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Merit wrote:Raptors_Dynasty wrote:He’s Ben Simmons with worse passing, defence, handles, and only slightly better shooting
Goof grief.
Merit wrote:ConSarnit wrote:Merit wrote:
The shooting needs to improve, agreed fully. That’s pretty well the only concern I have about his game. He’s young enough that he can still get better.
He would still create in the pick and roll. He doesn’t have to bring the ball up court, but he can as a one man fast break after a rebound.
The counter narrative to your suggestion is that he’s been playing injured or tired. I think it’s both. He’s propping up all bench units and getting looks for others that are bricked. Do I agree with your sentiment, yes - largely. He definitely needs to shoot better. However I’m far more optimistic about his shooting improving and his ability to play up with better players - if for no other reason than he’s done it already. Rookie Scottie did it.
If we’re talking about efficiency in transition then here are Barnes scoring ranks by year:
40th percentile
24th percentile
29th percentile
22nd percentile
He’s been a poor transition scorer every year.
Now let’s look at pnr ball handler efficiency:
94th (on very low volume)
18th
48th
54th
He’s making progress there but he’s still average.
This is the scoring efficiency by play type I am talking about. It’s not just as simple as ramping up transition because he’s also not a good scorer there. He also wasn’t even efficient in his rookie season (55 TS% which is below league average and he shot 30% from 3). He’s never been efficient regardless of who he’s played with.
If he has been playing injured then that is insane considering it’s a completely lost season. If he were injured we would have shut him down already. The tired excuse doesn’t fly either as he’s only played 60 games, he’s 23, playing a career low in mpg and his usage isn’t that high.
Bumping this up to reinforce my argument about why Scottie’s offensive output has dropped so suddenly and significantly this year.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/raptors-barnes-playing-through-discomfort-important-for-big-picture/
In it there’s a Blake Murphy tweet and quote that further substantiates this. If there’s anyone who has credibility within Raptors media it’s Blake.
So yes, injury has been a factor.
PushDaRock wrote:Truthfully, I think we are probably overrating Scottie's passing ability. It's obviously good for his size but he's not an elite playmaker by any stretch.
On the year, Scottie's AST% is at 27.6%. Meanwhile, RJ's is at 27.8%. I haven't looked at the data but from the eye test, RJ to me also creates more assists of the spoon fed variety setting up an easy layup or dunk at the rim while Scottie's are more of the kick outs, quick swing to the open man variety. That to me would make sense because of all the rim pressure RJ generates vs Scottie who struggles to beat defenders off the dribble.
tsherkin wrote:Merit wrote:Raptors_Dynasty wrote:He’s Ben Simmons with worse passing, defence, handles, and only slightly better shooting
Goof grief.
To be fair, Simmons is considerably more athletic, so his ability to be better isn't incredibly surprising. He was a much better overall prospect until his mind broke his potential apart.
Merit wrote:[
His mind and his back.
\Edit: I would take Ben Simmons as our backup 5 and third PG in a heartbeat. Heck I’d start him at the 5.
Simmons has never shot well. Not his free throws, nothing. To compare their shooting is ridiculous.
Tha Cynic wrote:Merit wrote:ConSarnit wrote:
If we’re talking about efficiency in transition then here are Barnes scoring ranks by year:
40th percentile
24th percentile
29th percentile
22nd percentile
He’s been a poor transition scorer every year.
Now let’s look at pnr ball handler efficiency:
94th (on very low volume)
18th
48th
54th
He’s making progress there but he’s still average.
This is the scoring efficiency by play type I am talking about. It’s not just as simple as ramping up transition because he’s also not a good scorer there. He also wasn’t even efficient in his rookie season (55 TS% which is below league average and he shot 30% from 3). He’s never been efficient regardless of who he’s played with.
If he has been playing injured then that is insane considering it’s a completely lost season. If he were injured we would have shut him down already. The tired excuse doesn’t fly either as he’s only played 60 games, he’s 23, playing a career low in mpg and his usage isn’t that high.
Bumping this up to reinforce my argument about why Scottie’s offensive output has dropped so suddenly and significantly this year.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/raptors-barnes-playing-through-discomfort-important-for-big-picture/
In it there’s a Blake Murphy tweet and quote that further substantiates this. If there’s anyone who has credibility within Raptors media it’s Blake.
So yes, injury has been a factor.
I have learned that when you try discussing with people online you will always find more negative than positive. You try a couple of times to make a point, but if it doesn’t work, you just say oh well and move on. I have the same mindset as you on this. He has been bad and clearly needs to work on his efficiency, but the play has suddenly dropped after he won player of the month. He hasn’t looked the same in a while. I had already noticed that he was clutching his right hand a ton in the last few months but I kept it to myself as we all know it would be considered an excuse. I think eventually I kept it in one of my posts a few days ago, but can’t remember if I deleted it. His scoring was always bad though, so you can’t just say it’s all because of the finger.
