OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[ATLTimekeeper]

They added a bunch of dump and chase players at the deadline. Marner, Matthews and Nylander just aren't that, though. Move one and see what happens.

[bluerap23]

So happy I am not invested in this team. I haven't watched seriously since they were actually good (Doug Gilmour era). Hockey also has so much luck element. Panthers beating Bruins and Leafs back-to-back shouldn't be possible.

It would be so funny if our 3rd stringer goal tender comes in and leads us to a cup - and yet it is actually possible in the NHL.

[GQStylin]

The trifecta of Matthews, Marner and Nylander has not got it done for 6 (soon to be 7) straight playoffs. Those three are super talented, but the team needed to move one (since Dubas couldn't negotiate a deal to save his life), to add more depth around the team. It is only lately that Dubas has gotten desperate and traded for the grinders that win in the playoffs, but too little too late.

Moving one of the guys you mentioned and bringing in a couple of other people doesn't immediately make you a winner unless your remaining top players are performing their best. Hypothetically say you move Marner and bring in a couple of guys. That may help some, but Matthews, Nylander and Tavares still have to be leading the team and playing well for the Leafs to get far in the playoffs.

Right now that's the issue where our best players aren't stepping up enough against Florida otherwise they'd be leading this series by now. Also I don't know how its a little too late when Dubas brought in players that he thought would help the team gain more success in the playoffs.

Knies is a great prospect, but he is the only one that might be significant that he has drafted, and who knows, because it is still early. Liljegren can barely stay in the lineup. The draft where I lost it was the year they drafted Amirov. They already had Marner, Nylander & Robertson on the team or in the system, and they draft Amirov, passing up on two big mobile Canadian D (Guhle & Schneider), exactly what the team was missing. At that point, I was completely done with Dubas. What a useless GM. To think they had Mark Hunter and Lou Lamoriello at the time also, and chose Dubas.

Liljegren DESERVES to be in the lineup, its just idiot Keefe who believes Holl is a better choice when clearly Liljegren has been the better play for much of the season. Liljegren has made some mistakes no doubt, but they've been far fewer than other Dmen on the Leafs just that it seems like his mistakes give Keefe a reason not to play him compared to Holl who can make a ton of mistakes and still have Keefe believe in him. I like Holl and think generally he's decent, but Liljegren right now is clearly better and should be in the lineup fulltime to help the team as well as gain more experience.

As for Amirov he may have turned out well, but it sucks that he had cancer and probably won't ever play in the NHL. Right now if he can just beat cancer and live a normal life that will be the best outcome for him. Also I disagree about needing to draft defensemen when we already have several prospects that might be able to play in the NHL that won't be able to because there's no space for them. Liljegren and Timmins need to be in the lineup fulltime next season and between them and the vets we already have there's no spot for anyone else on the Leafs blueline right now.

On the otherhand you can never have enough talented forwards and as someone mentioned it would've been great if Dubas had taken a prospect like Dawson Mercer over Amirov, but unfortunately you can't plan for a player developing a longterm illness that may end their playing career before it even started.

In terms of the system, when Dubas came in, they had Matthews, Marner, and Nylander all just starting off on rookie deals, plus Rielly & Kadri signed to amazing deals. What is he leaving the next GM?

If Dubas were to leave, the next GM will have pretty much no bad contracts to deal with outside of perhaps Murray and maybe Rielly unless he continues to play as good as he has during the playoffs. That's about it. Tavares isn't a great contract, but it isn't bad either and most other players are either on cheap and/or short term deals. The Leafs prospect pool will also be much better than before Dubas arrived and the team that he assembled now is still a top team in the NHL even if it struggles to have playoff success.

Also one thing you don't take into account is that its HARD to win a Stanley Cup and even good teams can often not have much playoff success. Just look at Ovechkin and the Caps who've had some of the best teams in the NHL for the past decade or so and yet they've NEVER gotten past the 2nd round in the playoffs except for ONE TIME when they actually won the cup. Ovechkin the soon to be greatest goal scorer in the NHL has only been past the 2nd round ONCE IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER. How crazy is that?

In terms of winning in the NBA for NHL. The fact that having that one player can swing your chances makes it much more difficult to win in the NBA, and Masai was bold enough (and a bit lucky) to trade for one. Dubas was gifted that type of talent in Matthews, and couldn't build a team around him to win - not even talking a Stanley Cup win, but just some playoff rounds.

