Regrading the Pascal Trade

[God Squad]

I've been pretty critical of many of the trades Bob-Sai has done. But since the infusion of young talent, BBIQ, and the addition of a top 8 pick this year.

I'm beginning to see the picture they're trying to paint. It's not the way I would have built the team(I'd tank-tank), but I see the vision and get it. We'll see next year if the results match.

[Indeed]

The front office has also improved a lot the bench. When I think of the FVV / Siakam / Scottie / OG team, I think of 4 guys pretty much running a marathon every game. Because of Nurse's minutes and because they really had no bench. It was exhausting even to watch.

It was improved through mid firsts and 2nds. It's not impossible to think we could have done the same before. This roster isn't as good but the ceiling is higher. Barnes has a high potential than Siakam, Ingram is better than OG on offense, and IQ is better than Fred on offense. We're going to have to hope there is crazy improvement.

You have a point, it just took time to rebuild the bench. The front office didn't necessarily have that time, with Siakam and OG being free agents. Also, I think the Barnes / Siakam / FVV / OG combo was less than the sum of their parts. It just didn't quite work out together. I think the current core has more potential to work out well together, but also, having a bench will help immensely.

Our bench was due to our money locked up for Trent, Young, Porter. The biggest issue was backup guard, and perhaps nothing wrong playing Flynn like we are playing Dick.

Can we have a better bench with Siakam / VanVleet / Anunoby, yes, but we just didn't build around them. Bunch of overpaid bench. The issue wasn't the previous core, the issue was front office.

[MoneyBall]

Oh no you’re not negative. I’m sure everyone on here would agree you’re one of the most positive and optimistic people on this board.

Also I never said we have our bench shored up not sure where you got that from lol.

I'm critical of stupid moves and stupid posts, I applaud good moves and thought out opinions. Just because I don't swallow every pile of crap the FO serves up with a smile on my face doesn't make me negative. It makes me someone who can actually hold a unique thought instead of grinning like an idiot with my pom poms in the air.

The FO has made good moves and I have applauded them for them, and I have criticized them for bad moves, it's not my fault they do more of the latter.

This one siakam trade almost got us an entire bench.

Oh yeah, totally doesn't infer that our bench is all but resolved.

Bruh you think every move is stupid, and every post that goes against your opinion is stupid.

In this thread, you are bitching about someone saying we got a bench which it really is looking like we did. Shead, Walter, Agabji, are all looking like future good bench pieces. Not to mention getting Ingram means one of our starters now comes of the bench, further proving his point.

But of course, you have found some way to complain about it and call it a "stupid post". Come on man.

And his lat point that the Siakam trade almost got us an entire bench is just facts. He even used the word "almost" to suggest it is not a complete finished product. Yet you go "WELL ACTUALLY" on his ass in a snarky response. Be better.

Of those three players, Agbaji is the only one that we can say is currently a solid bench piece. The other two are clearly not there yet. Maybe one day they will, but maybe they won't. I'm hopeful, but as of today, we've gotten exactly one OK bench player from Siakam.

[ill-Will03]

Wtf are you talking about almost got us a bench, sure, lets crown them a future bench after playing like 30-40 games, holy **** the hyperbole here. I like the players we got, but Im not delusional enough to think we have our bench shored up after seeing what we have this season, jesus christ.

Sure call me negative, I couldn't care less when it comes from the same cadre of people slobbering over every move this FO makes like it's the steal of the century. No wonder you people couldn't stomach a rebuild.

Oh no you’re not negative. I’m sure everyone on here would agree you’re one of the most positive and optimistic people on this board.

Also I never said we have our bench shored up not sure where you got that from lol.

I'm critical of stupid moves and stupid posts, I applaud good moves and thought out opinions. Just because I don't swallow every pile of crap the FO serves up with a smile on my face doesn't make me negative. It makes me someone who can actually hold a unique thought instead of grinning like an idiot with my pom poms in the air.

The FO has made good moves and I have applauded them for them, and I have criticized them for bad moves, it's not my fault they do more of the latter.

This one siakam trade almost got us an entire bench.

Oh yeah, totally doesn't infer that our bench is all but resolved.

I’ve literally never heard you say anything positive about this FO ever and I’m sure many others would agree with me. Also Masai has made WAY more good moves than bad but obviously your bias won’t let you see that.


Speaking of stupid maybe you should look up what the meaning of almost is lol

[Scase]

I'm critical of stupid moves and stupid posts, I applaud good moves and thought out opinions. Just because I don't swallow every pile of crap the FO serves up with a smile on my face doesn't make me negative. It makes me someone who can actually hold a unique thought instead of grinning like an idiot with my pom poms in the air.

The FO has made good moves and I have applauded them for them, and I have criticized them for bad moves, it's not my fault they do more of the latter.



Oh yeah, totally doesn't infer that our bench is all but resolved.