We now have comments that he has some sinister reason for playing when if you have watched Barnes his entire career he had never played for stats. My take is that he’s simply just trying to play as much as possible because he has already missed a ton of games for the last few seasons and he just wants to play. You can also see his stamina looks better than previous season and this is something he needs to work on.
I wouldn’t sit either if the organization came to me and told me to sit. It’s kind of funny how the Utah players have been sitting when at least one of them is going to lose their job because they’re helping Utah draft a high pick at their detriment. Heck, on our team RJ or IQ will probably be traded so that this years first round pick will replace them and they’re sitting so our team can tank.
Overall, I look forward to him hopefully getting better. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t, but I watch basketball for fun, and it’s a game of hope. It has become more mathematical recently but I like looking at possible reasons why a number looks like this and see if that takes care of itself. I also subscribe to stats so I can see what the numbers are saying. It’s very easy to pull numbers and make a quick decision. It isn’t rocket science when the numbers are right in front of you and in the end we all just want the Raptors to do well. This isn’t the season to make these extreme evaluations imo. We’ll see if hopefully he has a better scoring season next season. If not, Masai will make the necessary trades to make this team better.
What I do know is that next season looks exciting as heck. This should be a fun team to watch
Merit wrote:tsherkin wrote:Merit wrote:
Goof grief.
To be fair, Simmons is considerably more athletic, so his ability to be better isn't incredibly surprising. He was a much better overall prospect until his mind broke his potential apart.
His mind and his back. Edit: I would take Ben Simmons as our backup 5 and third PG in a heartbeat. Heck I’d start him at the 5.
Simmons has never shot well. Not his free throws, nothing. To compare their shooting is ridiculous.
ConSarnit wrote:Tha Cynic wrote:Merit wrote:
Bumping this up to reinforce my argument about why Scottie’s offensive output has dropped so suddenly and significantly this year.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/raptors-barnes-playing-through-discomfort-important-for-big-picture/
In it there’s a Blake Murphy tweet and quote that further substantiates this. If there’s anyone who has credibility within Raptors media it’s Blake.
So yes, injury has been a factor.
I have learned that when you try discussing with people online you will always find more negative than positive. You try a couple of times to make a point, but if it doesn’t work, you just say oh well and move on. I have the same mindset as you on this. He has been bad and clearly needs to work on his efficiency, but the play has suddenly dropped after he won player of the month. He hasn’t looked the same in a while. I had already noticed that he was clutching his right hand a ton in the last few months but I kept it to myself as we all know it would be considered an excuse. I think eventually I kept it in one of my posts a few days ago, but can’t remember if I deleted it. His scoring was always bad though, so you can’t just say it’s all because of the finger.
We now have comments that he has some sinister reason for playing when if you have watched Barnes his entire career he had never played for stats. My take is that he’s simply just trying to play as much as possible because he has already missed a ton of games for the last few seasons and he just wants to play. You can also see his stamina looks better than previous season and this is something he needs to work on.
I wouldn’t sit either if the organization came to me and told me to sit. It’s kind of funny how the Utah players have been sitting when at least one of them is going to lose their job because they’re helping Utah draft a high pick at their detriment. Heck, on our team RJ or IQ will probably be traded so that this years first round pick will replace them and they’re sitting so our team can tank.
Overall, I look forward to him hopefully getting better. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t, but I watch basketball for fun, and it’s a game of hope. It has become more mathematical recently but I like looking at possible reasons why a number looks like this and see if that takes care of itself. I also subscribe to stats so I can see what the numbers are saying. It’s very easy to pull numbers and make a quick decision. It isn’t rocket science when the numbers are right in front of you and in the end we all just want the Raptors to do well. This isn’t the season to make these extreme evaluations imo. We’ll see if hopefully he has a better scoring season next season. If not, Masai will make the necessary trades to make this team better.
What I do know is that next season looks exciting as heck. This should be a fun team to watch
This is all well and good but please explain the following:
Barnes terrible 3pt shooting this year: injury
Barnes career year from midrange: ?
Barnes FT% at career average: ?
You can see how the injury narrative doesn’t exactly line up here.
Very few people are making extreme evaluations. We have 4 full years of data. Hell, I’ve even said I think his shooting can still come around as we’ve seen some 3pt potential in the past and his midrange game has been good this year. We’re just looking at the whole picture so far and saying it’s not looking great and the longer it goes on the worse the outlook is. It’s not crazy to start questioning Barnes place on this team after 4 years given his lack of scoring development. I hope he turns it around as much as anyone.
