OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[2019nbachamps]

I gave up on the Leafs after we lost to the Canes in the 2002 ECF. Has been liberating.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Clean house management/coaching. Matthews next deal is going to be a franchise-killer with the hard cap, so he's the only guy I would consider putting on the block within that core. It's a shame, too, but that's also on Dubas for giving him that short contract. Player agent that caved on every negotiation, is in constant cap purgatory, and now has traded most of his picks for the next three drafts to build only this.

[JPriest]

When you have half your cap tied up in 4 players not really considered playoff style guys, it's a problem Dubas should have identified a while ago.

Their top 4 guys haven’t been the problem.

lmao you high? those guys were invisible, especially Matthews, Tavares and Marner. Its been 6-7 years now and these dudes always wilt in the playoffs. Matthews and Marner were turnover machines and were thoroughly outplayed. They haven't showed up at all in this series getting outplayed by castoffs like Duclair, Reinhart and Sam Bennett. Tavares can't skate and his hockey skill is pretty questionable. he's a grinder who gets lucky and scores ugly goals once in a while but is terrible defensively and is aging like milk. not worth 11 million and he has a no trade clause lmao. 2 more years of this. Marner and Matthews, got their no dress code, the big bucks, and their country club culture. they haven't done **** to earn it. really shows where their focus is.

[refshateRaps]

Many of the Leafs lines look slow and at times gassed against Florida which seems to have far more jump and playoff energy late in games. Matthews and Marner were suppose to be that spark and sadly are not.

Very close to seeing a house cleaning. Remember whwn they tried to blame Babcock when the team had lesser talent? Good ol fire the coach nonsense,

The Leafs going for it this year may also be why the Raptors were not allowed too. If the Leafs fail in epic fashion MLSE might be desperate to get the Raps back in win now mode again?

[shmoosicle]

The Leafs going for it this year may also be why the Raptors were not allowed too. If the Leafs fail in epic fashion MLSE might be desperate to get the Raps back in win now mode again?

Can you explain what going for it would have meant for the Raptors this year and what the Leafs had to do with preventing that?

[will]

Bottle Job FC

[refshateRaps]

The Leafs going for it this year may also be why the Raptors were not allowed too. If the Leafs fail in epic fashion MLSE might be desperate to get the Raps back in win now mode again?

Can you explain what going for it would have meant for the Raptors this year and what the Leafs had to do with preventing that?

MLSE and Co. would want full focus on the Leafs when they are going all-in here. There was clearly no appetite for the Raptors to go all-in this season with Pascal in his prime. This was very likely one of the reasons

Im sure they all hoped the Raps would scratch there way into the first round as they are still selling tickets off the championship hangover but al focus was likwely wanted on the Leafs

Now if the Leafs get knocked out that targeted focus may shift drastically back to the Raps as the Leafs clean house.

[Mak]

Masai would have left a long time ago if the direction from the board was based on how good or bad the Leafs do.

[tanuki1031]

Bunting is probably one of maybe two forwards who goes hard for puck battles behind the opposing net but unfortunately sucks at taking and keeping the puck. Tavares sometimes does it but he's not good either. Everyone else plays predominantly in front of the net and content with one-dimensional offensive looks and giving up possession.
It's like basketball with no rebounders, constant one and dones and only getting the ball back when your opponent fails to score or has scored. Never a threat to forcefully apply pressure and reclaim possession.

You look at Crosby, McDavid, and other teams who have a guy or set of guys who work from the office behind the next and the amount of pressure/scoring that comes with it.

Marner is the Trae Young of our team (a lot of inconsequential offensive stats), except he can't even draw penalties because that's how far he takes himself out of contact zones.
Ditto with Nylander, except less offensive consistency and frankly prone to floating around the ice 3/4 shifts. He's a worse version of GTJ.

Tavares is the Siakam of Siakams. He wants to be here, costs a lot, tends to have above average stats, but when you watch him closely and especially against raised competition or stakes you see nothing special about his game, if not notice it's actually limited, and fails to outplay opponents who exert some degree of effort.

Matthews. Elite scoring no doubt and arguably paid like one, fine. Lacks non-goal scoring skill/awareness like a Draisaitl. He's like the current Tatum/Brown - enough 30+ games that make you go "wow, mvp/all-star considerations" just enough to hide the stink of increasingly frequent 5/25 shooting games and disappearance of defense.