Bruh you think every move is stupid, and every post that goes against your opinion is stupid.

In this thread, you are bitching about someone saying we got a bench which it really is looking like we did. Shead, Walter, Agabji, are all looking like future good bench pieces. Not to mention getting Ingram means one of our starters now comes of the bench, further proving his point.

But of course, you have found some way to complain about it and call it a "stupid post". Come on man.

And his lat point that the Siakam trade almost got us an entire bench is just facts. He even used the word "almost" to suggest it is not a complete finished product. Yet you go "WELL ACTUALLY" on his ass in a snarky response. Be better.

Of those three players, Agbaji is the only one that we can say is currently a solid bench piece. The other two are clearly not there yet. Maybe one day they will, but maybe they won't. I'm hopeful, but as of today, we've gotten exactly one OK bench player from Siakam.

Exactly this. We have a solid bench player in Ochai from that, everything else is a bunch of massive question marks with low probabilities of positive outcomes.

Oh no you’re not negative. I’m sure everyone on here would agree you’re one of the most positive and optimistic people on this board.

Also I never said we have our bench shored up not sure where you got that from lol.

I'm critical of stupid moves and stupid posts, I applaud good moves and thought out opinions. Just because I don't swallow every pile of crap the FO serves up with a smile on my face doesn't make me negative. It makes me someone who can actually hold a unique thought instead of grinning like an idiot with my pom poms in the air.

The FO has made good moves and I have applauded them for them, and I have criticized them for bad moves, it's not my fault they do more of the latter.

This one siakam trade almost got us an entire bench.

Oh yeah, totally doesn't infer that our bench is all but resolved.

I’ve literally never heard you say anything positive about this FO ever and I’m sure many others would agree with me. Also Masai has made WAY more good moves than bad but obviously your bias won’t let you see that.


Speaking of stupid maybe you should look up what the meaning of almost is lol

So because of your bias, that means I never say anything positive? I have been extremely positive about drafting Scottie and Gradey, I was originally very happy that we got IQ on the team but that has cooled off, I think the McDaniels trade was great, I am also actually higher than most on Mobgo and liked the pick, Shead I'm on the fence about but so far is looking like a good pickup.

And I have expressed this anytime the conversations come up, humans remember negatives and forget positives, it is how we are hard wired. Just because you don't recognize it isn't my fault.

Almost means very nearly but not entirely, so if the Siakam trade ALMOST resolved our bench issue, that would mean that we should have those problems all shored up, since we have other players that were not acquired via that trade, a bench is also between 5 and 10 players, just FYI. Maybe do a better job of providing context to your claims before suggesting someone else is stupid.

Your statement/post was a stupid comment IMO, I don't think you as a person are stupid, so let's try and leave the personal attacks out of it.

[YogurtProducer]

And I have expressed this anytime the conversations come up, humans remember negatives and forget positives, it is how we are hard wired. Just because you don't recognize it isn't my fault.

Funny, I don't seem to find every single poster negative, but whenever I see your username I took a deep breathe and prepare myself to read some disingenuous negative stuff. Why does that not happen for all posters, but only a select few of you?

[ill-Will03]

Bruh you think every move is stupid, and every post that goes against your opinion is stupid.

In this thread, you are bitching about someone saying we got a bench which it really is looking like we did. Shead, Walter, Agabji, are all looking like future good bench pieces. Not to mention getting Ingram means one of our starters now comes of the bench, further proving his point.

But of course, you have found some way to complain about it and call it a "stupid post". Come on man.

And his lat point that the Siakam trade almost got us an entire bench is just facts. He even used the word "almost" to suggest it is not a complete finished product. Yet you go "WELL ACTUALLY" on his ass in a snarky response. Be better.

Of those three players, Agbaji is the only one that we can say is currently a solid bench piece. The other two are clearly not there yet. Maybe one day they will, but maybe they won't. I'm hopeful, but as of today, we've gotten exactly one OK bench player from Siakam.

Exactly this. We have a solid bench player in Ochai from that, everything else is a bunch of massive question marks with low probabilities of positive outcomes.

I'm critical of stupid moves and stupid posts, I applaud good moves and thought out opinions. Just because I don't swallow every pile of crap the FO serves up with a smile on my face doesn't make me negative. It makes me someone who can actually hold a unique thought instead of grinning like an idiot with my pom poms in the air.

The FO has made good moves and I have applauded them for them, and I have criticized them for bad moves, it's not my fault they do more of the latter.



Oh yeah, totally doesn't infer that our bench is all but resolved.

I’ve literally never heard you say anything positive about this FO ever and I’m sure many others would agree with me. Also Masai has made WAY more good moves than bad but obviously your bias won’t let you see that.


Speaking of stupid maybe you should look up what the meaning of almost is lol

So because of your bias, that means I never say anything positive? I have been extremely positive about drafting Scottie and Gradey, I was originally very happy that we got IQ on the team but that has cooled off, I think the McDaniels trade was great, I am also actually higher than most on Mobgo and liked the pick, Shead I'm on the fence about but so far is looking like a good pickup.