JB7 wrote:There needs to be more context added around those 4 full years of data. First two seasons of his career, he was healthy (played 74 & 77 games) and the team was trying to win, however Scottie was playing under FVV, which created tension, and limited his involvement in the offense.
FVV leaves, and Scottie has his most productive start to the season, surrounded by Pascal, OG & Yak, leading to an AS selection. Then management goes through the process of striping down the team (Pascal & OG traded), begins to recoup assets, and because of injuries among other things, decides to tank the end of the season. This season the team essentially chose to tank / 'develop younger players' from the start. So no rushing of any players back from injuries, and relying on young/inexperienced lineups, to help the tank effort, which all clearly suppressed Scottie's numbers, since his game relies on the talent around him.
tsherkin wrote:JB7 wrote:There needs to be more context added around those 4 full years of data. First two seasons of his career, he was healthy (played 74 & 77 games) and the team was trying to win, however Scottie was playing under FVV, which created tension, and limited his involvement in the offense.
FVV leaves, and Scottie has his most productive start to the season, surrounded by Pascal, OG & Yak, leading to an AS selection. Then management goes through the process of striping down the team (Pascal & OG traded), begins to recoup assets, and because of injuries among other things, decides to tank the end of the season. This season the team essentially chose to tank / 'develop younger players' from the start. So no rushing of any players back from injuries, and relying on young/inexperienced lineups, to help the tank effort, which all clearly suppressed Scottie's numbers, since his game relies on the talent around him.
Ultimately, what this means is that Scottie needs to be in an ideal situation in order to not-suck at scoring. This means his scoring isn't functionally valuable to us, and speaks volumes about his ceiling. What interests me is if/how he'll adapt with BI and all that going on next year.
JB7 wrote:When Scottie was initially drafted, the player he referenced as someone he watched a lot of video of, was Magic.
That's why, I think you'll see the best of him when he is surrounded by players that can score like BQI. Their scoring will also create easier looks for him, which should help improve his efficiency.
tsherkin wrote:JB7 wrote:When Scottie was initially drafted, the player he referenced as someone he watched a lot of video of, was Magic.
Which was always a poor benchmark. He doesn't have the handles, the finishing ability, the vision or anything to be that sort of player. Love the emphasis on being unselfish and all that, but Penny and T-Mac both referenced Magic a lot too, and then went on to look absolutely nothing like that style of player. Scottie doesn't have Magic's post game, his jumper, his touch at the line, nothing. He's tall and he likes to pass. There have been loads of guys like. I understand we're talking about Scottie's POV and all, but it's sort of a weird one to manage because he lacks the tools.That's why, I think you'll see the best of him when he is surrounded by players that can score like BQI. Their scoring will also create easier looks for him, which should help improve his efficiency.
Why? Why would that improve his efficiency? I've been trying to corner ConSarnit to answer this question, but he keeps dodging me. We've seen Scottie at lower volume, and he was still a -1.4% rTS guy, or WORSE (his second season was about as bad as this year). He doesn't do terribly well in PnR, on cuts, he isn't impressive in transition, he blows donkeys as a C+S guy, he's an offensively incompetent shooter on wide open 3s.
What is it you think is going to change with a better team on which he can capitalize, based on the skillsets he has and hasn't shown so far?
ConSarnit wrote:Tha Cynic wrote:Merit wrote:
Bumping this up to reinforce my argument about why Scottie’s offensive output has dropped so suddenly and significantly this year.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/raptors-barnes-playing-through-discomfort-important-for-big-picture/
In it there’s a Blake Murphy tweet and quote that further substantiates this. If there’s anyone who has credibility within Raptors media it’s Blake.
So yes, injury has been a factor.
I have learned that when you try discussing with people online you will always find more negative than positive. You try a couple of times to make a point, but if it doesn’t work, you just say oh well and move on. I have the same mindset as you on this. He has been bad and clearly needs to work on his efficiency, but the play has suddenly dropped after he won player of the month. He hasn’t looked the same in a while. I had already noticed that he was clutching his right hand a ton in the last few months but I kept it to myself as we all know it would be considered an excuse. I think eventually I kept it in one of my posts a few days ago, but can’t remember if I deleted it. His scoring was always bad though, so you can’t just say it’s all because of the finger.
We now have comments that he has some sinister reason for playing when if you have watched Barnes his entire career he had never played for stats. My take is that he’s simply just trying to play as much as possible because he has already missed a ton of games for the last few seasons and he just wants to play. You can also see his stamina looks better than previous season and this is something he needs to work on.
I wouldn’t sit either if the organization came to me and told me to sit. It’s kind of funny how the Utah players have been sitting when at least one of them is going to lose their job because they’re helping Utah draft a high pick at their detriment. Heck, on our team RJ or IQ will probably be traded so that this years first round pick will replace them and they’re sitting so our team can tank.
