Starting SF Graham or Moon

[Black Milk]

All of our wing option are guys that should should be playing in the 2nd or 3rd unit. The obivous option here is Kapono, he just has to catch and shoot. Doesn't seem hard eh, try telling that to him.

Kapono has humptingitis, thinks he is something he is not. I used to love Kapono and still like him but for the love of god we didnt pay you 25 million to attack the rim or improve your dribbling during games, we payed you 25 million because your the best catch and shoot guy in the NBA, so do it, accept your damn roleeee!!!!!!!!!

Almost looks like he is using his time in Toronto to become a better all around player and for the most part its killin our team. We all know what a weapon he is based on his time in Miami and the playoffs last year, so please stop usin our team as your personal practise time and get down to doing what you do best.

Correction: He's using PRESEASON as his practice time, not the Raptors.

DO YOU really think Kapono is going to be bringing the ball up court during the regular season only to turn it over with errant passes?

He better not other wise I would like to see Sam give him a beat down.
As for the OP's question, Moon seems to be playing himself out of the starting line up as much as Joey is playing himself in. His shot seems just as bad, and his handles don't seem good enough to get to the rim, or he's unwilling to try. So really Joey just being decent is an upgrade from that.

[Anatomize]

When Joey does his annual disappearing act and ends up DNP-CD every game, lets bring this one back up. Still can't believe the kind of support this guy gets around here...This is his 4th season and he's what like 26 now? He's had one decent stretch over his career while being given every opportunity to succeed.

While Moon showed consistency last season, he's still just a sophomore in the NBA.

There's no reason why he can't REGRESS from last season (*cough). I thought in the Minny game, he showed excellent timing on his blocks on Carney and a few others, his rebounding and positioning also looks extremely solid.

What I think people here find intriguing about Joey (including myself) is his ability to mix it up. He's showing a new skill for putting the ball on the floor and blowing by defenders. He's actually very good in the post, but underutilized in mismatches down low. He actually has a very nice mid range game as well. The problem comes when Joey over thinks the game and doesn't do the simple things to be effective. It is easy to see that when Graham is right, he's driving at will, finishing strong with contact, pulling up off the dribble and hitting open shots, as well as grabbing some rebounds.

Moon's deficiencies in the game are strongly highlighted when he's on offense, and with the pressure our 3 headed monster is going to receive, we're going to need two things out of him: solid perimeter defense, and hitting open shots as well as attacking the rim.

"Why not put in Kapono? He is an incredible shooter and stretches out the defense." Kapono is a very poor defender and fouls at an extremely high rate because he's often getting beat off the dribble. In almost every preseason game I've watched thus far, when our bench comes on, he is the player being attacked the most by opposing teams.

To me, the simple choice is Graham, and only if he's playing the right way.

[O'DEAN_MAGNUM]

I am pretty biased in this debate, as I think Joey is absolutely garbage.....no good/bad Joey.....just Garbage Joey. When his contract is up, I don't even think he'll be able to play for a top tier Euroleague team because his lack of skills and Bball IQ.

I know that this thread was made to debate the merits of our two potential starting SF's, but all it has done is depressed me, given the choices.

but, Moon.

[YogiStewart]

my comparison list:

Moon:

Advantages -
better 1-on-1 defender
better shot blocker
better defending long, lean 3s
better hops
better bball IQ (but not by much)

Graham:

Advantages -
better midrange game
better 3 point shot (but i would have to pull up the stats to prove it)
better at banging low
better all-around athleticism (but I'm not sure if/how that translates to on-court game)
better at slashing (but not by much)

my conclusion:
-start Joey if you want more on the O end
-start Moon if you want a better defender against Deng et al.

[Kosta]

so far, he is quite consistent.

he's consistenly in Sam's pre-season doghouse.
he consistently refuses to slash and attack the rim.

at least with Joey, you get some great nights once in a while.

i would love to start Moon against players that are lean and lanky, like Deng. he's a great fit. otherwise....