And I have expressed this anytime the conversations come up, humans remember negatives and forget positives, it is how we are hard wired. Just because you don't recognize it isn't my fault.

Almost means very nearly but not entirely, so if the Siakam trade ALMOST resolved our bench issue, that would mean that we should have those problems all shored up, since we have other players that were not acquired via that trade, a bench is also between 5 and 10 players, just FYI. Maybe do a better job of providing context to your claims before suggesting someone else is stupid.

Your statement/post was a stupid comment IMO, I don't think you as a person are stupid, so let's try and leave the personal attacks out of it.

I actually agree with your point that people only remember the negatives. But I’m sure even you can admit your overall view of the FO is negative.


That’s fine if you feel my post was stupid. I still stand by my statement. I think Shead and Walter have already shown enough as rookies to show they will be key pieces of our bench moving forward. Also the BI trade will also bolster our bench even further because someone in the SL will move to the bench, probably Gradey who you seem to like. I think that’s a pretty solid bench to start with already and no that doesn’t mean we’re done and don’t need to improve the bench any further. The pascal trade gave us a lot more depth and improved our teams future I don’t think that’s up for debate.

[YogurtProducer]

I'm critical of stupid moves and stupid posts, I applaud good moves and thought out opinions. Just because I don't swallow every pile of crap the FO serves up with a smile on my face doesn't make me negative. It makes me someone who can actually hold a unique thought instead of grinning like an idiot with my pom poms in the air.

The FO has made good moves and I have applauded them for them, and I have criticized them for bad moves, it's not my fault they do more of the latter.



Oh yeah, totally doesn't infer that our bench is all but resolved.

Bruh you think every move is stupid, and every post that goes against your opinion is stupid.

In this thread, you are bitching about someone saying we got a bench which it really is looking like we did. Shead, Walter, Agabji, are all looking like future good bench pieces. Not to mention getting Ingram means one of our starters now comes of the bench, further proving his point.

But of course, you have found some way to complain about it and call it a "stupid post". Come on man.

And his lat point that the Siakam trade almost got us an entire bench is just facts. He even used the word "almost" to suggest it is not a complete finished product. Yet you go "WELL ACTUALLY" on his ass in a snarky response. Be better.

Of those three players, Agbaji is the only one that we can say is currently a solid bench piece. The other two are clearly not there yet. Maybe one day they will, but maybe they won't. I'm hopeful, but as of today, we've gotten exactly one OK bench player from Siakam.

Acquiring Ingram also means an additional piece is going to the bench, probably Dick or RJ. They seem like a solid bench piece.

That right there is 2. Between Shead and Walter I would bet we get a 3rd. I'd say grabbing 40-60% of a bench in one deal can be classified as "almost" shoring up the bench.

[Tha Cynic]

It seems like you like what Masai has done with our bench Scase lol

[MoneyBall]

Bruh you think every move is stupid, and every post that goes against your opinion is stupid.

In this thread, you are bitching about someone saying we got a bench which it really is looking like we did. Shead, Walter, Agabji, are all looking like future good bench pieces. Not to mention getting Ingram means one of our starters now comes of the bench, further proving his point.

But of course, you have found some way to complain about it and call it a "stupid post". Come on man.

And his lat point that the Siakam trade almost got us an entire bench is just facts. He even used the word "almost" to suggest it is not a complete finished product. Yet you go "WELL ACTUALLY" on his ass in a snarky response. Be better.

Of those three players, Agbaji is the only one that we can say is currently a solid bench piece. The other two are clearly not there yet. Maybe one day they will, but maybe they won't. I'm hopeful, but as of today, we've gotten exactly one OK bench player from Siakam.

Acquiring Ingram also means an additional piece is going to the bench, probably Dick or RJ. They seem like a solid bench piece.

That right there is 2. Between Shead and Walter I would bet we get a 3rd. I'd say grabbing 40-60% of a bench in one deal can be classified as "almost" shoring up the bench.

I think that's stretching it. We gave up a starter in Pascal, so at best, Ingram takes his spot.

Among Precious, Flynn, and Banton, I thought we had at least one solid guy there too.

In any case, Dick is still a net negative on the court. Again, I'm hopeful he'll turn out great, but he's not there yet. Plus, he's got nothing to do with the Siakam trade.

[StopitLeo]

It was a poor return at the time but the front office has been successful in using those assets to improve the roster and most importantly raise the level of top end talent on the team.

[YogurtProducer]

Of those three players, Agbaji is the only one that we can say is currently a solid bench piece. The other two are clearly not there yet. Maybe one day they will, but maybe they won't. I'm hopeful, but as of today, we've gotten exactly one OK bench player from Siakam.

