To tank or retool?

[tradejosehesux]

This will be a play-in treadmill team for years to come no matter what.

[Steelo Green]

We will tank without trying.

[Merit]

Ultimately this question is "trade Jak or keep him" and then all the moves that go with that.

Personally, I think Scottie is ready now, and if they have a chance to add talent around him they should take it, and in the same vein they should keep Jak.

But Scottie's age does give them a window where they can sign him longer term, take a year or two of not winning much, and try to build up from there. It's just tough, because wait too long and suddenly you are approaching free agency again with the players you have here and either it gets expensive fast or you lose guys. And waiting doesn't guarantee they add useful players through the draft - just gives them an increased chance to do so.

I'd hesitate to trade picks out at this stage - better to keep the powder dry on that front in case there is a big trade to be made later, and to use current picks to add prospects that have a chance to be part of the core moving forward. But using cap room/exceptions to add talent, and retaining the talent they have? I do think that's the way to go.

Assuming we keep Jak, what players would you be targeting with our cap room and exceptions?

[ConSarnit]

Need a third option...

Development year.

No tank. BBQ in full effect and we only add a few pieces around the margins.
Trade Brown for pieces-hopefully a pick.
Draft 2-3 guys and maybe a 4th drafted rookie on 2-way

In total we'll go looking for a backup pg and big man and more two way players. Then Scottie and team will be allowed to win as many games as they can. Which will probably be in the 35-45 win range depending on development/injuries etc.

At that point we'll know if BBQ is the real deal or if big changes needed.

I could see a few issues with this plan. If we are playing 2 rookies + Dick + Agbaji that is not a recipe for success. Teams the play rookies rotation minutes (especially imperfect ones like Agbaji and whoever we likely get at 19 and 31) are going to lose games.

Also, filling out around the BBQ trio doesn’t make a lot of sense to me atm. Let’s say we bring in a couple solid role players and BBQ just plays ok (some improvement but not a huge leap). Then we are a 35 win team and we end up with the 10th pick. So we don’t make the playin and our pick isn’t that good? That’s a wasted season. Why not see where BBQ are this season before bringing in any supporting pieces? We jumped the gun on Poeltl so let’s not make the same mistake twice. If BBQ proves themselves then they’ll be worthy of investing in (let say a mid season trade to improve the team). There’s not much point in eeking out 5-7 extra wins if it doesn’t even get us to the playoffs. Let’s try to get wins through internal development and then look to add supporting pieces.

If we want to play all of the young guys AND try to win that is counterproductive. It might be feasible with 1-2 young players in a rotation but playing 3-4 possible negative impact guys is going to cost us wins. We can create a good developmental environment with lower impact players. Olynyk is a good example of such a player: he is a solid offensive big who can space the floor and pass but his defense won’t win you games. Put in a system, hold guys accountable on defense (even if the talent isn’t enough) and then let them develop in a healthy offensive environment. We’ll lose games but the “reps” our young guys will be getting will be “good” (not some mishmash of players like DET has been rolling out the past 2-3 years).

[ConSarnit]

Ultimately this question is "trade Jak or keep him" and then all the moves that go with that.

Personally, I think Scottie is ready now, and if they have a chance to add talent around him they should take it, and in the same vein they should keep Jak.

But Scottie's age does give them a window where they can sign him longer term, take a year or two of not winning much, and try to build up from there. It's just tough, because wait too long and suddenly you are approaching free agency again with the players you have here and either it gets expensive fast or you lose guys. And waiting doesn't guarantee they add useful players through the draft - just gives them an increased chance to do so.

I'd hesitate to trade picks out at this stage - better to keep the powder dry on that front in case there is a big trade to be made later, and to use current picks to add prospects that have a chance to be part of the core moving forward. But using cap room/exceptions to add talent, and retaining the talent they have? I do think that's the way to go.

Assuming we keep Jak, what players would you be targeting with our cap room and exceptions?

It is tough to come up with a good use of cap space (if we let Brown and Trent walk). That would leave us with just under $25m in space. So who are the guys who are worth more than the MLE but less than $25m?

Monk: pretty solid player. could help but might want a starter role somewhere (he's not a good fit with IQ in a small backcourt)
Hield: similar to Trent, might make sense to just bring Trent back for around the MLE
DLo: blah
Hartenstein: already have his contemporary in Poeltl
Bridges: good player, lotta baggage
Melton: good player, injury questions might push his value to MLE or lower

I think RJ is better suited as a 2 (his bully ball/drive game games works better against smaller players). If Dick is somewhat ready (ie not a complete defensive liability) then both he and RJ are interchangeable at the 2/3. We really need a 3+D sf but we cant afford those guys.

So let's say we re-sign Trent for MLE-ish money (should be a tradable contract). Keep Brown as salary flotsam. That leaves us with the MLE. Maybe we sign someone based on who we draft? For example, say we draft a big at 19, maybe we use part of the MLE on Monte Morris, a perfectly solid backup PG? MLE might be the best way to get a cost controlled contributor. Those $20m guys are risky because it's a salary range where we'd likely have to overpay and they are the type of guy who could get supplanted easily and then you're stuck with an 8-9th man making $20m for 3 years.

IQ
Trent/Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Poeltl

Morris/Brown
Trent/Brown
Dick
Olynyk
#19

Then question marks in Boucher, #31, JFL.

I get that next year we won't have space to bring in anyone above the MLE, it's just that none of the guys currently available for between $13-25m this off-season are all that great of options outside of maybe Monk, who should have multiple suitors.

It's not an easy exercise to make use of our potential cap space. Using cap space for a salary dump + small asset might not be the worst idea. That player might be overpaid for a year or 2 but they still might be rotation worthy. We could even use our MLE to facilitate a salary dump but then we're competing with more teams, which could drive the price down.

