Yahoo/Sportsnet: J. O

[LLJ]

Shaq:

95-96--54 games
96-97--51 games
97-98--60 games

That's where the comparison stops.

Age and production.

Jalen Rose laughs at this.

Yeah, but Jalen was an iron man and rarely missed games so he doesn't have that excuse. We thought he was phoning it in, but sadly, he really was done.

Let's hope JO is more like your boy Vince before he was traded.

[Guy Smiley]

Shaq:

95-96--54 games
96-97--51 games
97-98--60 games

That's where the comparison stops.

Age and production.

Jalen Rose laughs at this.

Yeah, but Jalen was an iron man and rarely missed games so he doesn't have that excuse. We thought he was phoning it in, but sadly, he really was done.

Let's hope JO is more like your boy Vince before he was traded.

Vince was solid the season before he was traded. VC's final full season with the Raps should not be compared to JO's. Vince was younger too just entering his prime. I agree that Vince played some of the worst ball of his career under Sam Mitchell though. Tough to do well when he is not playing at the time of the game he usually takes over. But that is water under the bridge.

Jalen was a warrior who played hurt. He was the man of men.

Mo Pete says hello.

[Joker]

Marcus Camby averaged 49 games per season in his first 7 seasons. He's averaged 69 games per season since then. And that turnaround happened when he was around 29-30, IIRC.

[Hendrix]

My first post in this thread since the deal went down.

I haven't scanned all 41 pages, but I've skimmed through a lot of posts, here's my take:

A) This move is high risk / high reward

BC is rolling the dice. This move can make him look like a genius or a fool. BC has always shown he has the cahones to pull big moves and this is a classic move. He probably could have gotten safer players back in a trade (Frye / Webster), but he's swinging for the fences.

I don't think this is all that high risk. I see it more low risk, high reward.

We're giving up Rasho, the 17, and TJ. So basically we have the team we had last year after TJ went down and have added an impact player to it that fills a ton of our needs. Rasho's good, but really nothing special, and not much more then an expiring now. TJ, and Calderon were redundent together, and our PG play shouldn't have much of a drop off with Calderon playing 40 minutes/game. The center position isn't going to take much of a drop off with Rasho gone, but could be great.


I think our offense is going to be fine. We have more then enough capible scorers, and while J.O isn't exactly like some people think offensivly like Harry pointed out. We don't need him to be. We have a very goof offensive team as it is, and J.O just made it better then any offense we got from Bargnani/Rasho last year. The defense, and rebounding is the big thing. That will be a massive improvmetn over last year. And if he's injured we finihs 5th-7th like last year, and have a 23 million expiring on our hands, in a year.

For me, the high risk is due to injury and conditioning. Nobody knows how healthy he is, and if you pop over to the Indiana boards, they say that every year in the off-season they have been fed nothing but "he's now healthy and looks great" only to have him look terrible and injured during the season. If he comes in and can only play half a season, or looks old, fat and tired, Raps lose the trade not based on what they gave up, but what they could have gotten instead.

Really depends on what they could have gotten I guess. If it's Lopez I'm not too worried, or some other player that turns out to be a mediocre player like you normally get at 17 then no biggie. Especially when you factor in us having a 23 million dollar expiring next year. A lot of teams could be interested in that. If not let it expire and we're way under the cap to sign a big free agent.

[|llsT oNe]

Marcus Camby averaged 49 games per season in his first 7 seasons. He's averaged 69 games per season since then. And that turnaround happened when he was around 29-30, IIRC.

*chalks up a point to Joker*

[Kordic27]

True, Shaq and Camby are two... but in coming up with names of players who had consistently missed games for a few years, and then returned to play a significant number of games for a few year, you start to realize that it's the rare exception rather than the norm. So in hoping that JO play a good number of games (65+), we're hoping for something that is unlikely to happen. Weird to trade for that, I think.

[LLJ]

Mo Pete says hello.

Well, JO did average "star" type numbers up to December before he got hurt in January. Then in March-April he came back and you could say he was changed forever or he was pulling a "Vince the month before he got traded."

And Jalen, well, he looks like Toshiro Mifune right now because I was watching a Kurosawa movie last night. Now Mifune is a man of men.

[LLJ]

True, Shaq and Camby are two... but in coming up with names of players who had consistently missed games for a few years, and then returned to play a significant number of games for a few year, you start to realize that it's the rare exception rather than the norm. So in hoping that JO play a good number of games (65+), we're hoping for something that is unlikely to happen. Weird to trade for that, I think.

