Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[TheProfessor]

Yeah but Scottie was never a true 1, he never profiled as a true 1. It is a teams fault,

No no no. You said "the team failed to build around Scottie." But if he wasn't good enough to be a #1 (which he isn't), then that's a description of Scottie's insufficiencies. Again, a misdeployment, but there was never a chance that they COULD have built well around him in that focal role.

Do you really believe that Scottie is one of the worst scorers of the last 25 years.

He isn't a good volume scorer. What I said was that he was having one of the worst volume scoring seasons of the past 15 years. Which is objectively true. He doesn't get to the rim enough, he isn't elite at drawing fouls, he's a mediocre FT shooter, he is incompetent from 3, he doesn't have an elite middle game (this year he's making his 12-footers well enough, but that's not a foundation). He doesn't have elite speed. He doesn't have the tools to be an elite scorer. This is known. This was his projection before the draft and it remains true 4 years into his career. It isn't a surprise. He isn't good enough to be a focal scorer, so he's bad in that role. He's a good player, he's capable of being a positive contributor on a winning team, just not in that specific role.

You can tank and still give your future star help, only one player is shooting above 38% from 3 for the Toronto raptors.

He isn't a future star. Not in the sense of being a focal piece. He's an accent piece. A supporting star on a good team.

I completely agree with every thing you said, but I think I may not have been able to articulate my thoughts properly. When I said "the team failed to build around Scottie", I meant more in along the lines of "failed to develop scottie/nurture scottie". Yes Scottie isn't good enough to be a focal point on the offense or be a true 1. When I might star, yes I might support star. A strong number 2.

But the current management is failing to develop that, obviously getting a superstar or a true number 1 would be ideal to put around Scottie. However that is not really possible. But the second best thing is to get scottie some shooting around him so he can develop into a strong 2 and that's how I believe the raptors have failed him. Have some space around him so he can develop his passing, run the fast break a little easier. Develop these skills while waiting for a true number 1 and that's what I think the issue is.

And all this can still be done while tanking. Charlotte is tanking while having Josh Green on the roster.

[tsherkin]

I completely agree with every thing you said, but I think I may not have been able to articulate my thoughts properly. When I said "the team failed to build around Scottie", I meant more in along the lines of "failed to develop scottie/nurture scottie". Yes Scottie isn't good enough to be a focal point on the offense or be a true 1. When I might star, yes I might support star. A strong number 2.

I don't think they're failing to do anything with him right now. I think they've been trying to see if he has the stuff to be a #1, and have learned that he isn't. I think our team has sucked, and that hasn't given us the opportunity to put Scottie into the same kind of role we've found for RJ, where he can find the playtypes which work best for him. I think that'll come more alongside BI and whomever we pick in the draft.

But the second best thing is to get scottie some shooting around him so he can develop into a strong 2

Peripheral shooting isn't the problem. He needs to be tasked with less self-creation. That, the team HAS addressed.

[dballislife]

all you want to see is your young players improve, the offense took a stagnant development year but his defense is improved

[anotherhomer]

I completely agree with every thing you said, but I think I may not have been able to articulate my thoughts properly. When I said "the team failed to build around Scottie", I meant more in along the lines of "failed to develop scottie/nurture scottie". Yes Scottie isn't good enough to be a focal point on the offense or be a true 1. When I might star, yes I might support star. A strong number 2.

I don't think they're failing to do anything with him right now. I think they've been trying to see if he has the stuff to be a #1, and have learned that he isn't. I think our team has sucked, and that hasn't given us the opportunity to put Scottie into the same kind of role we've found for RJ, where he can find the playtypes which work best for him. I think that'll come more alongside BI and whomever we pick in the draft.

But the second best thing is to get scottie some shooting around him so he can develop into a strong 2

Peripheral shooting isn't the problem. He needs to be tasked with less self-creation. That, the team HAS addressed.

i agree, it's been determined he doesn't really the stuff to be a 1A scorer, and you'll need the "scorer"

however, the good news, is that Scottie's scoring game did improve which will help augment his playmaking, while he's gotten better on D

[Thaddy]

We have BI now so it’s already happening. Drafting Tre Johnson or VJ would really put him down the pecking order and rightfully so I hope. Though I’m not super sold on Johnson’s game the stats don’t lie.

Edgecombe would be the best fit if he can shoot well from a stationary position. I feel like he's going to be a better shooter than Gradey at the NBA level because he has better athleticism and conditioning. It looks like defense and defensive rotations gas Gradey and he has no legs on offense to get his shot going.