The team just has little to no hockey IQ. It's the roster and a direct result of the coaching as well. Look at Paul Maurice getting the Cats to absolutely maul us. All four of their lines shift by shift by shift.

Hope they get things straightened out however needed because the Leafs play a real bad brand of hockey. Not going to question effort and passion but how they are and have been playing isn't flattering. Embarrassing amd problematic from top to bottom.

[Lord_Zedd]

When you have half your cap tied up in 4 players not really considered playoff style guys, it's a problem Dubas should have identified a while ago.

Their top 4 guys haven’t been the problem.

0 goals in 3 games. yes they have been the problem. Matthews with only 2 shots tonight. you have to break up that core in the off-season.

the Leafs are not winning 4 straight. this season is over.

Marner is the worst offender of them all. Offensive issues aside (9 goals total in 8 playoff series mind you), Marner was careless with the puck last night. Giving them away like candy, one of which led to a goal.

There's no way Marner isn't a problem with the Leafs, unless he's not considered top 4 here.

Leafs got swindled by Marner and his dad all for this showing.

[JB7]

Dubas is on last year of his contract. He was given way too much leeway to build this team. Instead, he completely wasted this core. Good riddance.

If Shanahan had a clue what he was doing, he would have fired Dubas years ago.

Dubas was given Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly to build with, and has basically done nothing with his draft picks, and much beyond signing Tavares as a FA, which was pretty much Tavares wanting to come home.

The thing is Matthews, Marner and Nylander have been severely underperforming this whole Florida series so far so how can you blame THAT on Dubas? All he's done is try to add experience, leadership and toughness to this team to give them some backbone and right now its the star players that need to show up and deliver when they've stayed largely silent so far in this series.

Also have you been following any Leafs prospects AT ALL?? Besides Knies who has looked pretty darn good before he got injured, there's at least several more prospects that are looking pretty decent with the Marlies who could be in the lineup in a year or two. The Leafs went from having barely any good prospects in their system before Dubas arrived to now having a fair number who show some promise in being NHL players someday. That's something that Leafs fans haven't seen in many years and is part of the reason why they've seen relative little success until recently.

That’s why I gave up on the Leafs. Absolute joke of an organization.

Thank god ownership was too focused on the Leafs, to leave Masai to build the Raps. Result - championship over the same period of time in a league that is much more difficult to win in.

Its much easier to build a championship team in the NBA when one or two big moves that can land you a star player or two can be the difference between barely making the playoffs and becoming a championship team. All the Raptors needed was to get rid of Derozan in exchange for Kawhi and boom they went from a good team that could never play consistently well in the playoffs to winning a championship.

The NHL on the otherhand is truly a team sport and most everyone needs to be playing good to win in the playoffs. That's why its probably the hardest trophy to win in all of sports because you can't have any passengers and you have to grind out 16 wins.

The trifecta of Matthews, Marner and Nylander has not got it done for 6 (soon to be 7) straight playoffs. Those three are super talented, but the team needed to move one (since Dubas couldn't negotiate a deal to save his life), to add more depth around the team. It is only lately that Dubas has gotten desperate and traded for the grinders that win in the playoffs, but too little too late.

Knies is a great prospect, but he is the only one that might be significant that he has drafted, and who knows, because it is still early. Liljegren can barely stay in the lineup. The draft where I lost it was the year they drafted Amirov. They already had Marner, Nylander & Robertson on the team or in the system, and they draft Amirov, passing up on two big mobile Canadian D (Guhle & Schneider), exactly what the team was missing. At that point, I was completely done with Dubas. What a useless GM. To think they had Mark Hunter and Lou Lamoriello at the time also, and chose Dubas.

In terms of the system, when Dubas came in, they had Matthews, Marner, and Nylander all just starting off on rookie deals, plus Rielly & Kadri signed to amazing deals. What is he leaving the next GM?

In terms of winning in the NBA for NHL. The fact that having that one player can swing your chances makes it much more difficult to win in the NBA, and Masai was bold enough (and a bit lucky) to trade for one. Dubas was gifted that type of talent in Matthews, and couldn't build a team around him to win - not even talking a Stanley Cup win, but just some playoff rounds.

[JB7]

Their top 4 guys haven’t been the problem.

0 goals in 3 games. yes they have been the problem. Matthews with only 2 shots tonight. you have to break up that core in the off-season.

the Leafs are not winning 4 straight. this season is over.