Acquiring Ingram also means an additional piece is going to the bench, probably Dick or RJ. They seem like a solid bench piece.

That right there is 2. Between Shead and Walter I would bet we get a 3rd. I'd say grabbing 40-60% of a bench in one deal can be classified as "almost" shoring up the bench.

I think that's stretching it. We gave up a starter in Pascal, so at best, Ingram takes his spot.

Among Precious, Flynn, and Banton, I thought we had at least one solid guy there too.

In any case, Dick is still a net negative on the court. Again, I'm hopeful he'll turn out great, but he's not there yet. Plus, he's got nothing to do with the Siakam trade.

To be fair Precious is solid, and would have actually been nice as our backup 4/5 right now.

Dick is maybe a net negative starter, but he is more than adequate off the bench. And yes, he does. The guy was saying the Siakam trade filled out our bench. Ingram being a starter and sending a starter to the bench is entirely relevant.

[Scase]

Of those three players, Agbaji is the only one that we can say is currently a solid bench piece. The other two are clearly not there yet. Maybe one day they will, but maybe they won't. I'm hopeful, but as of today, we've gotten exactly one OK bench player from Siakam.

Exactly this. We have a solid bench player in Ochai from that, everything else is a bunch of massive question marks with low probabilities of positive outcomes.

I’ve literally never heard you say anything positive about this FO ever and I’m sure many others would agree with me. Also Masai has made WAY more good moves than bad but obviously your bias won’t let you see that.


Speaking of stupid maybe you should look up what the meaning of almost is lol

So because of your bias, that means I never say anything positive? I have been extremely positive about drafting Scottie and Gradey, I was originally very happy that we got IQ on the team but that has cooled off, I think the McDaniels trade was great, I am also actually higher than most on Mobgo and liked the pick, Shead I'm on the fence about but so far is looking like a good pickup.

And I have expressed this anytime the conversations come up, humans remember negatives and forget positives, it is how we are hard wired. Just because you don't recognize it isn't my fault.

Almost means very nearly but not entirely, so if the Siakam trade ALMOST resolved our bench issue, that would mean that we should have those problems all shored up, since we have other players that were not acquired via that trade, a bench is also between 5 and 10 players, just FYI. Maybe do a better job of providing context to your claims before suggesting someone else is stupid.

Your statement/post was a stupid comment IMO, I don't think you as a person are stupid, so let's try and leave the personal attacks out of it.

I actually agree with your point that people only remember the negatives. But I’m sure even you can admit your overall view of the FO is negative.


That’s fine if you feel my post was stupid. I still stand by my statement. I think Shead and Walter have already shown enough as rookies to show they will be key pieces of our bench moving forward. Also the BI trade will also bolster our bench even further because someone in the SL will move to the bench, probably Gradey who you seem to like. I think that’s a pretty solid bench to start with already and no that doesn’t mean we’re done and don’t need to improve the bench any further. The pascal trade gave us a lot more depth and improved our teams future I don’t think that’s up for debate.

I actually forgot about JKW, thanks for reminding me. He is someone I think will likely be part of our bench moving forward, but I'm not willing to make any definitive statements off such a small number of games/minutes played. I'm neutral on that pick overall.

And the reason my view is overall more negative, is because I think they have made more bad moves than good in the last 5 years. I think that's a pretty reasonable stance. The good moves are largely outweighed by the bad moves to me, so yeah, I'll be more negative, if something either happens more often, or is more impacting, it'll reserve more headspace.

The Scottie pick is the best thing this FO has done in the last 5 years, and it was a direct result of their strongest skill, drafting. The reason I'm so negative is because I tire of seeing this FO constantly move away from their strengths and aim for mediocre moves. We obviously have differing opinions so the outlooks will also differ. Personally, I think the Jak trade was massive, and really could be seen as the catalyst for where we are now.

This bit is obviously speculation, so grain of salt. But getting jak effectively shot any chance of a rebuild dead, for a couple years. Had we not traded for him and given the mediocre core another shot, we could have started rebuilding then, with a key point being, Masai would have had multiple years left on his contract to plan a proper rebuild.

Now, does he actually ever plan a proper rebuild? Hard to say, but it's easy to see why now with like 1 year left in his contract, that instead of starting fresh, we traded for players on, or going into their second contracts, picked up options on vets we didn't really need to extract as much value out of an already bad trade, and making a short-sighted trade for a player like BI. It's like the butterfly effect, one smaller thing turning into a much bigger one.

I suspect we're aiming for the moves we are, because Masai doesn't want to go into contract negotiations with MLSE with back to back ~20 win seasons, and nothing to show for it except the hope of a single pick. So instead, he picks up a player like BI and sells the brass on the team competing for the play in the next season.

Had he started a proper rebuild a couple years ago, when he would be coming up to those contract negotiations, we would probably have a young promising team. But when his hailmary of building a contender out of a heavily flawed core backfired, he had to scramble.