"Weird"? I wouldn't say that.

Ideal? Obviously not.

But you do remember exactly WHO we were trading, right? TJ Ford? Good player, not quite a star? Recurring spinal concerns? Obviously we had to expect some risk back.

I know the other "pretty legit" deal was Diaw but I would rather flirt with the disaster that might be JO.

As for the others, they were just rumours.

[Snowcrash]

Gamble? Nah. I don't even buy lottery tickets. Don't like the odds.

And yet you call yourself a Raptor fan?

Sure. If I ever decide to drop $100 at a blackjack table, I'd look at it strictly as entertainment money, much like going to a restaurant, a concert or a game. When I'm at a Raptors game, I don't hope to find a $100 bill on the floor of the men's room so I end up ahead financially at the end of the evening.

[Ong_dynasty]

I am a big fan of the trade...
As what people say, if he doesn't work out this year..then we have a major trade piece or a major expiring contract next year.
How I see this happening is J. O'neal and Bosh being given around 30 mins a game making their numbers lower that what people would expect but will help with the wear and tear. and hopefully have Bargs and Rasho(Hopefully) manning the rest of the minutes.

Hopefully when Playoffs comes around then we can increase their minutes...

What I expect from J o'neal is around 15 and 8 and 2.

Diaw would have increased our seedings by 1..but would still be lucky to get out of the 1st round.

This move is a high risk high reward move Which I can handle.

[|llsT oNe]

True, Shaq and Camby are two... but in coming up with names of players who had consistently missed games for a few years, and then returned to play a significant number of games for a few year, you start to realize that it's the rare exception rather than the norm. So in hoping that JO play a good number of games (65+), we're hoping for something that is unlikely to happen. Weird to trade for that, I think.

Grant Hill is nearing this status too, Mcdyess is another, albeit in a lesser role.

Give me some names to support the opposite being true? It seems intuitive, but I'd like to see examples.

[bruno sundov]

Allen houston is a guy who was healthy the hurt all of the time.

[AndreaBustani]

True, Shaq and Camby are two... but in coming up with names of players who had consistently missed games for a few years, and then returned to play a significant number of games for a few year, you start to realize that it's the rare exception rather than the norm. So in hoping that JO play a good number of games (65+), we're hoping for something that is unlikely to happen. Weird to trade for that, I think.

Grant Hill is nearing this status too, Mcdyess is another, albeit in a lesser role.

Give me some names to support the opposite being true? It seems intuitive, but I'd like to see examples.

throws in illgauskas

anyways waits for the toronto raptors will pick but it's not their pick its indiana, i wish tnt had the draft:(

[douggood]

baron davis

[Kordic27]

Screw you guys and your 'proof''.

Okay, some good names there... still makes me nervous though. I hate the thought of a guy missing 1 in every four of 5 games.

[Rhettmatic]

Chad Ford weighs in.

Sean (Spokane): What do you think of the Raptors-Pacers deal?

Chad Ford: (1:39 PM ET ) I think it's a win-win deal. I think the Pacers walk away with three things: a great player (Ford), a young prospect (17th pick) and lots of cap space in 2009. That's the holy trinity in a trade. And I think the Raptors get a potentially dominating big man if Jermaine O'Neal is healthy. This is cleary a case of one man's trash is another man's treasure. I think this trade will make both teams much better next year. So much for all of those haters that said Larry Bird doesn't have game as a GM. This was a very sophisticated move. Better than I thought the Pacers could get for O'Neal.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=21232

[Guy Smiley]

I hope this deal isn't the one that puts Bird on the map as a GM.

[LLJ]

I thought you hated Ford, Guy? If Ford sucks so bad, what are you so afraid of?

[Champipple]

Fan 590 just reported that the Pacers are saying it's premature to say it's a done deal. The reporter also said that both players are going to have physicals.

I guess it could still fall apart, or maybe change a bit depending on the physicals?

[Hank_Scorpio]

I'll go on record as saying that I am not a fan of this deal. Yes, Ford has his injury issues, but O'Neal hasn't played a full season in 4 years.

The only reason I am not furious is because of O'Neal is only signed for this year and next year. I think if he is healthy, he makes the Raptors a better team right now - and then next year, he is a massive expiring contract that can be of tremendous value.

So I'm cautiously optimistic overall, but I would have much preferred someone a little younger and a little healthier.