Poeltl / Fleming
Barnes / Mogbo
Ingram / Dick / Agbaji / Walter
Barrett / Edgecombe
IQ / Shead

Something like that would work well for us next year, we can slowly develop our bench and load manage our starters. We should be looking to upgrade our back up PF position from Mogbo. Mogbo is really bad on offense and can't score at all. Dick should get us a good power forward on a rookie scale contract to provide balance. The defense between Shead and Edgecombe would be really good.

Edgecombe has elite athleticism unlike anything we've had since Vince however are we sold on his height not holding him back? Dude looks smaller than advertised. His motor looks amazing but I'm not sure how effective his career will be being at a height disadvantage at all positions outside of PG. If he is actually 6"5 then this is a non-point but he looks smaller lol

Even if he's undersized the motor, shooting potential and defensive impact is worth the pick. In our development system he would worse case be a better Agbaji. Best case his self creation is unlocked and he becomes a 2 way combo guard. I would consider him a Cason Wallace plus prospect.

[tsherkin]

i agree, it's been determined he doesn't really the stuff to be a 1A scorer, and you'll need the "scorer"

however, the good news, is that Scottie's scoring game did improve which will help augment his playmaking, while he's gotten better on D

I don't know that him hitting a better percentage on 2 short middies per game counts as him improving when his entire scoring game overall fell apart to the extent that it did. But yes, the D is nice, as are the rebounding and playmaking. He's going to be very useful one way or another. It just won't be as a volume scorer.

[djsunyc]

hard work does not always mean you get good at something. there's genetics and inherent skill level involved.

sometimes you work at something and you grow leaps and bounds. sometimes you get incrementally better. sometimes you show no improvement.

that is not an indictment on anyone - the player or the organization. you hope everyone can develop into elite players, but the cookie doesn't always crumble that way.

scottie works on his game and takes his craft seriously. as long as he works hard and gives full effort, then you live with the results until you can find someone better. there's zero reason to dog a player if he's putting forth full effort.

scottie is a really good player. not a great shooter and isn't a closer. that's just how it is. obviously masai recognized this b/c he made a deal for ingram who should soak up alot of the primary and closing options.

[TorontoBarneys]

Best thing for Scottie at this point might be looking elsewhere for an off-season development trainer. Could be useful linking up with LeBron or something and joining his offseason programs, I dunno.

[deeps6x]

Take the rest of the season off Scottie, and get well. Then you should also have a nice high draft pick to help you out next season.

[tsherkin]

So the Orlando game was rough on the whole, but interesting.

Despite not taking a single 3, he had an absolute brickfest. Couple of nice passes and defensive plays, a good follow on one of the fastbreaks.

Encouraging to see how all but 2 of his shots were IN the key, where he is usually quite successful, but damn. He did have some pretty decent dribble moves.

He had a right to left which moved him from the top corner to mid post on the other side and got a half decent fade out of it. He had a similar move with a little hesi wrinkle into a similar but cleaner shot. Missed both of them, but they were encouraging moves from a dude whose handle has been subject to so much criticism. Decent drive from the left side 3pt line early in the game for a miss, then another one later in the game from the right side for a make, both against Banchero. The catch and shoot on the baseline was nice. And in yet another example of "great move, now you gotta finish," he had one in the second where he went right to left, walked his guy into the paint, shielded well with body, got a clean look for a layup and missed it. Mid-post on the left side is a comfort spot for him, which is actually very encouraging to see. He got there later to draw a foul with a nice lean, just kept pounding that spot all night. Had a nice up and under on the right side low block which didn't go.

Then he nearly aired it out on his little slow-mo hesi move to get to his spot on the left mid-post. Again, kinda ugly, but it's encouraging that he's found a go-to spot. That's pretty important. He's getting reasonably clean looks from there, he's just building a new arena with all the bricks he was laying tonight. He's under 50% from 10-16 now as he settles and he's under 46% from 3-10, but there has to be some confidence in his ability to get to that spot over and over again. We were worried about him being able to generate looks for various reasons, but he's using a decent handle and brute strength coupled to some developing hesi action quite effectively.

[ConSarnit]

I completely agree with every thing you said, but I think I may not have been able to articulate my thoughts properly. When I said "the team failed to build around Scottie", I meant more in along the lines of "failed to develop scottie/nurture scottie". Yes Scottie isn't good enough to be a focal point on the offense or be a true 1. When I might star, yes I might support star. A strong number 2.

I don't think they're failing to do anything with him right now. I think they've been trying to see if he has the stuff to be a #1, and have learned that he isn't. I think our team has sucked, and that hasn't given us the opportunity to put Scottie into the same kind of role we've found for RJ, where he can find the playtypes which work best for him. I think that'll come more alongside BI and whomever we pick in the draft.