Overall, I dont think Masai is the guy for the job of a real rebuild, but I was more than willing to give him the chance to prove me wrong, and for about 3 months, I actually believed it and was in support of what we were doing. But then the treadmill stuff started. I have tons of faith in Masai when it comes to drafting, I was extremely skeptical that we would actually go into a rebuild with him, but a bunch of people **** on me for saying that, and kept claiming "Look at what we're doing, listen to him he said rebuild!".

And then a couple months later we're playing vets that have little to no value, who end up being traded as nothing more than salary filler, resulting in pointless wins that will negatively affect our draft standing, and then we go and trade another FRP to get a constantly injured 2nd option player, who will be 28 next year, and to top it all off, give him a PO on his extension.

So if you want to know why I'm so negative towards them, it's because every time I think they are going to do something stupid, they prove me right. This is not, and never was a rebuild, it was a retool, and nothing can convince me otherwise.

[MoneyBall]

Acquiring Ingram also means an additional piece is going to the bench, probably Dick or RJ. They seem like a solid bench piece.

That right there is 2. Between Shead and Walter I would bet we get a 3rd. I'd say grabbing 40-60% of a bench in one deal can be classified as "almost" shoring up the bench.

I think that's stretching it. We gave up a starter in Pascal, so at best, Ingram takes his spot.

Among Precious, Flynn, and Banton, I thought we had at least one solid guy there too.

In any case, Dick is still a net negative on the court. Again, I'm hopeful he'll turn out great, but he's not there yet. Plus, he's got nothing to do with the Siakam trade.

To be fair Precious is solid, and would have actually been nice as our backup 4/5 right now.

Dick is maybe a net negative starter, but he is more than adequate off the bench. And yes, he does. The guy was saying the Siakam trade filled out our bench. Ingram being a starter and sending a starter to the bench is entirely relevant.

If we had traded Siakam for Ingram straight up, would that have solidified our bench in any way? No, of course not, because we merely exchanged starters.

As things stand right now, the Pascal trade has gotten us ONE solid bench player (Agjabi), that's it. Being hopeful about Walter and Shead's futures in the NBA doesn't negate that fact.

BTW, not that it's really relevant to this discussion, but Dick gets burned by bench players. All. The. Time.

[ill-Will03]

Exactly this. We have a solid bench player in Ochai from that, everything else is a bunch of massive question marks with low probabilities of positive outcomes.



So because of your bias, that means I never say anything positive? I have been extremely positive about drafting Scottie and Gradey, I was originally very happy that we got IQ on the team but that has cooled off, I think the McDaniels trade was great, I am also actually higher than most on Mobgo and liked the pick, Shead I'm on the fence about but so far is looking like a good pickup.

And I have expressed this anytime the conversations come up, humans remember negatives and forget positives, it is how we are hard wired. Just because you don't recognize it isn't my fault.

Almost means very nearly but not entirely, so if the Siakam trade ALMOST resolved our bench issue, that would mean that we should have those problems all shored up, since we have other players that were not acquired via that trade, a bench is also between 5 and 10 players, just FYI. Maybe do a better job of providing context to your claims before suggesting someone else is stupid.

Your statement/post was a stupid comment IMO, I don't think you as a person are stupid, so let's try and leave the personal attacks out of it.

I actually agree with your point that people only remember the negatives. But I’m sure even you can admit your overall view of the FO is negative.


That’s fine if you feel my post was stupid. I still stand by my statement. I think Shead and Walter have already shown enough as rookies to show they will be key pieces of our bench moving forward. Also the BI trade will also bolster our bench even further because someone in the SL will move to the bench, probably Gradey who you seem to like. I think that’s a pretty solid bench to start with already and no that doesn’t mean we’re done and don’t need to improve the bench any further. The pascal trade gave us a lot more depth and improved our teams future I don’t think that’s up for debate.

I actually forgot about JKW, thanks for reminding me. He is someone I think will likely be part of our bench moving forward, but I'm not willing to make any definitive statements off such a small number of games/minutes played. I'm neutral on that pick overall.

And the reason my view is overall more negative, is because I think they have made more bad moves than good in the last 5 years. I think that's a pretty reasonable stance. The good moves are largely outweighed by the bad moves to me, so yeah, I'll be more negative, if something either happens more often, or is more impacting, it'll reserve more headspace.

The Scottie pick is the best thing this FO has done in the last 5 years, and it was a direct result of their strongest skill, drafting. The reason I'm so negative is because I tire of seeing this FO constantly move away from their strengths and aim for mediocre moves. We obviously have differing opinions so the outlooks will also differ. Personally, I think the Jak trade was massive, and really could be seen as the catalyst for where we are now.

This bit is obviously speculation, so grain of salt. But getting jak effectively shot any chance of a rebuild dead, for a couple years. Had we not traded for him and given the mediocre core another shot, we could have started rebuilding then, with a key point being, Masai would have had multiple years left on his contract to plan a proper rebuild.

