Patrick McCaw is not a NBA caliber player

[Johnny Bball]

Do I need to post this guy's advanced statistics again that indicate he's one of the worst players in the league and has no business playing minutes? I can.

If you're going to play 4 on 5 offensively every possession, you might as well do that with somebody who also plays defence (i.e. not McCaw).

Go ahead. Post the difference between last month when he started with a completely injured lineup and this month with a normal lineup while you're at it. Go ahead. It's not going to stop you from needlessly exaggerating and saying he's not an NBA player and is a terrible defensive player.

RPM: -2.07 (ranked 417th in the league)
RAPM: -1.35 (ranked 437th in the league)
PIPM: -2.24 (ranked 431st in the league)

He is objectively terrible.

You see my point then about context from last month then? And DRPM isn't negative since it's been updated, and although I think that stat is garbage, most people that hate McCaw don't. Not that they will bother to post it anymore though.

[Randle McMurphy]

Patrick McCaw this season has a 0.079 WS/48, a -1.0 BPM, a 0.2 VORP, a -2.24 PIPM (431st out of 495 eligible players in the NBA), a -2.07 RPM (417th out of 474 eligible players in the NBA), and a -3.8 RAPTOR rating (14th on the Raptors and 26th worst in NBA among players with more than 600 minutes played).

The intangibles, though.

[Raps in 4]

Go ahead. Post the difference between last month when he started with a completely injured lineup and this month with a normal lineup while you're at it. Go ahead. It's not going to stop you from needlessly exaggerating and saying he's not an NBA player and is a terrible defensive player.

RPM: -2.07 (ranked 417th in the league)
RAPM: -1.35 (ranked 437th in the league)
PIPM: -2.24 (ranked 431st in the league)

He is objectively terrible.

You see my point then about context from last month then? And DRPM isn't negative since it's been updated, and although I think that stat is garbage, most people that hate McCaw don't. Not that they will bother to post it anymore though.

What context? He's been consistently terrible all season. Almost everyone on this team has had to deal with injuries, or carrying extra load while others are injured.

And I posted his defensive numbers later. Sure he's not a negative defender, but the numbers are mediocre for someone who is such a massive negative on offence.

DRPM: +0.11 (ranked 216th in the league)
DRAPM: +0.07 (ranked 237th in the league)
DPIPM: +0.26 (ranked 169th in the league)

He does nothing out there. He's just a body. Sure he doesn't waste shots or create turnovers, but he also doesn't score or pass or lock opposing players down. A team with aspirations of contending can't afford to have someone like that on the floor (especially when better options are available).

[Johnny Bball]

RPM: -2.07 (ranked 417th in the league)
RAPM: -1.35 (ranked 437th in the league)
PIPM: -2.24 (ranked 431st in the league)

He is objectively terrible.

You see my point then about context from last month then? And DRPM isn't negative since it's been updated, and although I think that stat is garbage, most people that hate McCaw don't. Not that they will bother to post it anymore though.

What context? He's been consistently terrible all season. Almost everyone on this team has had to deal with injuries, or carrying extra load while others are injured.

And I posted his defensive numbers later. Sure he's not a negative defender, but the numbers are mediocre for someone who is such a massive negative on offence.

DRPM: +0.11 (ranked 216th in the league)
DRAPM: +0.07 (ranked 237th in the league)
DPIPM: +0.26 (ranked 169th in the league)

He does nothing out there. He's just a body. Sure he doesn't waste shots or create turnovers, but he also doesn't score or pass or lock opposing players down. A team with aspirations of contending can't afford to have someone like that on the floor (especially when better options are available).

He as worse in December when starting. To the point it dragged down every metric as he was hurt in November and then had to start in the worst stretch we had. And once back with the bench they at least start moving in the right direction. You start TD those games and I guarantee he doesn't look like the same with superhero advanced metrics and he does right now. Just context.

Look... people keep asking why he plays. I keep saying his defense is pretty good and trying to somewhat balance the exaggerations. Nobody wants to listen and just calls him terrible on both ends. He would be a bit above average in DRPM for small forwards. 38th out of 90 SFs or whatever even with that stretch? You guys are the ones using that metric as the yardstick on defense but still calling him terrible on that end.