[JB7]

Ultimately this question is "trade Jak or keep him" and then all the moves that go with that.

Personally, I think Scottie is ready now, and if they have a chance to add talent around him they should take it, and in the same vein they should keep Jak.

But Scottie's age does give them a window where they can sign him longer term, take a year or two of not winning much, and try to build up from there. It's just tough, because wait too long and suddenly you are approaching free agency again with the players you have here and either it gets expensive fast or you lose guys. And waiting doesn't guarantee they add useful players through the draft - just gives them an increased chance to do so.

I'd hesitate to trade picks out at this stage - better to keep the powder dry on that front in case there is a big trade to be made later, and to use current picks to add prospects that have a chance to be part of the core moving forward. But using cap room/exceptions to add talent, and retaining the talent they have? I do think that's the way to go.

Assuming we keep Jak, what players would you be targeting with our cap room and exceptions?

It is tough to come up with a good use of cap space (if we let Brown and Trent walk). That would leave us with just under $25m in space. So who are the guys who are worth more than the MLE but less than $25m?

Monk: pretty solid player. could help but might want a starter role somewhere (he's not a good fit with IQ in a small backcourt)
Hield: similar to Trent, might make sense to just bring Trent back for around the MLE
DLo: blah
Hartenstein: already have his contemporary in Poeltl
Bridges: good player, lotta baggage
Melton: good player, injury questions might push his value to MLE or lower

I think RJ is better suited as a 2 (his bully ball/drive game games works better against smaller players). If Dick is somewhat ready (ie not a complete defensive liability) then both he and RJ are interchangeable at the 2/3. We really need a 3+D sf but we cant afford those guys.

So let's say we re-sign Trent for MLE-ish money (should be a tradable contract). Keep Brown as salary flotsam. That leaves us with the MLE. Maybe we sign someone based on who we draft? For example, say we draft a big at 19, maybe we use part of the MLE on Monte Morris, a perfectly solid backup PG? MLE might be the best way to get a cost controlled contributor. Those $20m guys are risky because it's a salary range where we'd likely have to overpay and they are the type of guy who could get supplanted easily and then you're stuck with an 8-9th man making $20m for 3 years.

IQ
Trent/Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Poeltl

Morris/Brown
Trent/Brown
Dick
Olynyk
#19

Then question marks in Boucher, #31, JFL.

I get that next year we won't have space to bring in anyone above the MLE, it's just that none of the guys currently available for between $13-25m this off-season are all that great of options outside of maybe Monk, who should have multiple suitors.

It's not an easy exercise to make use of our potential cap space. Using cap space for a salary dump + small asset might not be the worst idea. That player might be overpaid for a year or 2 but they still might be rotation worthy. We could even use our MLE to facilitate a salary dump but then we're competing with more teams, which could drive the price down.

Is the 3&D option Wiggins?

If the Raps do not pick up Brown's option, and renounce GTJ's rights, can they just absorb Wiggins contract into the cap space, freeing up salary room for GSW, or another third team, if it were turned into a 3 team deal?

[ConSarnit]

Assuming we keep Jak, what players would you be targeting with our cap room and exceptions?

It is tough to come up with a good use of cap space (if we let Brown and Trent walk). That would leave us with just under $25m in space. So who are the guys who are worth more than the MLE but less than $25m?

Monk: pretty solid player. could help but might want a starter role somewhere (he's not a good fit with IQ in a small backcourt)
Hield: similar to Trent, might make sense to just bring Trent back for around the MLE
DLo: blah
Hartenstein: already have his contemporary in Poeltl
Bridges: good player, lotta baggage
Melton: good player, injury questions might push his value to MLE or lower

I think RJ is better suited as a 2 (his bully ball/drive game games works better against smaller players). If Dick is somewhat ready (ie not a complete defensive liability) then both he and RJ are interchangeable at the 2/3. We really need a 3+D sf but we cant afford those guys.

So let's say we re-sign Trent for MLE-ish money (should be a tradable contract). Keep Brown as salary flotsam. That leaves us with the MLE. Maybe we sign someone based on who we draft? For example, say we draft a big at 19, maybe we use part of the MLE on Monte Morris, a perfectly solid backup PG? MLE might be the best way to get a cost controlled contributor. Those $20m guys are risky because it's a salary range where we'd likely have to overpay and they are the type of guy who could get supplanted easily and then you're stuck with an 8-9th man making $20m for 3 years.

IQ
Trent/Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Poeltl

Morris/Brown
Trent/Brown
Dick
Olynyk
#19

Then question marks in Boucher, #31, JFL.

I get that next year we won't have space to bring in anyone above the MLE, it's just that none of the guys currently available for between $13-25m this off-season are all that great of options outside of maybe Monk, who should have multiple suitors.

It's not an easy exercise to make use of our potential cap space. Using cap space for a salary dump + small asset might not be the worst idea. That player might be overpaid for a year or 2 but they still might be rotation worthy. We could even use our MLE to facilitate a salary dump but then we're competing with more teams, which could drive the price down.

Is the 3&D option Wiggins?

If the Raps do not pick up Brown's option, and renounce GTJ's rights, can they just absorb Wiggins contract into the cap space, freeing up salary room for GSW, or another third team, if it were turned into a 3 team deal?

Personally, I don't really trust Wiggins. GSW got him to play hard for what, 1.5 years? And that was under the leadership of Curry, Draymond and Kerr. We don't have that structure in place and I don't trust him to not just check out. I also don't really see why GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing. If they need salary relief they can just cut CP3 and they'll be $30m under the cap. Even if GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing and cuts CP3 they can only get to about $23m in cap space, which doesn't really get them very far. And if GSW is willing to dump Wiggins for nothing (3+D wings making $26m are usually valuable) then that sort of tells you what they really think of Wiggins and it means they probably view him as a bad contract.