You got it backwards. Having one or two players being such a big influence makes winning much, MUCH easier when those players can play 40+ mins a game and carry their team. As I said the NHL as an actual TEAM sport where top to bottom your team needs to be good to have a chance at winning. Why do you think that its so much easier for top teams in the NBA to become dynasties and be repeat champions than it is in the NHL?

[C_Money]

So happy I am not invested in this team. I haven't watched seriously since they were actually good (Doug Gilmour era). Hockey also has so much luck element. Panthers beating Bruins and Leafs back-to-back shouldn't be possible.

It would be so funny if our 3rd stringer goal tender comes in and leads us to a cup - and yet it is actually possible in the NHL.

It pretty much all comes down to defence and goaltending from what I’ve seen. Leafs are soft defensively and have a sh*t goalie so they suck in the playoffs.

[JPriest]

Ovechkin and the Caps had intense, fierce toe to toe playoff battles including several series with the Penguins where effort and heart were never questioned. kind of an insult to compare Ovechkin's teams to these listless Leafs.

[Madvillainy2004]

Ovechkin and the Caps had intense, fierce toe to toe playoff battles including several series with the Penguins where effort and heart were never questioned. kind of an insult to compare Ovechkin's teams to these listless Leafs.

They also had some absolutely insane choke jobs during that time. And lost to some terrible teams (MTL series big stand out). Ovie/Backstrom heart has been heavily questioned throughout their time in Washington (including flat out missing the playoffs on occasion). Ovie has had some great playoffs and some pretty poor ones as well. I think changes should be made but the Caps winning a cup greatly changes how they are viewed in reteospect.

[Madvillainy2004]

Ovechkin and Stamkos didn't win their first cups until they were in their 30s I believe.

Hockey is so random that it's probably best to just to continue to put out your great players and just hope that you eventually get the luck/goaltending to win it one year instead of hoping to find new great players.

Ovechkin and Stamkos didn't win their first cups until they were in their 30s I believe.

Hockey is so random that it's probably best to just to continue to put out your great players and just hope that you eventually get the luck/goaltending to win it one year instead of hoping to find new great players.

As someone that's watched a lot of hockey this is the I guess uncomfortable truth with the sport. The leafs have been on the wrong side of most of it (to an hilarious degree). But sorta like baseball just get to the dance and see what happens.

Goaltending is the most important biggest trump card in any series. The leafs are probably up 2-1 if you just swap Sammy/Woll for Bob. But the funny thing is Bob before this series had an insanely mediocre season and his contract is an anchor. Other than last series they have not had the better goaltending in any series they've played.

I do think Keefe needs to be shown the door, luck/flukeyness aside he's been outcoached in every playoff series I've watched. His INSISTENCE on keeping Marner/Mattews together baffles my mind to no end. Dubas probably won't be fired but he's made some moves I don't love and his contract negotiations were a total mess. Also Keefe is Dubas coach and he deserves blame in tying his team to him. Regardless the team is better suited than anything from 2005-2016 anyways.

[Ado05]

The Leafs are a lot closer to another rebuild than they are to a championship.

I disagree. If the Leafs' best players had shown up the way McDavid and especially Draisaitl have done for the Oilers so far in the playoffs, the Leafs would've beaten Tampa much more easily and probably be leading in the Florida series as well. Leafs stars have barely put up any points so far against Florida and obviously you can't win if your best players can't score.

If any of them had showed up and put up even a few points the Leafs wouldn't be down 3-0 right now.

Thats the whole point, the Leafs best players have never and will never show up.

[Dr Positivity]

Having zero powerplays was a killer, just not enough pressure by the core 4. The grinders almost bailed them out. The only part of Leafs roster I like more than the Panthers is the bottom 6. Panthers D line is not the best (Ekblad is overrated) but Montour is definitely better than Rielly. I don't understand Keefe benching 42 pt D man Gustaffson for nearly the entire playoffs on a team with Holl, washed Giordano, Lilegren, etc.

[Dr Positivity]

Any chance these guys come back from being down 0-3? Is it basically impossible like how it is in basketball?

It's happened a few times in the last 15 years but the Leafs fit the profile more of the team to blow the 3-0 lead, not the one to come back from it.

[bballsparkin]

The Leafs are not well balanced. I told my diehard Leaf friend trade Marner to the Kraken for their 2nd overall pick and cap space. Then use that space to fill out the roster with talent and grit. Now I'm not sure Seattle would have done that. But, I would think as a new franchise how could you say no to Marner. That pick was Benier. I have a no proof at all but a hunch he could be the best US player ever. My friend was like no way. Dubas thinking. With a hard cap you can only have so much top end talent if they dont' do all those little things.