But the second best thing is to get scottie some shooting around him so he can develop into a strong 2

Peripheral shooting isn't the problem. He needs to be tasked with less self-creation. That, the team HAS addressed.

i agree, it's been determined he doesn't really the stuff to be a 1A scorer, and you'll need the "scorer"

however, the good news, is that Scottie's scoring game did improve which will help augment his playmaking, while he's gotten better on D

How had he improved as a scorer? The only area he is “acceptable” from is midrange.

3pt shooting: 160 players are taking >4 3pa this season. Barnes is dead last in 3p%

Post-ups and ISO scoring: he’s sub 40th percentile in both

Free throw rate: 28%, a pretty mediocre number

TS%: he ranks 372nd leaguewide

His scoring game is just flat out bad.

[ConSarnit]

hard work does not always mean you get good at something. there's genetics and inherent skill level involved.

sometimes you work at something and you grow leaps and bounds. sometimes you get incrementally better. sometimes you show no improvement.

that is not an indictment on anyone - the player or the organization. you hope everyone can develop into elite players, but the cookie doesn't always crumble that way.

scottie works on his game and takes his craft seriously. as long as he works hard and gives full effort, then you live with the results until you can find someone better. there's zero reason to dog a player if he's putting forth full effort.

scottie is a really good player. not a great shooter and isn't a closer. that's just how it is. obviously masai recognized this b/c he made a deal for ingram who should soak up alot of the primary and closing options.

By its very definition it has to be an indictment on someone. If he doesn’t develop offensively he’s going to be a bad contract. Defensive PF’s who can’t score aren’t worth max money. If he doesn’t develop that’s on the front office for giving him a contract he’s not worth.

Think about what you’re saying: if Barnes doesn’t develop then everyone just gets let off the hook? How does that make sense?

[anotherhomer]

I don't think they're failing to do anything with him right now. I think they've been trying to see if he has the stuff to be a #1, and have learned that he isn't. I think our team has sucked, and that hasn't given us the opportunity to put Scottie into the same kind of role we've found for RJ, where he can find the playtypes which work best for him. I think that'll come more alongside BI and whomever we pick in the draft.



Peripheral shooting isn't the problem. He needs to be tasked with less self-creation. That, the team HAS addressed.

i agree, it's been determined he doesn't really the stuff to be a 1A scorer, and you'll need the "scorer"

however, the good news, is that Scottie's scoring game did improve which will help augment his playmaking, while he's gotten better on D

How had he improved as a scorer? The only area he is “acceptable” from is midrange.

3pt shooting: 160 players are taking >4 3pa this season. Barnes is dead last in 3p%

Post-ups and ISO scoring: he’s sub 40th percentile in both

Free throw rate: 28%, a pretty mediocre number

TS%: he ranks 372nd leaguewide

His scoring game is just flat out bad.

ya, he's scoring game is so-so but not bad for a guy who likely range in the 15-18 pt a game range while giving a lot pluses in other areas

[tsherkin]

ya, he's scoring game is so-so but not bad for a guy who likely range in the 15-18 pt a game range while giving a lot pluses in other areas

No, it's been pretty bad this year. His ability to finish shots has tanked out brutally. He's below average inside the arc, terrible beyond the arc and average at drawing fouls, plus he's nothing special when he does get to the line. That's a bad recipe. He's showing some interesting signs in terms of his ability to generate shots closer to the basket, but he needs to learn how to actually hit them at a meaningful rate, and not just those 12-footers. As ever, we're still doing the "I wonder what he'll look like with less self-creation once Ingram starts playing" dance. Once we're able to get him some high-efficiency shots off-ball, then his overall scoring game should look better. But right now, it isn't just "so-so," it's actually quite poor.

[ForeverTFC]

But the current management is failing to develop that, obviously getting a superstar or a true number 1 would be ideal to put around Scottie. However that is not really possible. But the second best thing is to get scottie some shooting around him so he can develop into a strong 2 and that's how I believe the raptors have failed him. Have some space around him so he can develop his passing, run the fast break a little easier. Develop these skills while waiting for a true number 1 and that's what I think the issue is.

And all this can still be done while tanking. Charlotte is tanking while having Josh Green on the roster.

Unfortunately, I think this is a dated view/thesis. Scottie doesn't have much creation ability and more shooters aren't going to do that much for him. The idea was to get him space in the paint, but as was pointed out he's not able to take anyone one of one consistently, is not a good finisher, doesn't have the ability to draw fouls, and doesn't hit his FTs at a high rate. This 4 out dream around Scottie that we all had is just that, not real. There is a reason why so many people are in love with Barrett; they are starved for a player that can get his own, especially with Siakam no longer here.