I'm also not really a fan of win-now moves for our team. I don't even think Wiggins guarantees we make the play-in. I'd rather draft some 3+D project, give Dick more run or just play Barrett at the 3. I'm lower on this team for next year than most so chasing a few more wins in pursuit of the play-in doesn't make much sense to me (I'd love to be wrong if Barnes and IQ both make big leaps and we're looking like a team with a good future). I think we need more high end talent and that's probably best acquired in the draft (which is supposed to be strong).

[dhackett1565]

Ultimately this question is "trade Jak or keep him" and then all the moves that go with that.

Personally, I think Scottie is ready now, and if they have a chance to add talent around him they should take it, and in the same vein they should keep Jak.

But Scottie's age does give them a window where they can sign him longer term, take a year or two of not winning much, and try to build up from there. It's just tough, because wait too long and suddenly you are approaching free agency again with the players you have here and either it gets expensive fast or you lose guys. And waiting doesn't guarantee they add useful players through the draft - just gives them an increased chance to do so.

I'd hesitate to trade picks out at this stage - better to keep the powder dry on that front in case there is a big trade to be made later, and to use current picks to add prospects that have a chance to be part of the core moving forward. But using cap room/exceptions to add talent, and retaining the talent they have? I do think that's the way to go.

Assuming we keep Jak, what players would you be targeting with our cap room and exceptions?

It is tough to come up with a good use of cap space (if we let Brown and Trent walk). That would leave us with just under $25m in space. So who are the guys who are worth more than the MLE but less than $25m?

Monk: pretty solid player. could help but might want a starter role somewhere (he's not a good fit with IQ in a small backcourt)
Hield: similar to Trent, might make sense to just bring Trent back for around the MLE
DLo: blah
Hartenstein: already have his contemporary in Poeltl
Bridges: good player, lotta baggage
Melton: good player, injury questions might push his value to MLE or lower

I think RJ is better suited as a 2 (his bully ball/drive game games works better against smaller players). If Dick is somewhat ready (ie not a complete defensive liability) then both he and RJ are interchangeable at the 2/3. We really need a 3+D sf but we cant afford those guys.

So let's say we re-sign Trent for MLE-ish money (should be a tradable contract). Keep Brown as salary flotsam. That leaves us with the MLE. Maybe we sign someone based on who we draft? For example, say we draft a big at 19, maybe we use part of the MLE on Monte Morris, a perfectly solid backup PG? MLE might be the best way to get a cost controlled contributor. Those $20m guys are risky because it's a salary range where we'd likely have to overpay and they are the type of guy who could get supplanted easily and then you're stuck with an 8-9th man making $20m for 3 years.

IQ
Trent/Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Poeltl

Morris/Brown
Trent/Brown
Dick
Olynyk
#19

Then question marks in Boucher, #31, JFL.

I get that next year we won't have space to bring in anyone above the MLE, it's just that none of the guys currently available for between $13-25m this off-season are all that great of options outside of maybe Monk, who should have multiple suitors.

It's not an easy exercise to make use of our potential cap space. Using cap space for a salary dump + small asset might not be the worst idea. That player might be overpaid for a year or 2 but they still might be rotation worthy. We could even use our MLE to facilitate a salary dump but then we're competing with more teams, which could drive the price down.

First off, I've got them up near 29M or so in cap room if they let GTJ walk and opt out of Bruce's deal.

Second, what they do with cap space/exceptions is up for some debate.

Cap room, maybe you target a scoring guard like Monk with a 20M+ offer. Or, if you find a deal nice enough for Jak, you swap him for a rotation wing and a pick and try to grab Claxton with the cap room to replace him. You can always use the cap room to facilitate a trade, of course, endless possibilities there.

My personal expectation is if they keep Jak and try to win, they also keep GTJ and try to find a Brown trade at the draft. Whatever salary comes back leaves them with the MLE to add some depth and likely represents some depth in and of itself.

If they can't find a taker at the draft, I'd lean to opting out of Brown's deal, keeping GTJ with a >MLE offer, and then using the remaining >MLE in cap room they have to outbid the MLE market for another quality depth piece. Keep future picks intact, build up depth, and try to have a bunch of mid-sized contracts of varying term on the books to potentially be used in trade. You then also have the room MLE to add a player up to about 8M on a deal up to 2 years in length, which could be used to re-sign some fringe guys or grab someone who misses out on the MLE market.

The really fun option is to see if you can find a taker for Chris Boucher's 10.8M deal, maybe into another team's MLE (which can be used in a trade as of July), and go all out with a 40M+ offer for OG to come back, which would be hilarious. But isn't realistic, just fun to think about.

[dhackett1565]

Is the 3&D option Wiggins?

If the Raps do not pick up Brown's option, and renounce GTJ's rights, can they just absorb Wiggins contract into the cap space, freeing up salary room for GSW, or another third team, if it were turned into a 3 team deal?

Even if the cap room is not enough to absorb Wiggins outright (I have it at 29M, so it would indeed be), the Raps could send out a small salary in such a deal to make it work out, like McDaniels or Boucher, both of whom are expiring. So very easy to make a deal work whatever the exact amount of cap room ends up at, so long as it is "quite a bit" as it projects to be. Opt in to Brown's deal and never mind. Keep Gary and it gets trickier but not impossible (for example, say a deal starting at 15M for Gary would leave you 15M in room, so McDaniels and Boucher heading the other way would let you take in ~30M in salary).

[Merit]

Ultimately this question is "trade Jak or keep him" and then all the moves that go with that.

Personally, I think Scottie is ready now, and if they have a chance to add talent around him they should take it, and in the same vein they should keep Jak.

But Scottie's age does give them a window where they can sign him longer term, take a year or two of not winning much, and try to build up from there. It's just tough, because wait too long and suddenly you are approaching free agency again with the players you have here and either it gets expensive fast or you lose guys. And waiting doesn't guarantee they add useful players through the draft - just gives them an increased chance to do so.

