, Aguirre etc. I am not taking anything away from Isiah, he's a better point guard than Lowry. I'm just saying that the gap between them isn't as big as what people think. Isiah is a 1st ballot hall of hamer, but Lowry (while not a 1st ballot) deserves to be a hall of famer as well.

Same with a guy like Billups. Billups is a great point guard and was the finals MVP on that 2004 Pistons team, but it helped he had Rip Hamilton, Sheed and Ben Wallace on that team...it was stacked.

Yeah, and Lowry won a title as well, lol. Lowry led the Raptors to game 6 of the ECF against the Cavaliers with Demar as his running mate and a supporting of JV, Patterson, Biyombo, Cojo, Carroll, Powell etc. while Isiah Thomas led his team to a chip with Rodman (the best defensive player and rebounder in the league), Dumars (a multiple time all-star and also one of the top defensive players in the league), Laimbeer (a multiple-time all-star and former top rebounder in the league), Dantley (multiple time all-star and 2 time scoring champ), and Aguirre (multiple time all-star).

So Isiah basically played with 3 other all-stars on his team in their prime (including Dantley who led the NBA in scoring and Aguirre after he was traded for Dantley who was also a top scorer).

If the gap isn't big then do this exact exercise but with their playoff numbers and prove it. Because noone has ever doubted a prime lowry in the SEASON.

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[ash_k]

it is straight up disrespectful (to Zeke)...massively disrespectful to put Kyle in the same breath as original Dream Teamer (if it wasnt for GOAT) Zeke...Stop this.(nice original Post to show how "identical" numbers from different eras can be so deceiving !)
anyway Kyle will be in the HOF.

It would be shocking if Kyle makes the HOF. More than that though, I think the comparison is more about trying to challenge a perception.

shocking? interesting. 5-times All-Star NBA champ and all. My measuring stick with Kyle's HOF credentials is with Chauncey Billups.
As soon as Chauncey goes in, it will guarantee Kyle's

[LLJ]

Analytics era have not been kind to Isiah.

For the record, Bird, MJ and Magic still hold up well in analytics

[jojo152433]

you can't rely on comparing stats between players from 2 different eras

Isiah has a case in any discussion for best PG's of all time... Lowry not so much

lol I get your point but thats such an exaggeration. Its like saying Clyde is in the discussion for best SG of all time, just no.

Really? I think a lot of fans who have been around long enough to see Clyde would say he was absolutely one of the best shooting guards ever. He got the Blazers to the Finals as the #1.

He got them there twice too. Ironically the first time was against Zeke's Pistons. They were dominated by the Pistons though.

It's not talked about much* in the pantheon of games the refs took over, but Game 6 of the 1992 NBA Finals was a complete joke. The Blazers went into the 4th quarter with a large lead and for the rest of the game every single call went Jordan et al's way. As a lifelong Blazers fan, it still bothers me. No one talks about this: a) because it's Jordan & b) the Kings/Lakers game was worse

[Metallikid]

lol I get your point but thats such an exaggeration. Its like saying Clyde is in the discussion for best SG of all time, just no.

Really? I think a lot of fans who have been around long enough to see Clyde would say he was absolutely one of the best shooting guards ever. He got the Blazers to the Finals as the #1.

He got them there twice too. Ironically the first time was against Zeke's Pistons. They were dominated by the Pistons though.

It's not talked about much* in the pantheon of games the refs took over, but Game 6 of the 1992 NBA Finals was a complete joke. The Blazers went into the 4th quarter with a large lead and for the rest of the game every single call went Jordan et al's way. As a lifelong Blazers fan, it still bothers me. No one talks about this: a) because it's Jordan & b) the Kings/Lakers game was worse

Personally I am of the opinion that MJ never had to beat teams even close in talent level to the ones LeBron played against in his Finals appearances so I wouldn't be surprised that Stern favoured MJ. There's are reasons none of those Finals ever went to seven games and I don't ascribe it all to Air Jordan...

[WaltFrazier]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

So you all are saying, objectively, Lowry should be number 5 on this list? That's the best way I can say how far off this is. Zeke is just a different class. And the NBA Finals MVP award will keep him there.

And lol at not first ballot.