Moon isn't the first player to come out slow in pre season, I think it's going to take a lot more for Sam to find a reason to NOT start Moon to begin the season. Joey has been out half the pre season and has looked average at best in the games he's started. Jamario has an entire season under his belt where he was a solid contributor, I don't see any one justification to give Joey a starting role with what he has shown. Now if Moon stinks it up in the regular season as well for say the first 10 or so games, all bets are off. Sam doesn't owe Jamario anything, but the starting spot should be his to lose at this point.

I still can't believe the majority on this board want JOEY to start...This seems ridiculous to me.

[08HEMI]

so far, he is quite consistent.

he's consistenly in Sam's pre-season doghouse.
he consistently refuses to slash and attack the rim.

at least with Joey, you get some great nights once in a while.

i would love to start Moon against players that are lean and lanky, like Deng. he's a great fit. otherwise....

Moon isn't the first player to come out slow in pre season, I think it's going to take a lot more for Sam to find a reason to NOT to start Moon to begin the season. Joey has has been out half the pre season and has looked average at best in the games he's started. Jamario has an entire season under his belt where he was a solid contributor, I don't see any one justification to give Joey a starting role with what he has shown. Now if Moon stinks it up in the regular season as well for say the first 10 or so games, all bets are off. Sam doesn't owe Jamario anything, but the starting spot should be his to lose at this point.

I still can't believe the majority on this board want JOEY to start...This seems ridiculous to me.

You talking about Sam Mitchell here, a guy who started Bargnani at SF for the first time in game one of the playoffs, a guy who is known to pull people off the IR and start them over the past four years. Nothing Sam Mitchell does should shock you any longer. On Joey starting the past three games I happen to agree with him and I hope it stays that way.

[Kosta]

my comparison list:

Moon:

Advantages -
better 1-on-1 defender
better shot blocker
better defending long, lean 3s
better hops
better bball IQ (but not by much)

Graham:

Advantages -
better midrange game
better 3 point shot (but i would have to pull up the stats to prove it)
better at banging low
better all-around athleticism (but I'm not sure if/how that translates to on-court game)
better at slashing (but not by much)

my conclusion:
-start Joey if you want more on the O end
-start Moon if you want a better defender against Deng et al.

Mid range game is the only read advantage Joey has on Moon, that and his physicality and size. But Joey doesn't know how to use his strength in a good way as he's always fouling guys. Moon is more explosive athletically, Joey might be a better slasher but he doesn't really know how to use it in real games, he'll either get stripped, commit an offensive foul and is not good at finishing or drawing fouls. Moon isn't the highest I.Q player but he's a whole lot damn smarter and less mechanical out on the court than Joey. Really, Moon to me is the superior player.

[Kosta]

so far, he is quite consistent.

he's consistenly in Sam's pre-season doghouse.
he consistently refuses to slash and attack the rim.

at least with Joey, you get some great nights once in a while.

i would love to start Moon against players that are lean and lanky, like Deng. he's a great fit. otherwise....

Moon isn't the first player to come out slow in pre season, I think it's going to take a lot more for Sam to find a reason to NOT to start Moon to begin the season. Joey has has been out half the pre season and has looked average at best in the games he's started. Jamario has an entire season under his belt where he was a solid contributor, I don't see any one justification to give Joey a starting role with what he has shown. Now if Moon stinks it up in the regular season as well for say the first 10 or so games, all bets are off. Sam doesn't owe Jamario anything, but the starting spot should be his to lose at this point.

I still can't believe the majority on this board want JOEY to start...This seems ridiculous to me.

You talking about Sam Mitchell here, a guy who started Bargnani at SF for the first time in game one of the playoffs, a guy who is known to pull people off the IR and start them over the past four years. Nothing Sam Mitchell does should shock you any longer. On Joey starting the past three games I happen to agree with him and I hope it stays that way.

I see this situation differently then you, to me Sam is only starting Graham because he's trying to get his confidence up and giving him a shot to make the rotation, I don't think he has any shot to make the S.L, at least not until Moon practically hands it to him if he continues to struggle when the real games start, but even then I'm not sure Kapono wouldn't get the nod over Joey as well. At the same time this might be lighting a fire under Moon's a$$, kind of sending him a message not to get complacent and over confident or he could lose his spot. However, I expect a starting line-up of O'Neal/Bosh/Moon/Parker/Calderon to finish off the pre tomorrow vs Denver and this line-up to stay in tact heading into the opener.