I'd hesitate to trade picks out at this stage - better to keep the powder dry on that front in case there is a big trade to be made later, and to use current picks to add prospects that have a chance to be part of the core moving forward. But using cap room/exceptions to add talent, and retaining the talent they have? I do think that's the way to go.

Assuming we keep Jak, what players would you be targeting with our cap room and exceptions?

It is tough to come up with a good use of cap space (if we let Brown and Trent walk). That would leave us with just under $25m in space. So who are the guys who are worth more than the MLE but less than $25m?

Monk: pretty solid player. could help but might want a starter role somewhere (he's not a good fit with IQ in a small backcourt)
Hield: similar to Trent, might make sense to just bring Trent back for around the MLE
DLo: blah
Hartenstein: already have his contemporary in Poeltl
Bridges: good player, lotta baggage
Melton: good player, injury questions might push his value to MLE or lower

I think RJ is better suited as a 2 (his bully ball/drive game games works better against smaller players). If Dick is somewhat ready (ie not a complete defensive liability) then both he and RJ are interchangeable at the 2/3. We really need a 3+D sf but we cant afford those guys.

So let's say we re-sign Trent for MLE-ish money (should be a tradable contract). Keep Brown as salary flotsam. That leaves us with the MLE. Maybe we sign someone based on who we draft? For example, say we draft a big at 19, maybe we use part of the MLE on Monte Morris, a perfectly solid backup PG? MLE might be the best way to get a cost controlled contributor. Those $20m guys are risky because it's a salary range where we'd likely have to overpay and they are the type of guy who could get supplanted easily and then you're stuck with an 8-9th man making $20m for 3 years.

IQ
Trent/Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Poeltl

Morris/Brown
Trent/Brown
Dick
Olynyk
#19

Then question marks in Boucher, #31, JFL.

I get that next year we won't have space to bring in anyone above the MLE, it's just that none of the guys currently available for between $13-25m this off-season are all that great of options outside of maybe Monk, who should have multiple suitors.

It's not an easy exercise to make use of our potential cap space. Using cap space for a salary dump + small asset might not be the worst idea. That player might be overpaid for a year or 2 but they still might be rotation worthy. We could even use our MLE to facilitate a salary dump but then we're competing with more teams, which could drive the price down.

Agreed that RJ at the 2 makes the most sense. He seems to have enough foot speed to stay there so it’s a plus given that he has size for the position.

Getting Melton at an MLE rate is a dream signing for me. He’d make Brown redundant. If we can get both Trent and Melton? Amazing! I doubt that happens though - and I choose Melton over Gary.

That brings me back to finding a solid wing who can shoot and defend via Bruce Brown’s contract+. That would leave us with a roster of:

IQ/Melton
RJ/
? in trade/Gradey
Scottie/
Jak/Kelly

Plus Brown, Ochai, Boucher, McDaniels, 19, 31

Leading back, as always, to Wiggins/Lavine/Derrick Jones etc.

Brown + McDaniels + 31 for Wiggins and Moody works. Kills two birds with one stone.

IQ/Melton
RJ/Moody
Wiggins/Gradey
Scottie/Kelly
Jak/(Pick)

Leaves us the 19, Boucher and Ochai to use in another trade or we have a bench mob redux.

Alternatively, we would require Brown/Boucher and McDaniels were we to trade for Lavine. We’d need something back as well, but we’d free up roster space for our draft picks.

[Merit]

It is tough to come up with a good use of cap space (if we let Brown and Trent walk). That would leave us with just under $25m in space. So who are the guys who are worth more than the MLE but less than $25m?

Monk: pretty solid player. could help but might want a starter role somewhere (he's not a good fit with IQ in a small backcourt)
Hield: similar to Trent, might make sense to just bring Trent back for around the MLE
DLo: blah
Hartenstein: already have his contemporary in Poeltl
Bridges: good player, lotta baggage
Melton: good player, injury questions might push his value to MLE or lower

I think RJ is better suited as a 2 (his bully ball/drive game games works better against smaller players). If Dick is somewhat ready (ie not a complete defensive liability) then both he and RJ are interchangeable at the 2/3. We really need a 3+D sf but we cant afford those guys.

So let's say we re-sign Trent for MLE-ish money (should be a tradable contract). Keep Brown as salary flotsam. That leaves us with the MLE. Maybe we sign someone based on who we draft? For example, say we draft a big at 19, maybe we use part of the MLE on Monte Morris, a perfectly solid backup PG? MLE might be the best way to get a cost controlled contributor. Those $20m guys are risky because it's a salary range where we'd likely have to overpay and they are the type of guy who could get supplanted easily and then you're stuck with an 8-9th man making $20m for 3 years.

IQ
Trent/Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Poeltl

Morris/Brown
Trent/Brown
Dick
Olynyk
#19

Then question marks in Boucher, #31, JFL.

I get that next year we won't have space to bring in anyone above the MLE, it's just that none of the guys currently available for between $13-25m this off-season are all that great of options outside of maybe Monk, who should have multiple suitors.

It's not an easy exercise to make use of our potential cap space. Using cap space for a salary dump + small asset might not be the worst idea. That player might be overpaid for a year or 2 but they still might be rotation worthy. We could even use our MLE to facilitate a salary dump but then we're competing with more teams, which could drive the price down.

Is the 3&D option Wiggins?

If the Raps do not pick up Brown's option, and renounce GTJ's rights, can they just absorb Wiggins contract into the cap space, freeing up salary room for GSW, or another third team, if it were turned into a 3 team deal?