That's all. I'm not even saying he's great, or that he's all around good. Just what he is decent at. And why he probably plays.

And again, I doubt he sees tons of floor in the playoffs when we shorten to 7-8 guys. But we need to shore up SF/PF so he isn't playing that much. Or for you guys, at all.

And he played 15 mpg for GSW those seasons I think. I mean... I think they had aspirations of contending. Just saying.

[2019nbachamps]

i wonder if any of the McCaw obsessives have contemplated the fact that they actually don't know anything about basketball

They don't. And they admitted as much in this thread.

Their argument so far has been: "Who cares about stats and intangibles if we're winning. Trust Nurse."

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/team/28#tab-offensive_overview

Edit: whoops forgot to type

McCaw is bang average. He does his role well. He doesnt make many mistakes. He has a decent point production for his crazy low usage. You need guys like this.

Eventually, he will be expendable maybe as early as next year....maybe 2021 when we know what we will be done with all this cap space.

And of course, the general argument still stands. You here talking like people who are "meh" on McCaw dont know basketball but our championship head coach plays him so which one of us really dont know?

Sent from my LG-H915 using RealGM mobile app

He passes up open shots every single game. Every single game. That is not a minor mistake, but a major one. It tells opposing defenses they do not need to guard him. It tells our players passing to him is a waste of time. There was a game 2 weeks ago where Lowry spoke to McCaw during a timeout after he passed on an open shot. Its unacceptable.

[2019nbachamps]

You see my point then about context from last month then? And DRPM isn't negative since it's been updated, and although I think that stat is garbage, most people that hate McCaw don't. Not that they will bother to post it anymore though.

What context? He's been consistently terrible all season. Almost everyone on this team has had to deal with injuries, or carrying extra load while others are injured.

And I posted his defensive numbers later. Sure he's not a negative defender, but the numbers are mediocre for someone who is such a massive negative on offence.

DRPM: +0.11 (ranked 216th in the league)
DRAPM: +0.07 (ranked 237th in the league)
DPIPM: +0.26 (ranked 169th in the league)

He does nothing out there. He's just a body. Sure he doesn't waste shots or create turnovers, but he also doesn't score or pass or lock opposing players down. A team with aspirations of contending can't afford to have someone like that on the floor (especially when better options are available).

He as worse in December when starting. To the point it dragged down every metric as he was hurt in November and then had to start in the worst stretch we had. And once back with the bench they at least start moving in the right direction. You start TD those games and I guarantee he doesn't look like the same with superhero advanced metrics and he does right now. Just context.

Look... people keep asking why he plays. I keep saying his defense is pretty good and trying to somewhat balance the exaggerations. Nobody wants to listen and just calls him terrible on both ends. He would be a bit above average in DRPM for small forwards. 38th out of 90 SFs or whatever even with that stretch? You guys are the ones using that metric as the yardstick on defense but still calling him terrible on that end.

That's all. I'm not even saying he's great, or that he's all around good. Just what he is decent at. And why he probably plays.

And again, I doubt he sees tons of floor in the playoffs when we shorten to 7-8 guys. But we need to shore up SF/PF so he isn't playing that much. Or for you guys, at all.

And he played 15 mpg for GSW those seasons I think. I mean... I think they had aspirations of contending. Just saying.

GSW has played garbage players during their run because of their lack of cap room. When you have all your money locked up on 4-5 players then you're going to need to use guys like McCaw. Every top team has had guys like McCaw play. In our case, it is inexcusable. Our roster is pretty balanced. We have 10 guys good enough for the NBA, then you have like 5 other guys who are finding their way in the NBA or on the brink of being out of the league. McCaw should be among those guys, not a key player in our rotation.

[Boogie!]

Wow what a rant. You seem very confident.

I myself also question why McCaw plays so much -- its not abundantly clear to me what his case for playing time is. But collectively we have to concede that 1. Nurse obviously knows what he is doing, 2. The raptors staff have a plethora of data and analytics we dont see which may shed more insight into mccaws impact and 3. They see his capabilities in practice and internally. So really when someone justifies why he plays on here, its less bravado and confirmation bias, its more trying address what the staff sees in this guy that .merits playing time.

Fyi ... you dont know more than our coach. Just making sure you know that.

I’m assuming you never ever complain or have issues with any coaching decision or player usage?