[The_Hater]

Moon is clearly the better player of the 2. Other than his mid-range jumper and scoring in the post, Moon is superior to Graham in all aspects of the game including 3-point shooting.

That said, Moon's defense and rebounding might be better utilized playing beside Kapono and Bargs on the 2nd unit. He fills in their weaknesses.

[08HEMI]

my comparison list:

Moon:

Advantages -
better 1-on-1 defender
better shot blocker
better defending long, lean 3s
better hops
better bball IQ (but not by much)

Graham:

Advantages -
better midrange game
better 3 point shot (but i would have to pull up the stats to prove it)
better at banging low
better all-around athleticism (but I'm not sure if/how that translates to on-court game)
better at slashing (but not by much)

my conclusion:
-start Joey if you want more on the O end
-start Moon if you want a better defender against Deng et al.

Not so sure about the hops part, Joey can get up and fly to. Defensively no question Moon is better, but looking at the two I would say Joey is potentially a better all around player is he can stay in good joey mode.

[HumbleBumbleBee]

Kapono

Crap on D, but the mistakes he may make, I'm hoping CB and JO can help make up for...I'd rather have him out there chucking shots than having Moon (and I like the guy) shooting from far.

JK will continue to be garbage if he's playing with the second unit

[Kosta]

Moon is clearly the better player of the 2. Other than his mid-range jumper and scoring in the post, Moon is superior to Graham in all aspects of the game including 3-point shooting.

That said, Moon's defense and rebounding might be better utilized playing beside Kapono and Bargs on the 2nd unit. He fills in their weaknesses.

Yeah, maybe. But is it worth having him off the bench at the expense of our starting line-up?

[Kosta]

Not so sure about the hops part, Joey can get up and fly to. Defensively no question Moon is better, but looking at the two I would say Joey is potentially a better all around player is he can stay in good joey mode.

Good Joey comes out to play as often as great Moon does, and great Moon is a lot better than good Joey, I seem to recall several 3-4 steal, 4-5 block, double digit board games, etc. Great Moon is Shawm Marion lite, is good Joey even better than normal Jamario?

[jalenrose#5]

Kosta you gotta stop with this Joey hate. Joey has played damn well for a guy out all preseason. He's doing all the right things, driving to the basket, getting to the line, throwing down the odd dunk, playing decent D and not looking like a black hole out there.

You say Moon has established himself....well it's only one year he's been in the NBA, and the league has figured him out already. Moon has not adjusted from what I can see and still continues to take poor percentage shots. Even his high percentage ones he's missing. I seem to remember a blown finger roll last night.

Great Moon gives you 10 pts 10 rbs 2 blks 2 stls .45% FG%
Great Joey gives you 16 pts 7 bds 1 blk 1 stl .50% FG%

Nowhere did SMitch say that the starters were set in stone and neither did he say he wasn't going to give a starting spot to someone who showed during the preseason that they deserved it. And so far, other than Parker (our other "starter") Joey has been out best wing player (in limited action, which is sad)

[RonaldArtest]

Haha, the poll allows you to choose up to 2 choices. Guess what? I voted for both! I'm awesome, high-five!

But in all seriousness, I vote for Kapono.

[Kosta]

Kosta you gotta stop with this Joey hate. Joey has played damn well for a guy out all preseason. He's doing all the right things, driving to the basket, getting to the line, throwing down the odd dunk, playing decent D and not looking like a black hole out there.

You say Moon has established himself....well it's only one year he's been in the NBA, and the league has figured him out already. Moon has not adjusted from what I can see and still continues to take poor percentage shots. Even his high percentage ones he's missing. I seem to remember a blown finger roll last night.