Personally, I don't really trust Wiggins. GSW got him to play hard for what, 1.5 years? And that was under the leadership of Curry, Draymond and Kerr. We don't have that structure in place and I don't trust him to not just check out. I also don't really see why GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing. If they need salary relief they can just cut CP3 and they'll be $30m under the cap. Even if GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing and cuts CP3 they can only get to about $23m in cap space, which doesn't really get them very far. And if GSW is willing to dump Wiggins for nothing (3+D wings making $26m are usually valuable) then that sort of tells you what they really think of Wiggins and it means they probably view him as a bad contract.

I'm also not really a fan of win-now moves for our team. I don't even think Wiggins guarantees we make the play-in. I'd rather draft some 3+D project, give Dick more run or just play Barrett at the 3. I'm lower on this team for next year than most so chasing a few more wins in pursuit of the play-in doesn't make much sense to me (I'd love to be wrong if Barnes and IQ both make big leaps and we're looking like a team with a good future). I think we need more high end talent and that's probably best acquired in the draft (which is supposed to be strong).

I understand the logic given you’re lower on the raps next year. If Masai can reclaim Lowry - imagine what happens if Wigs decides to turn his brain on to match his evident gifts?

It’s one of those swings for high end talent (imo Wiggins) that makes sense for both teams. Brown and Boucher (or McDaniels) are useful pieces in that they shuffle the decks for two teams in need of a narrative shift. Gsw banks on Kuminga and Podz, we bank on Wigs.

I would trade Brown and McDaniels for Wiggins alone. No picks coming back. That frees up roster space and makes it hard for GSW not to bite.

Iq/MLE (Melton)
Rj/Gradey
Wigs/Ochai
Scottie/Kelly
Jak/#19 (Edey)/Boucher

We can explore trades for Boucher at the deadline.

[Merit]

Assuming we keep Jak, what players would you be targeting with our cap room and exceptions?

It is tough to come up with a good use of cap space (if we let Brown and Trent walk). That would leave us with just under $25m in space. So who are the guys who are worth more than the MLE but less than $25m?

Monk: pretty solid player. could help but might want a starter role somewhere (he's not a good fit with IQ in a small backcourt)
Hield: similar to Trent, might make sense to just bring Trent back for around the MLE
DLo: blah
Hartenstein: already have his contemporary in Poeltl
Bridges: good player, lotta baggage
Melton: good player, injury questions might push his value to MLE or lower

I think RJ is better suited as a 2 (his bully ball/drive game games works better against smaller players). If Dick is somewhat ready (ie not a complete defensive liability) then both he and RJ are interchangeable at the 2/3. We really need a 3+D sf but we cant afford those guys.

So let's say we re-sign Trent for MLE-ish money (should be a tradable contract). Keep Brown as salary flotsam. That leaves us with the MLE. Maybe we sign someone based on who we draft? For example, say we draft a big at 19, maybe we use part of the MLE on Monte Morris, a perfectly solid backup PG? MLE might be the best way to get a cost controlled contributor. Those $20m guys are risky because it's a salary range where we'd likely have to overpay and they are the type of guy who could get supplanted easily and then you're stuck with an 8-9th man making $20m for 3 years.

IQ
Trent/Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Poeltl

Morris/Brown
Trent/Brown
Dick
Olynyk
#19

Then question marks in Boucher, #31, JFL.

I get that next year we won't have space to bring in anyone above the MLE, it's just that none of the guys currently available for between $13-25m this off-season are all that great of options outside of maybe Monk, who should have multiple suitors.

It's not an easy exercise to make use of our potential cap space. Using cap space for a salary dump + small asset might not be the worst idea. That player might be overpaid for a year or 2 but they still might be rotation worthy. We could even use our MLE to facilitate a salary dump but then we're competing with more teams, which could drive the price down.

First off, I've got them up near 29M or so in cap room if they let GTJ walk and opt out of Bruce's deal.

Second, what they do with cap space/exceptions is up for some debate.

Cap room, maybe you target a scoring guard like Monk with a 20M+ offer. Or, if you find a deal nice enough for Jak, you swap him for a rotation wing and a pick and try to grab Claxton with the cap room to replace him. You can always use the cap room to facilitate a trade, of course, endless possibilities there.

My personal expectation is if they keep Jak and try to win, they also keep GTJ and try to find a Brown trade at the draft. Whatever salary comes back leaves them with the MLE to add some depth and likely represents some depth in and of itself.

If they can't find a taker at the draft, I'd lean to opting out of Brown's deal, keeping GTJ with a >MLE offer, and then using the remaining >MLE in cap room they have to outbid the MLE market for another quality depth piece. Keep future picks intact, build up depth, and try to have a bunch of mid-sized contracts of varying term on the books to potentially be used in trade. You then also have the room MLE to add a player up to about 8M on a deal up to 2 years in length, which could be used to re-sign some fringe guys or grab someone who misses out on the MLE market.

The really fun option is to see if you can find a taker for Chris Boucher's 10.8M deal, maybe into another team's MLE (which can be used in a trade as of July), and go all out with a 40M+ offer for OG to come back, which would be hilarious. But isn't realistic, just fun to think about.

Interesting! Thanks for that wrinkle of possibility.

[720]

Tanking is the only answer

[ArthurVandelay]

We will tank without trying.

Yup

I said back at the start of this thread it is a trick question

Raptors, as they are currently constructed, just aren’t good enough. They are going to be 27-32 win bad without even trying.

Some crazy lopsided trades, massive draft home runs, and insane current player development will ALL be needed to change my opinion on that.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

The real question is who will become the "Del_Abbot" of the Retool/REBIULD WORLD ORDER?

Me?

I hardly think so. That wouldn't do at all.

It doesn't seem like any of the above posters are up for the job.

[JB7]

It is tough to come up with a good use of cap space (if we let Brown and Trent walk). That would leave us with just under $25m in space. So who are the guys who are worth more than the MLE but less than $25m?