I think we basketball fans have a better understanding of building a team in a cap environment. It's newer in the NHL.

[Dr Positivity]

Now that the 1st round monkey is luckily off their back I think they shouldn't panic. The goal should be to put together a bunch more good seasons and hope it comes together one year like the Caps. My prediction for this Leafs core is their peak success ends up being a finals loss, like perennial playoff letdown the Sharks. At least that would be fun.

[will]

Now that the 1st round monkey is luckily off their back I think they shouldn't panic. The goal should be to put together a bunch more good seasons and hope it comes together one year like the Caps. My prediction for this Leafs core is their peak success ends up being a finals loss, like perennial playoff letdown the Sharks. At least that would be fun.

Being a perennial playoff letdown like the Sharks would be a helluva leap, let alone win the cup.

This lot is so sorry. The lack of hustle, grit, desire, willingness and drive to lay it all out on the line is astounding. There is absolutely NO urgency at all.

Florida is getting in that ass on every single forecheck.

How is no one on the bench just losing their shi and yelling at the guys to get going? Break some sticks, toss some bottles, move some furniture. Even if it's just for show.

[SFour]

Is it fair to say that Panthers are the Heat of the NHL, while the Leafs are the Knicks

Panthers and Heat were both #1 seed last season...the following season they had a bad regular season then in the playoffs they started upsetting #1 seeds (Bruins/Bucks)

Leafs like the Knicks are a prestigious franchise but they're also both a laughing stock of each respective league...havent won a championship or had much playoff success in a long time.

[Madvillainy2004]

The Panthers really didn't play well in games 1 and 2 at all besides Bob. Bob is 2nd to Igor (the best goalie in the league by far) in goals saved above average. Woll and Samsonov are 19th and 20th. The series should really be at worst down 1-2 but that's hockey sometimes. The process was there the first 2 games but last night was the worst time to lay an egg for these guys and makes the whole series look way worst than what it is imo. Changes will be made tho, Keefe and Mitch for sure gone. Auston is the most talented leaf player of all time but if he wants 15+ a year for 8 you can't do that in a hard cap and you see whats out there for him.

[Tha Cynic]

Once July 1 hits, a bunch of No Movement Clauses kick in and the Leafs can't trade any of their core players.

Sadly none of the core players seems to have a secondary gear you need in the playoffs. In fact they look absolutely exhausted out there to the point where that alone would make me question if they can ever get better. I'm not sure what's wrong with Marner but I have never in my life seen a player more scared of the bigger stage. He legit looks shook out there any time he plays in the playoffs. He's the one the team should look to move above anyone else and try to get a couple of core guys who play a more aggressive hitting style. Someone like Tkachuck would have been perfect for this team to play with Matthews and Nylander. Nylander at least seems to be able to play keep away with the puck even if he refuses to take it to the net.

[JB7]

Moving one of the guys you mentioned and bringing in a couple of other people doesn't immediately make you a winner unless your remaining top players are performing their best. Hypothetically say you move Marner and bring in a couple of guys. That may help some, but Matthews, Nylander and Tavares still have to be leading the team and playing well for the Leafs to get far in the playoffs.

Right now that's the issue where our best players aren't stepping up enough against Florida otherwise they'd be leading this series by now. Also I don't know how its a little too late when Dubas brought in players that he thought would help the team gain more success in the playoffs.

Holding onto a core that has not got it done for 7 straight playoffs will get you nowhere.

Liljegren DESERVES to be in the lineup, its just idiot Keefe who believes Holl is a better choice when clearly Liljegren has been the better play for much of the season. Liljegren has made some mistakes no doubt, but they've been far fewer than other Dmen on the Leafs just that it seems like his mistakes give Keefe a reason not to play him compared to Holl who can make a ton of mistakes and still have Keefe believe in him. I like Holl and think generally he's decent, but Liljegren right now is clearly better and should be in the lineup fulltime to help the team as well as gain more experience.

As for Amirov he may have turned out well, but it sucks that he had cancer and probably won't ever play in the NHL. Right now if he can just beat cancer and live a normal life that will be the best outcome for him. Also I disagree about needing to draft defensemen when we already have several prospects that might be able to play in the NHL that won't be able to because there's no space for them. Liljegren and Timmins need to be in the lineup fulltime next season and between them and the vets we already have there's no spot for anyone else on the Leafs blueline right now.

On the otherhand you can never have enough talented forwards and as someone mentioned it would've been great if Dubas had taken a prospect like Dawson Mercer over Amirov, but unfortunately you can't plan for a player developing a longterm illness that may end their playing career before it even started.