Now, does he actually ever plan a proper rebuild? Hard to say, but it's easy to see why now with like 1 year left in his contract, that instead of starting fresh, we traded for players on, or going into their second contracts, picked up options on vets we didn't really need to extract as much value out of an already bad trade, and making a short-sighted trade for a player like BI. It's like the butterfly effect, one smaller thing turning into a much bigger one.

I suspect we're aiming for the moves we are, because Masai doesn't want to go into contract negotiations with MLSE with back to back ~20 win seasons, and nothing to show for it except the hope of a single pick. So instead, he picks up a player like BI and sells the brass on the team competing for the play in the next season.

Had he started a proper rebuild a couple years ago, when he would be coming up to those contract negotiations, we would probably have a young promising team. But when his hailmary of building a contender out of a heavily flawed core backfired, he had to scramble.

Overall, I dont think Masai is the guy for the job of a real rebuild, but I was more than willing to give him the chance to prove me wrong, and for about 3 months, I actually believed it and was in support of what we were doing. But then the treadmill stuff started. I have tons of faith in Masai when it comes to drafting, I was extremely skeptical that we would actually go into a rebuild with him, but a bunch of people **** on me for saying that, and kept claiming "Look at what we're doing, listen to him he said rebuild!".

And then a couple months later we're playing vets that have little to no value, who end up being traded as nothing more than salary filler, resulting in pointless wins that will negatively affect our draft standing, and then we go and trade another FRP to get a constantly injured 2nd option player, who will be 28 next year, and to top it all off, give him a PO on his extension.

So if you want to know why I'm so negative towards them, it's because every time I think they are going to do something stupid, they prove me right. This is not, and never was a rebuild, it was a retool, and nothing can convince me otherwise.

Honestly, I really do appreciate you explaining your POV the way you did. It does actually help me understand more of where you are coming from. Listen has Masai been perfect? no definitely not and that Jak trade was stupid then and its stupid now. We would have been a lot further along in our rebuild has we reset then, that is a fact, but really nothing we can do about that now. At the end of the day Masai STILL is one of the top executives in the league and I feel many of you take him for granted. He will make bad moves from time to time, hell all the top execs do. but for the most part he has shown his competency for over a decade now, I think he has earned some kind of slack lol.

As far as philosophy to build a team I don't think we will ever agree on that, I personally don't think tanking is as effective as some say it is and honestly I personally just don't want to watch a bad team. I'm not of the championship or bust mentality, i rather see the team competitive in the playoffs, and hopefully pounce when the opportunity comes to go all in. I don't think our ownership will ever stomach a full rebuild like you want regardless of if Masai is here or anyone else. I think you underestimate the greed of MLSE, they only care about one thing and that is making money and tanking will definitely not provide that, i think the anti tank motto is above Masai imo

[johanliebert]

I'd still grade it an A if the Bi trade is excluded. Masai fleeced the pacers.

[Scase]

I actually agree with your point that people only remember the negatives. But I’m sure even you can admit your overall view of the FO is negative.


That’s fine if you feel my post was stupid. I still stand by my statement. I think Shead and Walter have already shown enough as rookies to show they will be key pieces of our bench moving forward. Also the BI trade will also bolster our bench even further because someone in the SL will move to the bench, probably Gradey who you seem to like. I think that’s a pretty solid bench to start with already and no that doesn’t mean we’re done and don’t need to improve the bench any further. The pascal trade gave us a lot more depth and improved our teams future I don’t think that’s up for debate.

I actually forgot about JKW, thanks for reminding me. He is someone I think will likely be part of our bench moving forward, but I'm not willing to make any definitive statements off such a small number of games/minutes played. I'm neutral on that pick overall.

And the reason my view is overall more negative, is because I think they have made more bad moves than good in the last 5 years. I think that's a pretty reasonable stance. The good moves are largely outweighed by the bad moves to me, so yeah, I'll be more negative, if something either happens more often, or is more impacting, it'll reserve more headspace.

The Scottie pick is the best thing this FO has done in the last 5 years, and it was a direct result of their strongest skill, drafting. The reason I'm so negative is because I tire of seeing this FO constantly move away from their strengths and aim for mediocre moves. We obviously have differing opinions so the outlooks will also differ. Personally, I think the Jak trade was massive, and really could be seen as the catalyst for where we are now.

This bit is obviously speculation, so grain of salt. But getting jak effectively shot any chance of a rebuild dead, for a couple years. Had we not traded for him and given the mediocre core another shot, we could have started rebuilding then, with a key point being, Masai would have had multiple years left on his contract to plan a proper rebuild.