Monk: pretty solid player. could help but might want a starter role somewhere (he's not a good fit with IQ in a small backcourt)
Hield: similar to Trent, might make sense to just bring Trent back for around the MLE
DLo: blah
Hartenstein: already have his contemporary in Poeltl
Bridges: good player, lotta baggage
Melton: good player, injury questions might push his value to MLE or lower

I think RJ is better suited as a 2 (his bully ball/drive game games works better against smaller players). If Dick is somewhat ready (ie not a complete defensive liability) then both he and RJ are interchangeable at the 2/3. We really need a 3+D sf but we cant afford those guys.

So let's say we re-sign Trent for MLE-ish money (should be a tradable contract). Keep Brown as salary flotsam. That leaves us with the MLE. Maybe we sign someone based on who we draft? For example, say we draft a big at 19, maybe we use part of the MLE on Monte Morris, a perfectly solid backup PG? MLE might be the best way to get a cost controlled contributor. Those $20m guys are risky because it's a salary range where we'd likely have to overpay and they are the type of guy who could get supplanted easily and then you're stuck with an 8-9th man making $20m for 3 years.

IQ
Trent/Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Poeltl

Morris/Brown
Trent/Brown
Dick
Olynyk
#19

Then question marks in Boucher, #31, JFL.

I get that next year we won't have space to bring in anyone above the MLE, it's just that none of the guys currently available for between $13-25m this off-season are all that great of options outside of maybe Monk, who should have multiple suitors.

It's not an easy exercise to make use of our potential cap space. Using cap space for a salary dump + small asset might not be the worst idea. That player might be overpaid for a year or 2 but they still might be rotation worthy. We could even use our MLE to facilitate a salary dump but then we're competing with more teams, which could drive the price down.

Is the 3&D option Wiggins?

If the Raps do not pick up Brown's option, and renounce GTJ's rights, can they just absorb Wiggins contract into the cap space, freeing up salary room for GSW, or another third team, if it were turned into a 3 team deal?

Personally, I don't really trust Wiggins. GSW got him to play hard for what, 1.5 years? And that was under the leadership of Curry, Draymond and Kerr. We don't have that structure in place and I don't trust him to not just check out. I also don't really see why GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing. If they need salary relief they can just cut CP3 and they'll be $30m under the cap. Even if GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing and cuts CP3 they can only get to about $23m in cap space, which doesn't really get them very far. And if GSW is willing to dump Wiggins for nothing (3+D wings making $26m are usually valuable) then that sort of tells you what they really think of Wiggins and it means they probably view him as a bad contract.

I'm also not really a fan of win-now moves for our team. I don't even think Wiggins guarantees we make the play-in. I'd rather draft some 3+D project, give Dick more run or just play Barrett at the 3. I'm lower on this team for next year than most so chasing a few more wins in pursuit of the play-in doesn't make much sense to me (I'd love to be wrong if Barnes and IQ both make big leaps and we're looking like a team with a good future). I think we need more high end talent and that's probably best acquired in the draft (which is supposed to be strong).

GSW needed Wiggins at his playoff best, to try and compete for another championship. Clearly that is not a level Wiggins can sustain for long periods of time. But I don’t think the Raps are needing that. They just need a competent 3&D wing to give Gradey and Ochai time to develop.

I agree that GSW does value Wiggins. They wouldn’t have given him that contract if they didn’t. They clearly needed him playing at a high level for them to compete. But they cannot trust him. He also doesn’t have a dominant type of personality. You can see when Kuminga started demanding more minutes and touches, it seemed like Wiggins was happy to take a step back.

I think the addition of Wiggins is just to help build a decent starting lineup, so that BBQ is better supported.

One interesting twist on a trade I was thinking about was if GSW does try to acquire Towns, if Minny tries to move off his salary. Outside of the Knicks, the best place for Towns might be GSW. He could be the Warriors next Twolves reclamation project. He would essentially provide them with the ideal role they had with Durant. Floor spacing big.

Minny would clearly not want Wiggins back, so if the Raps could clear the cap space, taking on Wiggins deal could actually help the TWolves clear salary, while also adding a young player like Kuminga.

Something like:
- Towns to GSW
- Wiggins to Raps (Raps don’t pick up BB option and renounce GTJ)
- Kuminga, Looney, GP2 and GSW pick(s) to Minny

[ConSarnit]

Is the 3&D option Wiggins?

If the Raps do not pick up Brown's option, and renounce GTJ's rights, can they just absorb Wiggins contract into the cap space, freeing up salary room for GSW, or another third team, if it were turned into a 3 team deal?

Personally, I don't really trust Wiggins. GSW got him to play hard for what, 1.5 years? And that was under the leadership of Curry, Draymond and Kerr. We don't have that structure in place and I don't trust him to not just check out. I also don't really see why GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing. If they need salary relief they can just cut CP3 and they'll be $30m under the cap. Even if GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing and cuts CP3 they can only get to about $23m in cap space, which doesn't really get them very far. And if GSW is willing to dump Wiggins for nothing (3+D wings making $26m are usually valuable) then that sort of tells you what they really think of Wiggins and it means they probably view him as a bad contract.

I'm also not really a fan of win-now moves for our team. I don't even think Wiggins guarantees we make the play-in. I'd rather draft some 3+D project, give Dick more run or just play Barrett at the 3. I'm lower on this team for next year than most so chasing a few more wins in pursuit of the play-in doesn't make much sense to me (I'd love to be wrong if Barnes and IQ both make big leaps and we're looking like a team with a good future). I think we need more high end talent and that's probably best acquired in the draft (which is supposed to be strong).

I understand the logic given you’re lower on the raps next year. If Masai can reclaim Lowry - imagine what happens if Wigs decides to turn his brain on to match his evident gifts?