[ForeverTFC]

hard work does not always mean you get good at something. there's genetics and inherent skill level involved.

sometimes you work at something and you grow leaps and bounds. sometimes you get incrementally better. sometimes you show no improvement.

that is not an indictment on anyone - the player or the organization. you hope everyone can develop into elite players, but the cookie doesn't always crumble that way.

scottie works on his game and takes his craft seriously. as long as he works hard and gives full effort, then you live with the results until you can find someone better. there's zero reason to dog a player if he's putting forth full effort.

scottie is a really good player. not a great shooter and isn't a closer. that's just how it is. obviously masai recognized this b/c he made a deal for ingram who should soak up alot of the primary and closing options.

By its very definition it has to be an indictment on someone. If he doesn’t develop offensively he’s going to be a bad contract. Defensive PF’s who can’t score aren’t worth max money. If he doesn’t develop that’s on the front office for giving him a contract he’s not worth.

Think about what you’re saying: if Barnes doesn’t develop then everyone just gets let off the hook? How does that make sense?

ROTY and 1x All Star. He was always getting the max, especially from a team like us. There was no choice there and we shouldn't pretend like there was. If there was a missed opportunity by the FO, it was not trading him for KD.

[HangTime]

I don't think people are seeing the bigger picture, especially with the roster we've had this season.

You have to give it time, espically with the way he started last season.

He's in his 2nd development year, everyone glances over that.

I can't be the only one that sees it.

[anotherhomer]

ya, he's scoring game is so-so but not bad for a guy who likely range in the 15-18 pt a game range while giving a lot pluses in other areas

No, it's been pretty bad this year. His ability to finish shots has tanked out brutally. He's below average inside the arc, terrible beyond the arc and average at drawing fouls, plus he's nothing special when he does get to the line. That's a bad recipe. He's showing some interesting signs in terms of his ability to generate shots closer to the basket, but he needs to learn how to actually hit them at a meaningful rate, and not just those 12-footers. As ever, we're still doing the "I wonder what he'll look like with less self-creation once Ingram starts playing" dance. Once we're able to get him some high-efficiency shots off-ball, then his overall scoring game should look better. But right now, it isn't just "so-so," it's actually quite poor.

he wasn't bad prior to his initial ankle injury back in dec...but i think he should focus on recovery honestly

after the injury, he hasn't had the bounce to drive to the net

[tsherkin]

Scottie doesn't have much creation ability and more shooters aren't going to do that much for him.

So this isn't actually true.

He was consistently, reliably getting to his spots against Orlando. The problem wasn't creating shots. It wasn't even getting clean-ish looks. He was blowing shots right at the rim, missing clean fades, all of it. The shot making was the problem. But he was gaining separation, using his body to shield and get good looks, etc.

There is a reason why so many people are in love with Barrett; they are starved for a player that can get his own, especially with Siakam no longer here.

Scottie actually did a better job of generating his own looks than did Barrett against the Magic. He just wasn't finishing them. Barrett made some nice passes (including one gorgeous bouncer to Poeltl on the left side early on), and that was to me the MOST impressive part of his night. He had that nice thunder up the middle in transition off the pass FROM Scottie. But in general, he wasn't doing much better than Scottie at generating his own looks. He used a lot of screens, got a bunch of floaters, hit a nice three off a Poeltl ORB. Where he is superior to Scottie is in selling the contact, though, and when he's actually hitting his FTs, that helps a bunch. He had a nice coast-to-coast off of a defensive rebound.. and between that and the dunk from Scottie, that's 40% of what he accomplished inside (aside from FTs, obviously). He had a decent little push shot in the bottom of the circle, right around where Scottie was getting all night long, and then he had a baseline dunk off a pass from Shead. That's the sort of play where RJ thrives, working off of what others initiate, and he's been doing quite well since we got back to letting him do that.

And that's kind of the hope with Scottie, that with BI, we can get him those kinds of shots to help improve his efficiency.

[Son Goku 25]

This summer is so crucial for our team. I like how we've been developing him so far and I think he'll fit perfectly in that 3rd option kind of role and take over at times when needed. He's a Draymond/Lowry kind of player in terms of impact and those guys are needed for winning in the league. He's also much more talented than them so I expect him to be better.

His strengths are to defend the paint not out in perimeter so we gotta get a couple of defenders to help relieve some pressure of him and center.

Right now I'm excited and will hopefully get more excited if we get a top pick in May.