Now, does he actually ever plan a proper rebuild? Hard to say, but it's easy to see why now with like 1 year left in his contract, that instead of starting fresh, we traded for players on, or going into their second contracts, picked up options on vets we didn't really need to extract as much value out of an already bad trade, and making a short-sighted trade for a player like BI. It's like the butterfly effect, one smaller thing turning into a much bigger one.

I suspect we're aiming for the moves we are, because Masai doesn't want to go into contract negotiations with MLSE with back to back ~20 win seasons, and nothing to show for it except the hope of a single pick. So instead, he picks up a player like BI and sells the brass on the team competing for the play in the next season.

Had he started a proper rebuild a couple years ago, when he would be coming up to those contract negotiations, we would probably have a young promising team. But when his hailmary of building a contender out of a heavily flawed core backfired, he had to scramble.

Overall, I dont think Masai is the guy for the job of a real rebuild, but I was more than willing to give him the chance to prove me wrong, and for about 3 months, I actually believed it and was in support of what we were doing. But then the treadmill stuff started. I have tons of faith in Masai when it comes to drafting, I was extremely skeptical that we would actually go into a rebuild with him, but a bunch of people **** on me for saying that, and kept claiming "Look at what we're doing, listen to him he said rebuild!".

And then a couple months later we're playing vets that have little to no value, who end up being traded as nothing more than salary filler, resulting in pointless wins that will negatively affect our draft standing, and then we go and trade another FRP to get a constantly injured 2nd option player, who will be 28 next year, and to top it all off, give him a PO on his extension.

So if you want to know why I'm so negative towards them, it's because every time I think they are going to do something stupid, they prove me right. This is not, and never was a rebuild, it was a retool, and nothing can convince me otherwise.

Honestly, I really do appreciate you explaining your POV the way you did. It does actually help me understand more of where you are coming from. Listen has Masai been perfect? no definitely not and that Jak trade was stupid then and its stupid now. We would have been a lot further along in our rebuild has we reset then, that is a fact, but really nothing we can do about that now. At the end of the day Masai STILL is one of the top executives in the league and I feel many of you take him for granted. He will make bad moves from time to time, hell all the top execs do. but for the most part he has shown his competency for over a decade now, I think he has earned some kind of slack lol.

As far as philosophy to build a team I don't think we will ever agree on that, I personally don't think tanking is as effective as some say it is and honestly I personally just don't want to watch a bad team. I'm not of the championship or bust mentality, i rather see the team competitive in the playoffs, and hopefully pounce when the opportunity comes to go all in. I don't think our ownership will ever stomach a full rebuild like you want regardless of if Masai is here or anyone else. I think you underestimate the greed of MLSE, they only care about one thing and that is making money and tanking will definitely not provide that, i think the anti tank motto is above Masai imo

No worries, I appreciate having a normal conversation about it. I tire very much of the "You're just negative" angle, it's reductive and just leads to people picking sides. There definitely are things we won't agree on, and I'm fine with that, variety is the spice of life/diversity of opinions etc. but disagreeing with a path you think is bad, isn't negative, it's disagreeing. If we were choosing the path I wanted, the whole thing would be flipped and people wanting the opposite would be seen as "negative", when in fact they just aren't happy with the direction chosen.

As for the philosophy on team building, that's fair, I don't think tanking is a be all end all, and appreciate your honesty about just not wanting to watch a bad team. As for the ownership not having the stomach to do a full rebuild, I don't buy that one personally, for a couple reasons. They have done it with the Leafs, and I believe people mentioned them doing it with the Jays, but full disclosure I dont watch baseball, and the Leafs can kick rocks So I think they would be open to the idea if it had a plan in place, second bit is that Masai has outright stated publicly, that he is not beholden to anyone when it comes to basketball decisions, now whether or not that is true is up for debate, but if I am to take him at his word for anything, that fits the bill.

Lastly, I think the whole tanking idea gets a bad rap, people don't want a 5-7 "Process" style tank, that I think is unrealistic, and quite frankly the "wrong" way to tank. But all I wanted, was for us to stink this year, and next. I would happily support this current core with 2 high end picks in the wings. I just cannot get behind short term moves to expedite the process, we've seen it here before. And as good as the FO has been, they have been pretty bad the last 5 years, their overall body of work is obviously a plus, but the slack he earned has run out for me.

Some people have more or less patience than either of us, but watching multiple years of moves I vehemently disagree with, has made me want change. I don't think we have a bad FO, I just don't think we have the right FO for a proper rebuild resulting in a successful team for the long term. Same way Nurse is a great coach, but I'd rather Darko right now as he seems to be much better at growing the players.

A hammer isn't better than a screwdriver, they are both tools used for different jobs.

[phanman]

I'd still grade it an A if the Bi trade is excluded. Masai fleeced the pacers.

With how well Pascal has played in Indiana to keep that team afloat with their injuries and Hali regressing this year, it's been a win-win for both sides. I dont think they regret their decision at all and that front office had already done a great job at building around the margins but were always going to be a team that was capped without a secondary star to put next to Tyrese. They were never going to have the pre-requisite cap space to get a player like Pascal in FA without gutting their roster. Similar to our move with BI, they traded for a player they liked and thought fit in their system to resign them using bird rights.