Great Moon gives you 10 pts 10 rbs 2 blks 2 stls .45% FG%
Great Joey gives you 16 pts 7 bds 1 blk 1 stl .50% FG%

Nowhere did SMitch say that the starters were set in stone and neither did he say he wasn't going to give a starting spot to someone who showed during the preseason that they deserved it. And so far, other than Parker (our other "starter") Joey has been out best wing player (in limited action, which is sad)

Moon in 4 games started:

16 minutes vs Cleveland, 3 points, 2 assists, 2 boards, only 2 shots. W
27 minutes vs New York 10 points, 9 boards, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 4-8. W
27 minutes vs Philly 7 points, 10 boards, 1 steal, 2-6. L
20 minutes vs CSKA 1 point, 4 boards., 2 shots. W

Joey Graham 3 games started:

27 minutes vs Minny, 12 points, 4 boards, 1 assist, 1 steal, 4-9 shooting. L
22 minutes vs Clippers, 3 points, 5 boards, 1 assist. 0-3. W
17 minutes vs Lakers, 9 points, 3 boards, 2 assists 1 steal, 4 fouls. L

Moon's 2 best games were significantly better than Graham's 2 best games, which were both in losses btw. Where's all this Joey is outplaying Moon coming from? And since when is Joey ever good for 16 and 7? That one stretch of like 15 games to end the '06-'07 season where it took Garbo's injury for him to get p.t? That same season where he fizzled out in the Nets playoff series as a starter for 5 games? Sam doesn't need to say anything, it's common sense to me. Jamario has earned a lot more up until now then Joey ever has and he deserves the spot when the real games start. Again, the only reason Joey is starting and getting minutes right now is because the coaching staff wants to see if he can make the rotation and help out the bench, I think I remember Joey even talking about being a spark plug off the bench for them in an interview for Raptors Today. Even he knows his role...And this is not to say Moon is going to stay starter no matter what, he better get his sh-t together when the season starts or he'll be sitting on the bench beside Joey with Kapono getting big minutes.

Oh and you mentioned what "good Joey" gives you once every 2 weeks. Let's look over what average Moon gives you every night. 8.5 points, 6.2 boards, 1.2 assists, 1.0 steals, 1.4 blocks, 48.5% shooting! (how did you get 45%?) and he can hit the occasional 3 at a 33% clip (which isn't terrible). He gives you the better rebounding, shot blocking, man to man D on the perimeter/interior you say as well? Well damn, what exactly does good Joey do better again?

Here's a nice tidbit as well, Joey Graham (our 16th overall pick) who was part of the '05-'06 27 win ball club has started only 48 games over his career. Moon as a rookie has already started 75 games as an un-drafted D-league pick-up.

[robertjanssen007]

okay okay. Moon is clearly a better player than Graham but we need his energy off the bench. I say gamble with Graham and see if he has any worth at the start of the game rather than Sam bringing him in at the end of a quarter.

[Kosta]

okay okay. Moon is clearly a better player than Graham but we need his energy off the bench. I say gamble with Graham and see if he has any worth at the start of the game rather than Sam bringing him in at the end of a quarter.

I'll tell you what we don't need, Joey Graham starting.

[damadmonk]

I dont' really care who starts.

I just would like to see Moon play with Barg. Moon's rebounding ability makes up for Barg's short comings.

[08HEMI]

Moon in 4 games started:

16 minutes vs Cleveland, 3 points, 2 assists, 2 boards, only 2 shots. W 0-0 FT
27 minutes vs New York 10 points, 9 boards, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 4-8. W 0-0 FT
27 minutes vs Philly 7 points, 10 boards, 1 steal, 2-6. L 2-2 FT
20 minutes vs CSKA 1 point, 4 boards., 2 shots. W 1-2 FT

He went to the line twice in four games

Joey Graham 3 games started:

27 minutes vs Minny, 12 points, 4 boards, 1 assist, 1 steal, 4-9 shooting. L 4-6 FT
22 minutes vs Clippers, 3 points, 5 boards, 1 assist. 0-3. W 3-6 FT
17 minutes vs Lakers, 9 points, 3 boards, 2 assists 1 steal, 4 fouls. L 5-7 FT

Moon- not good on offense, good on defense, good rebounder, good blocker

Graham- Decent on offense, defense needs a little work but not horrible, good rebounder, can block when in position, and the most important thing here is getting to the rim and attacking the basket something you failed to show in your stats.

FTA is key here and I edited your post to show it, if your wondering what moon did about getting to the line since Joey took over the starting spot he went to the line once in three games for a grand total of three trips to the line over seven games.

Im sorry thats not good enough ESPECIALLY when the coach tells you to use the preseason to attack the rim.