Marner is the worst offender of them all. Offensive issues aside (9 goals total in 8 playoff series mind you), Marner was careless with the puck last night. Giving them away like candy, one of which led to a goal.

There's no way Marner isn't a problem with the Leafs, unless he's not considered top 4 here.

Leafs got swindled by Marner and his dad all for this showing.

Matthews will be traded by the incoming GM. He is the only one of the 3 (Marner & Nylander) that could command a significant return, and he is not guaranteed to reup with the Leafs, considering every US based team would want him. Unfortunately, he should have been moved two years ago, when the return would have been massive. Now you are just looking for US teams that are capped out and desperate to get him (possibly the Rangers), and have a lot of young talent.

Nylander only has one year left on his deal, and Marner while having two years left, needs a top line C to produce the numbers he does, has a massive cap number and is limited in his impact in the playoffs. Tavares has on a no-movement clause, and he is the only Toronto born star to return to play for the Leafs - no way they would trade him.

[OakleyDokely]

Ovechkin and Stamkos didn't win their first cups until they were in their 30s I believe.

Hockey is so random that it's probably best to just to continue to put out your great players and just hope that you eventually get the luck/goaltending to win it one year instead of hoping to find new great players.

[ItsDanger]

If Shanahan had a clue what he was doing, he would have fired Dubas years ago.

Dubas was given Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly to build with, and has basically done nothing with his draft picks, and much beyond signing Tavares as a FA, which was pretty much Tavares wanting to come home.

The thing is Matthews, Marner and Nylander have been severely underperforming this whole Florida series so far so how can you blame THAT on Dubas? All he's done is try to add experience, leadership and toughness to this team to give them some backbone and right now its the star players that need to show up and deliver when they've stayed largely silent so far in this series.

Also have you been following any Leafs prospects AT ALL?? Besides Knies who has looked pretty darn good before he got injured, there's at least several more prospects that are looking pretty decent with the Marlies who could be in the lineup in a year or two. The Leafs went from having barely any good prospects in their system before Dubas arrived to now having a fair number who show some promise in being NHL players someday. That's something that Leafs fans haven't seen in many years and is part of the reason why they've seen relative little success until recently.

That’s why I gave up on the Leafs. Absolute joke of an organization.

Thank god ownership was too focused on the Leafs, to leave Masai to build the Raps. Result - championship over the same period of time in a league that is much more difficult to win in.

Its much easier to build a championship team in the NBA when one or two big moves that can land you a star player or two can be the difference between barely making the playoffs and becoming a championship team. All the Raptors needed was to get rid of Derozan in exchange for Kawhi and boom they went from a good team that could never play consistently well in the playoffs to winning a championship.

The NHL on the otherhand is truly a team sport and most everyone needs to be playing good to win in the playoffs. That's why its probably the hardest trophy to win in all of sports because you can't have any passengers and you have to grind out 16 wins.

The trifecta of Matthews, Marner and Nylander has not got it done for 6 (soon to be 7) straight playoffs. Those three are super talented, but the team needed to move one (since Dubas couldn't negotiate a deal to save his life), to add more depth around the team. It is only lately that Dubas has gotten desperate and traded for the grinders that win in the playoffs, but too little too late.

Knies is a great prospect, but he is the only one that might be significant that he has drafted, and who knows, because it is still early. Liljegren can barely stay in the lineup. The draft where I lost it was the year they drafted Amirov. They already had Marner, Nylander & Robertson on the team or in the system, and they draft Amirov, passing up on two big mobile Canadian D (Guhle & Schneider), exactly what the team was missing. At that point, I was completely done with Dubas. What a useless GM. To think they had Mark Hunter and Lou Lamoriello at the time also, and chose Dubas.

In terms of the system, when Dubas came in, they had Matthews, Marner, and Nylander all just starting off on rookie deals, plus Rielly & Kadri signed to amazing deals. What is he leaving the next GM?

In terms of winning in the NBA for NHL. The fact that having that one player can swing your chances makes it much more difficult to win in the NBA, and Masai was bold enough (and a bit lucky) to trade for one. Dubas was gifted that type of talent in Matthews, and couldn't build a team around him to win - not even talking a Stanley Cup win, but just some playoff rounds.

Guhle was definitely a huge miss, but an equally big miss was Dawson Mercer. Although you make mistakes, its correctable by acquiring the right pieces that aren't expensive to mesh with your core players. I agree that on defense, you got to nail that in the draft. I would have fired Dubas already because fixing this now is going to be hard. You can tweak the forward top 9 but defense is nearly impossible to correct.