I question coaching decisions all the time.

Then it makes no sense to use "nurse knows more" as part of your argument. If you believed that then there would be no reason to question any coaching decision ever.

[TheWave]

What context? He's been consistently terrible all season. Almost everyone on this team has had to deal with injuries, or carrying extra load while others are injured.

And I posted his defensive numbers later. Sure he's not a negative defender, but the numbers are mediocre for someone who is such a massive negative on offence.

DRPM: +0.11 (ranked 216th in the league)
DRAPM: +0.07 (ranked 237th in the league)
DPIPM: +0.26 (ranked 169th in the league)

He does nothing out there. He's just a body. Sure he doesn't waste shots or create turnovers, but he also doesn't score or pass or lock opposing players down. A team with aspirations of contending can't afford to have someone like that on the floor (especially when better options are available).

He as worse in December when starting. To the point it dragged down every metric as he was hurt in November and then had to start in the worst stretch we had. And once back with the bench they at least start moving in the right direction. You start TD those games and I guarantee he doesn't look like the same with superhero advanced metrics and he does right now. Just context.

Look... people keep asking why he plays. I keep saying his defense is pretty good and trying to somewhat balance the exaggerations. Nobody wants to listen and just calls him terrible on both ends. He would be a bit above average in DRPM for small forwards. 38th out of 90 SFs or whatever even with that stretch? You guys are the ones using that metric as the yardstick on defense but still calling him terrible on that end.

That's all. I'm not even saying he's great, or that he's all around good. Just what he is decent at. And why he probably plays.

And again, I doubt he sees tons of floor in the playoffs when we shorten to 7-8 guys. But we need to shore up SF/PF so he isn't playing that much. Or for you guys, at all.

And he played 15 mpg for GSW those seasons I think. I mean... I think they had aspirations of contending. Just saying.

GSW has played garbage players during their run because of their lack of cap room. When you have all your money locked up on 4-5 players then you're going to need to use guys like McCaw. Every top team has had guys like McCaw play. In our case, it is inexcusable. Our roster is pretty balanced. We have 10 guys good enough for the NBA, then you have like 5 other guys who are finding their way in the NBA or on the brink of being out of the league. McCaw should be among those guys, not a key player in our rotation.

He should be traded, discarded, waived or whatever. He is a non factor with no redeeming qualities other than the 4m cap

[Randle McMurphy]

Maybe today I should post Davis' advanced stats instead and compare.

[hankscorpioLA]

Today's game against the Bulls should end this thread...but not for the reason you are thinking.

The Raptors need BOTH players.

As much as today's game showed why Terrence Davis is the future, it also showed why we need McCaw now.

Because Terrence Davis CAN do this. But he can't be counted on to do this. Not yet. Not as a rookie. Not for the Toronto Raptors.

Davis committed 4 fouls and had two turnovers. He commits a lot of fouls and a lot of turnovers. Some days, like today, he makes up for it. Other days, like last week against San Antonio, he doesn't, and he is terrible.

Patrick McCaw had 0 fouls and 0 turnovers. He also only took 5 shots. He is a low usage player who doesn't make mistakes. He isn't going to win you any games, but he won't lose you any either.

The raw, talented rookie

The mature, consistent role player.

Like yin and yang.

It's almost too cliche.

I could write the scene where McCaw turns to Nurse and says "Coach...it's Game 7...all our starters are out with the flu...I know you trust me...but I trust him."

Not a dry eye in the house.

[2019nbachamps]

Today's game against the Bulls should end this thread...but not for the reason you are thinking.

The Raptors need BOTH players.

As much as today's game showed why Terrence Davis is the future, it also showed why we need McCaw now.

Because Terrence Davis CAN do this. But he can't be counted on to do this. Not yet. Not as a rookie. Not for the Toronto Raptors.

Davis committed 4 fouls and had two turnovers. He commits a lot of fouls and a lot of turnovers. Some days, like today, he makes up for it. Other days, like last week against San Antonio, he doesn't, and he is terrible.

Patrick McCaw had 0 fouls and 0 turnovers. He also only took 5 shots. He is a low usage player who doesn't make mistakes. He isn't going to win you any games, but he won't lose you any either.

The raw, talented rookie

The mature, consistent role player.

Like yin and yang.