Holl sucks, so saying Liljegren should start over him is nothing. Liljegren at best is a 5th/6th D man. If that is the second best prospect in 7 years worth of drafts for Dubas, that is proof positive the man does not know how to draft.

The Leafs blueline sucks. When Giordano (39) and Schenn (33) are required to play heavy minutes, that speaks volumes about the ability of Liljegren and Timmins (who are both 24).

Even if Amirov turned out, he was absolutely not what they needed - another soft skilled forward. Because clearly a team full of those players has brought the Leafs so much playoff success

The Leafs need balance in their lineup. They can only play so many soft skilled forwards. This isn't a figure skating competition.

If Dubas were to leave, the next GM will have pretty much no bad contracts to deal with outside of perhaps Murray and maybe Rielly unless he continues to play as good as he has during the playoffs. That's about it. Tavares isn't a great contract, but it isn't bad either and most other players are either on cheap and/or short term deals. The Leafs prospect pool will also be much better than before Dubas arrived and the team that he assembled now is still a top team in the NHL even if it struggles to have playoff success.

So you say the next GM will not have any bad contracts, and then you name three that could be bad contracts? The Leafs prospect pool will be much better? Who? Knies? Again, when Dubas came in, they had Matthews, Marner, and Nylander all just starting off on rookie deals, plus Rielly & Kadri who were both young and signed to amazing deals. He literally had his top two C's and top two wingers and top defenseman all lined up the moment he stepped in the door. And then he had another star (Tavares) want to come to the team. Honestly, with how piss poor Dubas has managed this job, I don't think an OHL team would touch him.

Also one thing you don't take into account is that its HARD to win a Stanley Cup and even good teams can often not have much playoff success. Just look at Ovechkin and the Caps who've had some of the best teams in the NHL for the past decade or so and yet they've NEVER gotten past the 2nd round in the playoffs except for ONE TIME when they actually won the cup. Ovechkin the soon to be greatest goal scorer in the NHL has only been past the 2nd round ONCE IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER. How crazy is that?

Ovechkin, as great of a goal scorer as he was, is not the type of player a successful playoff team generally builds around. He won that Cup out of sheer will, after all of the losing. Wish Matthews had that kind of drive for a playoff run. Most important position is goaltending, then probably the #1 D, then #1 C. Wingers cannot influence the game as much as those other positions, and that's why generally star wingers are not leading teams to Cups.

You got it backwards. Having one or two players being such a big influence makes winning much, MUCH easier when those players can play 40+ mins a game and carry their team. As I said the NHL as an actual TEAM sport where top to bottom your team needs to be good to have a chance at winning. Why do you think that its so much easier for top teams in the NBA to become dynasties and be repeat champions than it is in the NHL?

Yes, having one or two players on an NBA team that can carry the team makes it much easier to win. But it is getting those players that is so difficult in the NBA (because there are so few superstars), and Masai managed to trade for one, which is pretty much unheard of, unless the player is forcing a trade to their team of choice. The NHL is more of a team sport, but talent still dominates, even in the playoffs, because scoring opportunities in the playoffs are usually generated on the powerplay, where talent prevails. Dubas was given that type of talent from the get go, and could not build a coherent team around it, which is pathetic, because all he had to do was add role players. The hardest talent to acquire he already had.

There are also quite a few repeat champions in the NHL as well (talent still tends to prevail).

[JB7]

Once July 1 hits, a bunch of No Movement Clauses kick in and the Leafs can't trade any of their core players.

Sadly none of the core players seems to have a secondary gear you need in the playoffs. In fact they look absolutely exhausted out there to the point where that alone would make me question if they can ever get better. I'm not sure what's wrong with Marner but I have never in my life seen a player more scared of the bigger stage. He legit looks shook out there any time he plays in the playoffs. He's the one the team should look to move above anyone else and try to get a couple of core guys who play a more aggressive hitting style. Someone like Tkachuck would have been perfect for this team to play with Matthews and Nylander. Nylander at least seems to be able to play keep away with the puck even if he refuses to take it to the net.

What that means is the new GM will need to move quick. Dubas has screwed the incoming GM. Expect a massive bidding war for Matthews leading up to July 1st.

Nylander can only submit a 10 team no trade list, so he could still be moveable after July 1st.

Marner is not moveable at all on that contract. Only hope is he offers a significant hometown discount on his next deal, because he definitely didn't earn his current deal.

Tavares has been on NMC since he signed. Plus, no way you trade the one Toronto born star who signed with the team. No Toronto born star would ever sign with the Leafs again.