That's why for the Raps, this offseason is a massive fork in the road.

[refshateRaps]

Masai would have left a long time ago if the direction from the board was based on how good or bad the Leafs do.

Everyone has a boss.

The politics in this organization are greater then most. The direction of this team is far from just Masais requests.

[JB7]

Guhle was definitely a huge miss, but an equally big miss was Dawson Mercer. Although you make mistakes, its correctable by acquiring the right pieces that aren't expensive to mesh with your core players. I agree that on defense, you got to nail that in the draft. I would have fired Dubas already because fixing this now is going to be hard. You can tweak the forward top 9 but defense is nearly impossible to correct.

That's why for the Raps, this offseason is a massive fork in the road.

Rangers might be the team to target. They are always desperate to get big names. They have Lafrenière and K'Andre Miller needing new deals this summer, and Schneider one year away from a new deal.

Agreed on this offseason being a massive fork in the road for the Raps. But I trust Masai to make the right decisions, over an idiot like Dubas.

[Mak]

Masai would have left a long time ago if the direction from the board was based on how good or bad the Leafs do.

Everyone has a boss.

The politics in this organization are greater then most. The direction of this team is far from just Masais requests.

Masai had many other options where he would have full control if it was not here. I just don't see him staying if he is somehow limited by what the Leafs are doing. We also know that organization never said no to Masai, no evidence, no reporting or even rumours of it happening.

[Los_29]

When you have half your cap tied up in 4 players not really considered playoff style guys, it's a problem Dubas should have identified a while ago.

Their top 4 guys haven’t been the problem.

lmao you high? those guys were invisible, especially Matthews, Tavares and Marner. Its been 6-7 years now and these dudes always wilt in the playoffs. Matthews and Marner were turnover machines and were thoroughly outplayed. They haven't showed up at all in this series getting outplayed by castoffs like Duclair, Reinhart and Sam Bennett. Tavares can't skate and his hockey skill is pretty questionable. he's a grinder who gets lucky and scores ugly goals once in a while but is terrible defensively and is aging like milk. not worth 11 million and he has a no trade clause lmao. 2 more years of this. Marner and Matthews, got their no dress code, the big bucks, and their country club culture. they haven't done **** to earn it. really shows where their focus is.

You clearly haven't been watching then. Marner had 12 points in these playoffs, Matthews had 11 points. The difference the past couple of years has been their lack of production from their 3rd and 4th lines. Look at last year against Tampa. Our top guys outplayed their top guys but Tampa won because they were getting goals from guys like Nick Paul.

To say that guys like Matthews and Marner don't have a style for the playoffs is absurd.

I actually agree with Tavares though. I don't like his contract and he wasn't great in these playoffs.

Team was good enough to win but that's hockey.

Ovechkin and Stamkos didn't win their first cups until they were in their 30s I believe.

Hockey is so random that it's probably best to just to continue to put out your great players and just hope that you eventually get the luck/goaltending to win it one year instead of hoping to find new great players.

That's how I see it as well. Team is good enough to win the cup. I don't think people can say with confidence that Florida is a much better team than us. Making big changes would do a lot more harm than good.

[ATLTimekeeper]

They've been good enough for a long time. Lots of teams are good enough, though. Considering the rising costs and the hard cap, they should move someone big this summer. First fire Dubas/Keefe. New guy gets to build the team in the style they prefer.

[gbball]

Many of the Leafs lines look slow and at times gassed against Florida which seems to have far more jump and playoff energy late in games. Matthews and Marner were suppose to be that spark and sadly are not.

Very close to seeing a house cleaning. Remember whwn they tried to blame Babcock when the team had lesser talent? Good ol fire the coach nonsense,

The Leafs going for it this year may also be why the Raptors were not allowed too. If the Leafs fail in epic fashion MLSE might be desperate to get the Raps back in win now mode again?

I don't know hockey that well, but to me it seems like Toronto is playing into Florida's hands. Florida seems quicker and wants to force turnovers. Our guys are trying to be too cute trying to bring the puck up, but they're not as fast and so Florida just gets it off us or we turn it over trying to do too much.

Florida is playing with more urgency and aggression, but it seems to me if our players passed better and quicker, we could use their over aggression against them. The Leafs haven't adjusted to the speed mismatch.