It's almost too cliche.

I could write the scene where McCaw turns to Nurse and says "Coach...it's Game 7...all our starters are out with the flu...I know you trust me...but I trust him."

Not a dry eye in the house.

That's a unique take.

TD wouldn't have scored 31 without McCaw

[d00lttle]

Today's game against the Bulls should end this thread...but not for the reason you are thinking.

The Raptors need BOTH players.

As much as today's game showed why Terrence Davis is the future, it also showed why we need McCaw now.

Because Terrence Davis CAN do this. But he can't be counted on to do this. Not yet. Not as a rookie. Not for the Toronto Raptors.

Davis committed 4 fouls and had two turnovers. He commits a lot of fouls and a lot of turnovers. Some days, like today, he makes up for it. Other days, like last week against San Antonio, he doesn't, and he is terrible.

Patrick McCaw had 0 fouls and 0 turnovers. He also only took 5 shots. He is a low usage player who doesn't make mistakes. He isn't going to win you any games, but he won't lose you any either.

The raw, talented rookie

The mature, consistent role player.

Like yin and yang.

It's almost too cliche.

I could write the scene where McCaw turns to Nurse and says "Coach...it's Game 7...all our starters are out with the flu...I know you trust me...but I trust him."

Not a dry eye in the house.

Interesting, so McCaw is like a buffer solution for the team so that it's pH level does not change much when a strong base or acid is added.

Nurse the mad scientist at it again.

[Zeno]

Today's game against the Bulls should end this thread...but not for the reason you are thinking.

The Raptors need BOTH players.

As much as today's game showed why Terrence Davis is the future, it also showed why we need McCaw now.

Because Terrence Davis CAN do this. But he can't be counted on to do this. Not yet. Not as a rookie. Not for the Toronto Raptors.

Davis committed 4 fouls and had two turnovers. He commits a lot of fouls and a lot of turnovers. Some days, like today, he makes up for it. Other days, like last week against San Antonio, he doesn't, and he is terrible.

Patrick McCaw had 0 fouls and 0 turnovers. He also only took 5 shots. He is a low usage player who doesn't make mistakes. He isn't going to win you any games, but he won't lose you any either.

The raw, talented rookie

The mature, consistent role player.

Like yin and yang.

It's almost too cliche.

I could write the scene where McCaw turns to Nurse and says "Coach...it's Game 7...all our starters are out with the flu...I know you trust me...but I trust him."

Not a dry eye in the house.

Yeah I agree, Not that I want to see McCaw in the playoffs either but those thinking TD will automatically produce against top competition in playoff situations are expecting too much...of any rookie.

[Grew]

This thread is starting to make me think most people who post here have never even played on a basketball team... Its not logical to think every player on our team is gonna be capable of scoring 20 points on any given night, its not logical to think every player on our team is gonna be able to shut down the best players in the NBA. Its amazing how many 2 way players we have had over the last 2 seasons, Most teams in the league do not have anything close to what we have been enjoying in that regard. Patrick McCaw is a very poor mans version of a 2 way player and he can play multiple positions on both ends of the court. This is not NBA2K we aren't gonna be able to make a roster 12 deep of 2 way players that can start on any other team in the league. Pat McCaw is the guy who just goes out there to not mess anything up and let our better players shine, because he fits. If your only beef with him is you think he's gonna get the same minutes in the playoffs and make us lose, well I guarantee you that will not happen, if he's hurting us and there is another option, Nick Nurse will go to it. I would rather see TD play 30 minutes a game too, but in reality he's a rookie, an undrafted rookie. Rookies get tired adjusting to a long season, rookies lose focus, rookies often have trouble adjusting to the massive increase in pressure just like most humans would. The fact TD hasn't hit any type of wall yet, is a testament to both TD and the Staff. I want TD to be energized and confident when the playoffs roll around, a big part of why TD is looking so good is how they have handled his development so far. For right now just let Patrick McCaw be the worst part of our awesome rotation and accept it, someone has to be, and we have relied more heavily on worse players in the past (cough cough..Bargs). Stop with the negativity towards Pat and just hope he plays to the best of his ability.

[hankscorpioLA]

Today's game against the Bulls should end this thread...but not for the reason you are thinking.

The Raptors need BOTH players.