Overall, I look forward to him hopefully getting better. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t, but I watch basketball for fun, and it’s a game of hope. It has become more mathematical recently but I like looking at possible reasons why a number looks like this and see if that takes care of itself. I also subscribe to stats so I can see what the numbers are saying. It’s very easy to pull numbers and make a quick decision. It isn’t rocket science when the numbers are right in front of you and in the end we all just want the Raptors to do well. This isn’t the season to make these extreme evaluations imo. We’ll see if hopefully he has a better scoring season next season. If not, Masai will make the necessary trades to make this team better.
What I do know is that next season looks exciting as heck. This should be a fun team to watch
This is all well and good but please explain the following:
Barnes terrible 3pt shooting this year: injury
Barnes career year from midrange: ?
Barnes FT% at career average: ?
You can see how the injury narrative doesn’t exactly line up here.
Very few people are making extreme evaluations. We have 4 full years of data. Hell, I’ve even said I think his shooting can still come around as we’ve seen some 3pt potential in the past and his midrange game has been good this year. We’re just looking at the whole picture so far and saying it’s not looking great and the longer it goes on the worse the outlook is. It’s not crazy to start questioning Barnes place on this team after 4 years given his lack of scoring development. I hope he turns it around as much as anyone.
JB7 wrote:I agree, he doesn't have the touch that Magic had, and that should be the biggest focus for him, which could also turnaround his efficiency.
In terms of Scottie's numbers, what were they for the first half of his 3rd season, probably the best starting lineup structured around him, until now?
I'm not saying Scottie is going to become Magic. It is merely that is how he views his game, as more all round, and therefore his impact will be felt in a number of different areas to help the team win, not just shooting/scoring.
And while Penny and T-Mac might have originally thought of themselves in that mold, their body types were clearly not the same as Magic and Scottie's. Magic could play C & PF, as can Scottie.
tsherkin wrote:JB7 wrote:When Scottie was initially drafted, the player he referenced as someone he watched a lot of video of, was Magic.
Which was always a poor benchmark. He doesn't have the handles, the finishing ability, the vision or anything to be that sort of player. Love the emphasis on being unselfish and all that, but Penny and T-Mac both referenced Magic a lot too, and then went on to look absolutely nothing like that style of player. Scottie doesn't have Magic's post game, his jumper, his touch at the line, nothing. He's tall and he likes to pass. There have been loads of guys like. I understand we're talking about Scottie's POV and all, but it's sort of a weird one to manage because he lacks the tools.That's why, I think you'll see the best of him when he is surrounded by players that can score like BQI. Their scoring will also create easier looks for him, which should help improve his efficiency.
Why? Why would that improve his efficiency? I've been trying to corner ConSarnit to answer this question, but he keeps dodging me. We've seen Scottie at lower volume, and he was still a -1.4% rTS guy, or WORSE (his second season was about as bad as this year). He doesn't do terribly well in PnR, on cuts, he isn't impressive in transition, he blows donkeys as a C+S guy, he's an offensively incompetent shooter on wide open 3s.
What is it you think is going to change with a better team on which he can capitalize, based on the skillsets he has and hasn't shown so far?
ConSarnit wrote:Merit wrote:tsherkin wrote:
To be fair, Simmons is considerably more athletic, so his ability to be better isn't incredibly surprising. He was a much better overall prospect until his mind broke his potential apart.
His mind and his back. Edit: I would take Ben Simmons as our backup 5 and third PG in a heartbeat. Heck I’d start him at the 5.
Simmons has never shot well. Not his free throws, nothing. To compare their shooting is ridiculous.
Simmons has never been able to play the 5 with any effectiveness. Simmons defensive strength is/was being able to be 6’10 and guard wings and guards. He’s never been a good rim protector.
If we were going to play small at the 5 it would make much more sense to put Barnes in that role as he’s a better rim protector than Simmons.
Starting Simmons at the 5 (especially on this team) is no recipe for any type of success.
Tripod wrote:The most confusing thing in here is some saying they would be quite fine with Simmons in our starting lineup. Crazy talk. Did Yak disappear?
Tripod wrote:The most confusing thing in here is some saying they would be quite fine with Simmons in our starting lineup. Crazy talk. Did Yak disappear?
Jadoogar wrote:Tripod wrote:The most confusing thing in here is some saying they would be quite fine with Simmons in our starting lineup. Crazy talk. Did Yak disappear?
Simmons isn't a center. A lot of people think he would be good in a Draymond type role but it's not a role Simmons has ever played before. It's not easy to turn someone into a center who has no center instincts. Raptors tried with the 6'9" experiment, it failed miserably.