I voted B+ because without seeing BI actually play for us on his new contract, we really don't know how it'll end. I have some faith that he'll do well here but given the parameters of trading an upcoming FA, getting 3 FRPS (no matter where they landed) + a championship rotation piece in BB with a tradable contract was as good as it was going to get. As much as I loved having Pascal here, it was clear that the front office wanted to clear the runway to see the potential of the two guys we got from New York and most importantly Scottie as the unquestioned leader.

[youngRAPZ]

Sir who said anything about trading our pick? I said we can trade players at the draft to make space for the pick I seriously don’t understand what you’re talking about. Why would we trade the pick what makes you feel like we are trading the pick.

I only brought up the pick because you were talking about trades at the draft, I have no idea what "making space" means at all or why it's relevant. I'm going to spell out this point as clearly and slowly as I can:

1. You think 1 year of tanking is enough
2. Tanking is for getting a high draft pick and drafting a star
3. Toronto hasn't drafted anyone yet
4. Therefore, it is impossible to know if they have tanked "enough" right now

We literally added a former Allstar for what will likely be a non lottery pick in 26. We are still tanking this year what are you crying about even if we drop to 7 we can still get a good prospect mainly Maluach who would replace Jak and in time we can trade Jak. WE ARE NOT LOCKED IN TO ANYONE!!!!!

Regarding the young players lol can they have more than .5(all the rookies)-1.5(Dick) seasons of development before we determine what their ceiling is?

We do not know for certain what their ceiling is, but you can say that about every single young player in the league.
Hope and expectation are 2 completely different things.

I hope Gradey can become a star
I expect Gradey will not become a star

You can't just build a team on hope, which is why it doesn't make sense to stop tanking now. Ingram may be a better fit than Siakam, but he's not a significantly better player. Therefore, there's no reason to expect (there's that word again) that this team will be any better than when they had to trade Siakam away.

You clearly haven’t been paying attention to the nba. When a star demands out or is in an expiring salary situation teams tend to take what they can get.

Yah, those stars don't demand to come to Toronto.

Can’t build a team on hope. Tanking is literally that. And how can you not understand what make space for the draft pick means. That means if we get flagg Bailey Harper whoever we can make trades to open up mins it’s pretty obvious what I meant.

1. Yes I do considering we are adding a top pick PLUS INGRAM
2. Who cares if we drafted someone yet we could literally get Flagg and he could bust lol just because we won the number 1 pick doesn’t mean he will become a superstar we won’t know that for at least couple years because I guarantee he ain’t no LeBron or doncic. So your point on not knowing who we draft is pointless because even if you did you don’t know what they will be.
3. lol yeh it’s impossible to know when any team has tanked enough how’s Detroit doing with their tank job lol they added Tobias we added Ingram. They tanked for years and they sick of it cuz it hasn’t gotten them anything but Cade.


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[brownbobcat]

Can’t build a team on hope. Tanking is literally that. And how can you not understand what make space for the draft pick means. That means if we get flagg Bailey Harper whoever we can make trades to open up mins it’s pretty obvious what I meant.

No, it is not. I'm simply going to repost what I already said.

The difference is it (tanking) isn't unfounded hope.
Do we have any reasonable basis for expecting/hoping that Gradey + the rookies will become stars? I would say no.
Do we have any reasonable basis for expecting/hoping that a star will be available at the draft? Yes, I think so. This is the reason to tank.
Do we have any reasonable basis for expecting/hoping whoever they pick will become a star? Too soon to tell. This is the reason not to stop the tank.

"Making space" is just shuffling chairs if you don't have a star, it is completely irrelevant to the concept of team building.

1. Yes I do considering we are adding a top pick PLUS INGRAM
2. Who cares if we drafted someone yet we could literally get Flagg and he could bust lol just because we won the number 1 pick doesn’t mean he will become a superstar we won’t know that for at least couple years because I guarantee he ain’t no LeBron or doncic. So your point on not knowing who we draft is pointless because even if you did you don’t know what they will be.

The bolded parts are the whole point, do you not see your own contradiction? Having no idea what the pick will be means you can't assume it will be part of the core. Yes, that means you have to wait! Ideally, you can at least see if there's star potential after a few months.

3 lol yeh it’s impossible to know when any team has tanked enough how’s Detroit doing with their tank job lol they added Tobias we added Ingram. They tanked for years and they sick of it cuz it hasn’t gotten them anything but Cade.

But. They. Did. Get. Cade. By. Tanking. How can you not see that?
It would have been very hard for them to get a player like that any other way, just like Toronto needed to tank to get Barnes.
Is Cade or Barnes enough? To get to .500, maybe, but probably not contend.