As much as today's game showed why Terrence Davis is the future, it also showed why we need McCaw now.

Because Terrence Davis CAN do this. But he can't be counted on to do this. Not yet. Not as a rookie. Not for the Toronto Raptors.

Davis committed 4 fouls and had two turnovers. He commits a lot of fouls and a lot of turnovers. Some days, like today, he makes up for it. Other days, like last week against San Antonio, he doesn't, and he is terrible.

Patrick McCaw had 0 fouls and 0 turnovers. He also only took 5 shots. He is a low usage player who doesn't make mistakes. He isn't going to win you any games, but he won't lose you any either.

The raw, talented rookie

The mature, consistent role player.

Like yin and yang.

It's almost too cliche.

I could write the scene where McCaw turns to Nurse and says "Coach...it's Game 7...all our starters are out with the flu...I know you trust me...but I trust him."

Not a dry eye in the house.

That's a unique take.

TD wouldn't have scored 31 without McCaw

I can see how my take is unorthodox.

Your take on my take is insane.

[hankscorpioLA]

Today's game against the Bulls should end this thread...but not for the reason you are thinking.

The Raptors need BOTH players.

As much as today's game showed why Terrence Davis is the future, it also showed why we need McCaw now.

Because Terrence Davis CAN do this. But he can't be counted on to do this. Not yet. Not as a rookie. Not for the Toronto Raptors.

Davis committed 4 fouls and had two turnovers. He commits a lot of fouls and a lot of turnovers. Some days, like today, he makes up for it. Other days, like last week against San Antonio, he doesn't, and he is terrible.

Patrick McCaw had 0 fouls and 0 turnovers. He also only took 5 shots. He is a low usage player who doesn't make mistakes. He isn't going to win you any games, but he won't lose you any either.

The raw, talented rookie

The mature, consistent role player.

Like yin and yang.

It's almost too cliche.

I could write the scene where McCaw turns to Nurse and says "Coach...it's Game 7...all our starters are out with the flu...I know you trust me...but I trust him."

Not a dry eye in the house.

Yeah I agree, Not that I want to see McCaw in the playoffs either but those thinking TD will automatically produce against top competition in playoff situations are expecting too much...of any rookie.

Defensive possession up by 2 with 20 seconds to go,

if you only have these two options, which player do you want to see on the floor?

If you don't say McCaw, you are lying.

[Alfred]

I don’t know if calling someone consistent when they are regularly putting up sub-5-point games is a positive thing. It’s like being consistently late for work.

[JN]

It is also not necessarily a McCaw or TD thing when it comes to minutes... they play a lot together.
I sort of agree as noted above they both have roles on this team. Would like one expanded, and one reduced, but they both can contribute.

[Johnny Bball]

Today's game against the Bulls should end this thread...but not for the reason you are thinking.

The Raptors need BOTH players.

As much as today's game showed why Terrence Davis is the future, it also showed why we need McCaw now.

Because Terrence Davis CAN do this. But he can't be counted on to do this. Not yet. Not as a rookie. Not for the Toronto Raptors.

Davis committed 4 fouls and had two turnovers. He commits a lot of fouls and a lot of turnovers. Some days, like today, he makes up for it. Other days, like last week against San Antonio, he doesn't, and he is terrible.

Patrick McCaw had 0 fouls and 0 turnovers. He also only took 5 shots. He is a low usage player who doesn't make mistakes. He isn't going to win you any games, but he won't lose you any either.

The raw, talented rookie

The mature, consistent role player.

Like yin and yang.

It's almost too cliche.

I could write the scene where McCaw turns to Nurse and says "Coach...it's Game 7...all our starters are out with the flu...I know you trust me...but I trust him."

Not a dry eye in the house.

That's a unique take.

TD wouldn't have scored 31 without McCaw

I think the more interesting question (and maybe what you're getting at) is what does he score with Norm on the floor instead of McCaw.

Hellova a game by Davis. Everyone on the bench mobbed him twice. I must have given him 3 standing Ohs.

[Hero_Panda]

I don’t know if calling someone consistent when they are regularly putting up sub-5-point games is a positive thing. It’s like being consistently late for work.

I see McCaw and his relationship with Raptor fans more like this:
https://youtu.be/gYgveD5B-V0?t=483