It’s one of those swings for high end talent (imo Wiggins) that makes sense for both teams. Brown and Boucher (or McDaniels) are useful pieces in that they shuffle the decks for two teams in need of a narrative shift. Gsw banks on Kuminga and Podz, we bank on Wigs.

I would trade Brown and McDaniels for Wiggins alone. No picks coming back. That frees up roster space and makes it hard for GSW not to bite.

Iq/MLE (Melton)
Rj/Gradey
Wigs/Ochai
Scottie/Kelly
Jak/#19 (Edey)/Boucher

We can explore trades for Boucher at the deadline.

Wiggins couldn’t keep his brain turned on while playing with some of the greatest players of all-time. Bringing him here to what stands to be a middling team seems like a bad idea. And to what end? So we win 36 games next year and maybe make the play in?

What is the point of win now moves when we have no idea how good the core may or may not be? If Barnes and IQ are the neo-Siakam and FVV (impact-wise) were still going to need high end talent. We should not be making any win now moves until we see what the BBQ core looks like.

I also don’t really know why GSW is giving away Wiggins. Brown and McDaniels don’t save them any money next year and probably make them a worse team. If they need to clear money they can waive CP3 and his $30m. If they are willing to dump Wiggins that should be enough warning about what they actually think about Wiggins considering how in demand legit 3+D wings are. If GSW thinks Wiggins is good then they should keep him because his archetype is valuable. If they think he is a bad contract why are we taking him on for free?

I have no desire to make moves that put us in the 30-40 win range. We either need to win 25 games next year or 40+ games next year on the backs of Barnes and IQ’s development. Anything in the middle doesn’t make much sense to me.

[ConSarnit]

Is the 3&D option Wiggins?

If the Raps do not pick up Brown's option, and renounce GTJ's rights, can they just absorb Wiggins contract into the cap space, freeing up salary room for GSW, or another third team, if it were turned into a 3 team deal?

Personally, I don't really trust Wiggins. GSW got him to play hard for what, 1.5 years? And that was under the leadership of Curry, Draymond and Kerr. We don't have that structure in place and I don't trust him to not just check out. I also don't really see why GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing. If they need salary relief they can just cut CP3 and they'll be $30m under the cap. Even if GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing and cuts CP3 they can only get to about $23m in cap space, which doesn't really get them very far. And if GSW is willing to dump Wiggins for nothing (3+D wings making $26m are usually valuable) then that sort of tells you what they really think of Wiggins and it means they probably view him as a bad contract.

I'm also not really a fan of win-now moves for our team. I don't even think Wiggins guarantees we make the play-in. I'd rather draft some 3+D project, give Dick more run or just play Barrett at the 3. I'm lower on this team for next year than most so chasing a few more wins in pursuit of the play-in doesn't make much sense to me (I'd love to be wrong if Barnes and IQ both make big leaps and we're looking like a team with a good future). I think we need more high end talent and that's probably best acquired in the draft (which is supposed to be strong).

GSW needed Wiggins at his playoff best, to try and compete for another championship. Clearly that is not a level Wiggins can sustain for long periods of time. But I don’t think the Raps are needing that. They just need a competent 3&D wing to give Gradey and Ochai time to develop.

I agree that GSW does value Wiggins. They wouldn’t have given him that contract if they didn’t. They clearly needed him playing at a high level for them to compete. But they cannot trust him. He also doesn’t have a dominant type of personality. You can see when Kuminga started demanding more minutes and touches, it seemed like Wiggins was happy to take a step back.

I think the addition of Wiggins is just to help build a decent starting lineup, so that BBQ is better supported.

One interesting twist on a trade I was thinking about was if GSW does try to acquire Towns, if Minny tries to move off his salary. Outside of the Knicks, the best place for Towns might be GSW. He could be the Warriors next Twolves reclamation project. He would essentially provide them with the ideal role they had with Durant. Floor spacing big.

Minny would clearly not want Wiggins back, so if the Raps could clear the cap space, taking on Wiggins deal could actually help the TWolves clear salary, while also adding a young player like Kuminga.

Something like:
- Towns to GSW
- Wiggins to Raps (Raps don’t pick up BB option and renounce GTJ)
- Kuminga, Looney, GP2 and GSW pick(s) to Minny

Why are we in a rush to support the starting lineup when they haven’t proven anything? Until we have confirmed that BBQ isn’t just 1 all-star (Barnes) and 2 solid role players (IQ and RJ) what’s the point of building a 38 win team? I’d say there some solid chance this core is of the level of FVV/OG/Siakam and that’s not a contender.

Make BBQ prove it before we actually invest in support players. Let’s not spin our wheels.

[JB7]

Personally, I don't really trust Wiggins. GSW got him to play hard for what, 1.5 years? And that was under the leadership of Curry, Draymond and Kerr. We don't have that structure in place and I don't trust him to not just check out. I also don't really see why GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing. If they need salary relief they can just cut CP3 and they'll be $30m under the cap. Even if GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing and cuts CP3 they can only get to about $23m in cap space, which doesn't really get them very far. And if GSW is willing to dump Wiggins for nothing (3+D wings making $26m are usually valuable) then that sort of tells you what they really think of Wiggins and it means they probably view him as a bad contract.

I'm also not really a fan of win-now moves for our team. I don't even think Wiggins guarantees we make the play-in. I'd rather draft some 3+D project, give Dick more run or just play Barrett at the 3. I'm lower on this team for next year than most so chasing a few more wins in pursuit of the play-in doesn't make much sense to me (I'd love to be wrong if Barnes and IQ both make big leaps and we're looking like a team with a good future). I think we need more high end talent and that's probably best acquired in the draft (which is supposed to be strong).

GSW needed Wiggins at his playoff best, to try and compete for another championship. Clearly that is not a level Wiggins can sustain for long periods of time. But I don’t think the Raps are needing that. They just need a competent 3&D wing to give Gradey and Ochai time to develop.