#9 is a good call on that list

[Jcity08]

Isiah has a far more decorated career which helps his case more than Lowry.

That being said, Lowry is going to the Hall since people who've never wom a chip get in, let alone someone who played a huge role in their respective team getting their first ever championship.

[refshateRaps]

IT won 2 NBA Championships as leader of those teams and was Finals MVP in one of them; 3x First Team All NBA, 2x Second Team All NBA; 12x All Star and led the NBA in assists for one year.

IT is also devious, underhanded, a cunning back stabber and an overall jerk. But he is still one of the best players ever. Lowry is not in that league.

Lowrys Defense alone is HOF worthy and IT couldn't walk a day in his shoes on that end of the court

No wants wants to give the guy his due because his stalky and not a typical flash PG. Lowry is on another level

[Lukeem]

Lowry I believe will get into hall of fame. Wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t though.

He’s a significant tier below isiah thomas

Thomas has problems but the fact that he had the ability to take over huge games late in playoffs is something Lowry has not shown.

Lowry could not do what thomas did in 88 finals

Lowry might be a better fit on many teams but his zekes ability to take over will keep him at least a tier above regardless of any statistical examination or manipulation

[jojo152433]

Lowry I believe will get into hall of fame. Wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t though.

He’s a significant tier below isiah thomas

Thomas has problems but the fact that he had the ability to take over huge games late in playoffs is something Lowry has not shown.

Lowry could not do what thomas did in 88 finals

Lowry might be a better fit on many teams but his zekes ability to take over will keep him at least a tier above regardless of any statistical examination or manipulation

Apparently you missed Game 6 of the Finals.

[CoachJReturns]

you can't rely on comparing stats between players from 2 different eras

Isiah has a case in any discussion for best PG's of all time... Lowry not so much

lol I get your point but thats such an exaggeration. Its like saying Clyde is in the discussion for best SG of all time, just no.

Really? I think a lot of fans who have been around long enough to see Clyde would say he was absolutely one of the best shooting guards ever. He got the Blazers to the Finals as the #1.

Clyde was a freaking beast. We cam go by stats or just the eye test. He was a joy to watch even though i was cheering against him and the Blazers in the finals.
Zeke was great too. A magician with the ball and very mich a deserving hall of famer. Lowry has done well for himself but anyone who's watched them both play won't say Lowry was at Zeke's level.

[Kabookalu]

If Lowry wasn't a mental midget in the playoffs he'd be up there with Zeke. If Lowry could take games over (consistently) in the playoffs the way he does in the regular season (during his prime), give me Lowry. Kyle's 2015/16 and 2016/17 years are better than any single individual seasons from Zeke. What made Zeke special was that he wasn't just an elite playmaker, but a guy who could switch from floor general to fearless scorer at the switch of a button. Lowry (regular season) can do this too, while providing all the intangibles and winning plays and elite defense. Zeke had Dumars, Mahorn, Laimbeer, Rodman doing all the "dirty" work for him while he got to dominate the ball (and when I say dirty work here I'm just talking about intangibles as Zeke could be dirty too).

Isiah's the better playmaker, but Kyle was a lot more capable of making high IQ plays without the ball in his hands. If Kyle didn't have these moments where he shrunk he'd be regarded a lot more fondly in these tier lists. His tendency to go from aggressive leader to passive (albeit high impact) role player is quite profound.

[3Si]

Kyle's 2015/16 and 2016/17 years are better than any single individual seasons from Zeke.

1985 Zeke is laughing so hard right now...

[Kabookalu]

Kyle's 2015/16 and 2016/17 years are better than any single individual seasons from Zeke.

1985 Zeke is laughing so hard right now...

Let him.

[Ke-y]

Lowry I believe will get into hall of fame. Wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t though.

He’s a significant tier below isiah thomas

Thomas has problems but the fact that he had the ability to take over huge games late in playoffs is something Lowry has not shown.

Lowry could not do what thomas did in 88 finals

Lowry might be a better fit on many teams but his zekes ability to take over will keep him at least a tier above regardless of any statistical examination or manipulation

Apparently you missed Game 6 of the Finals.

Game 6 is the exception not the rule when it comes to lowry.. Zeke could give you that any given night.. This is why stats can lie.

This is as silly as comparing VC To MJ