I agree that GSW does value Wiggins. They wouldn’t have given him that contract if they didn’t. They clearly needed him playing at a high level for them to compete. But they cannot trust him. He also doesn’t have a dominant type of personality. You can see when Kuminga started demanding more minutes and touches, it seemed like Wiggins was happy to take a step back.

I think the addition of Wiggins is just to help build a decent starting lineup, so that BBQ is better supported.

One interesting twist on a trade I was thinking about was if GSW does try to acquire Towns, if Minny tries to move off his salary. Outside of the Knicks, the best place for Towns might be GSW. He could be the Warriors next Twolves reclamation project. He would essentially provide them with the ideal role they had with Durant. Floor spacing big.

Minny would clearly not want Wiggins back, so if the Raps could clear the cap space, taking on Wiggins deal could actually help the TWolves clear salary, while also adding a young player like Kuminga.

Something like:
- Towns to GSW
- Wiggins to Raps (Raps don’t pick up BB option and renounce GTJ)
- Kuminga, Looney, GP2 and GSW pick(s) to Minny

Why are we in a rush to support the starting lineup when they haven’t proven anything? Until we have confirmed that BBQ isn’t just 1 all-star (Barnes) and 2 solid role players (IQ and RJ) what’s the point of building a 38 win team? I’d say there some solid chance this core is of the level of FVV/OG/Siakam and that’s not a contender.

Make BBQ prove it before we actually invest in support players. Let’s not spin our wheels.

If all the team has is BBQ, they will end up at the bottom of the league, and that type of losing is not good for the young core. A few veteran complementary pieces like Yak, Wiggins and say Lowry would provide both leadership and support in attaining some wins.

[Merit]

Personally, I don't really trust Wiggins. GSW got him to play hard for what, 1.5 years? And that was under the leadership of Curry, Draymond and Kerr. We don't have that structure in place and I don't trust him to not just check out. I also don't really see why GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing. If they need salary relief they can just cut CP3 and they'll be $30m under the cap. Even if GSW dumps Wiggins for nothing and cuts CP3 they can only get to about $23m in cap space, which doesn't really get them very far. And if GSW is willing to dump Wiggins for nothing (3+D wings making $26m are usually valuable) then that sort of tells you what they really think of Wiggins and it means they probably view him as a bad contract.

I'm also not really a fan of win-now moves for our team. I don't even think Wiggins guarantees we make the play-in. I'd rather draft some 3+D project, give Dick more run or just play Barrett at the 3. I'm lower on this team for next year than most so chasing a few more wins in pursuit of the play-in doesn't make much sense to me (I'd love to be wrong if Barnes and IQ both make big leaps and we're looking like a team with a good future). I think we need more high end talent and that's probably best acquired in the draft (which is supposed to be strong).

I understand the logic given you’re lower on the raps next year. If Masai can reclaim Lowry - imagine what happens if Wigs decides to turn his brain on to match his evident gifts?

It’s one of those swings for high end talent (imo Wiggins) that makes sense for both teams. Brown and Boucher (or McDaniels) are useful pieces in that they shuffle the decks for two teams in need of a narrative shift. Gsw banks on Kuminga and Podz, we bank on Wigs.

I would trade Brown and McDaniels for Wiggins alone. No picks coming back. That frees up roster space and makes it hard for GSW not to bite.

Iq/MLE (Melton)
Rj/Gradey
Wigs/Ochai
Scottie/Kelly
Jak/#19 (Edey)/Boucher

We can explore trades for Boucher at the deadline.

Wiggins couldn’t keep his brain turned on while playing with some of the greatest players of all-time. Bringing him here to what stands to be a middling team seems like a bad idea. And to what end? So we win 36 games next year and maybe make the play in?

What is the point of win now moves when we have no idea how good the core may or may not be? If Barnes and IQ are the neo-Siakam and FVV (impact-wise) were still going to need high end talent. We should not be making any win now moves until we see what the BBQ core looks like.

I also don’t really know why GSW is giving away Wiggins. Brown and McDaniels don’t save them any money next year and probably make them a worse team. If they need to clear money they can waive CP3 and his $30m. If they are willing to dump Wiggins that should be enough warning about what they actually think about Wiggins considering how in demand legit 3+D wings are. If GSW thinks Wiggins is good then they should keep him because his archetype is valuable. If they think he is a bad contract why are we taking him on for free?

I have no desire to make moves that put us in the 30-40 win range. We either need to win 25 games next year or 40+ games next year on the backs of Barnes and IQ’s development. Anything in the middle doesn’t make much sense to me.

Gsw moves on from Wiggins to give their younger options a chance and to build depth on their team. They get out from his term. As you suggest, they also move on from CP3. Both those moves can happen. Waiving CP3 makes Brown a more valuable piece for GSW anyway - and arguably a better fit on their roster.

There’s something to be said for a fresh start. Yes, Wiggins’ archetype is valuable. It’s why we’re interested. Yes, Wiggins has flaws. It’s why he’s available.

As for adding Wiggins and why I would do this now - it’s for the term on his contract (cost certainty in a rising cap), his redemption arc story (elite talent, less than elite drive), his skillset/position (big wing with bounce), and because he’s Canadian.

If the BBQ core is as you suggest similar to Fred and Pascal, the hope is that the system and player development make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. The trades I’ve suggested don’t take away from player development or MLE signings. Heck, it’s even possible to absorb Wigs contract (or part of it) if we have cap space eg. by relinquishing Gary’s cap hold.

Wiggins isn’t the only option. We could do something similar via signing say Derrick Jones Jr. with cap space. We could also do this through drafting well. We can also potentially do both - depending on who’s available with the MLE and BAE. For me, a sure thing is always better than a crapshoot in the draft along with the developmental timeline that accompanies a young player.