[GQStylin]

Holding onto a core that has not got it done for 7 straight playoffs will get you nowhere.

The core even after 7 seasons are mostly in their mid to late 20s. So are you saying Leafs management should've blown things up after 3-4 years of not winning a playoff round and traded away one or more of the Leafs star players who were in their early/mid 20s?

Holl sucks, so saying Liljegren should start over him is nothing. Liljegren at best is a 5th/6th D man. If that is the second best prospect in 7 years worth of drafts for Dubas, that is proof positive the man does not know how to draft.

I'm betting you definitely don't watch the Leafs on a regular basis because if you did you would know that Holl doesn't suck and Liljegren is underutilized and is far better than being a 5/6th Dman as you proclaim. Holl is alright as a bottom pairing guy while Liljegren looked good while playing 20+ mins a game when a number of Leafs Dmen were injured early in the season.

The Leafs blueline sucks. When Giordano (39) and Schenn (33) are required to play heavy minutes, that speaks volumes about the ability of Liljegren and Timmins (who are both 24).

Schenn is playing fine in the playoffs right now so don't know what the problem is there. Gio is playing less than 15 mins a game this series. Keefe is an idiot for not playing Liljegren regularly in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean he isn't ready. The guy was on the ice for the least amount of 5 vs 5 goals among all Dmen during the regular season so go ask Keefe why he's still choosing Holl over him.

Even if Amirov turned out, he was absolutely not what they needed - another soft skilled forward. Because clearly a team full of those players has brought the Leafs so much playoff success

How do you even know if Amirov is soft when you probably never even seen him play before? Just making an assumption right?

So you say the next GM will not have any bad contracts, and then you name three that could be bad contracts? The Leafs prospect pool will be much better? Who? Knies? Again, when Dubas came in, they had Matthews, Marner, and Nylander all just starting off on rookie deals, plus Rielly & Kadri who were both young and signed to amazing deals. He literally had his top two C's and top two wingers and top defenseman all lined up the moment he stepped in the door. And then he had another star (Tavares) want to come to the team. Honestly, with how piss poor Dubas has managed this job, I don't think an OHL team would touch him.

Marner and Matthews were the only prospects when Dubas took over. Rielly, Kadri and Nylander were already roster players. Behind those guys the Leafs had very little in terms of quality/promising prospects that could come up behind our young core in the coming years.

Also on the one hand you say the Leafs star players aren't good enough to win and then on the otherhand say that Dubas inherited an embarrassment of riches to work with. So which is it then? If Dubas inherited a great young core, then why aren't they getting it done to the point where now people also say some part of this core needs to go? Dubas had a good core to work with, but as we've seen now at least so far these talented players aren't rising to the occasion and leading the team. So to say he inherited a great core is incorrect.

Ovechkin, as great of a goal scorer as he was, is not the type of player a successful playoff team generally builds around. He won that Cup out of sheer will, after all of the losing. Wish Matthews had that kind of drive for a playoff run. Most important position is goaltending, then probably the #1 D, then #1 C. Wingers cannot influence the game as much as those other positions, and that's why generally star wingers are not leading teams to Cups.

So you say Tkachuk is the kind of player the Leafs need and yet you say Ovechkin IS NOT the type of player to build around? LOL Ovechkin IS Tkachuk with more offense. Tkachuk has averaged a little over 100 hits per season while Ove has averaged 200+ for a good portion of his long career and he hits like a truck.

Yes, having one or two players on an NBA team that can carry the team makes it much easier to win. But it is getting those players that is so difficult in the NBA (because there are so few superstars), and Masai managed to trade for one, which is pretty much unheard of, unless the player is forcing a trade to their team of choice.

Masai was only able to get a star like Kawhi because he didn't want to play for San Antonio anymore otherwise there's no way Kawhi would choose to go to Toronto. Heck even after the trade people weren't sure if he'd report to the Raps or not. So good on Masai for taking advantage of a situation that arose, but as we saw Kawhi left as soon as he was able to. On the otherhand LA seems to have star players falling into their lap with guys who want to play for the Lakers. So it seems like its difficult to get good players for some teams and not so difficult for others.

[fbalmeida]

Cursed franchise and the most psychologically tortured fanbase in the history of organized sports. Anyone who bad mouths Leafs fans, in general, or wishes ill-will against this team needs to go **** themselves.

This is the franchise that brings in a guy who scored the game 7 Stanley cup winning goal against Boston, in Boston, to do stuff like this in a must-win game.

Read on Twitter

Naturally, we had to have a self-inflicted twist of fate with Schenn stuka-bombing Samsonov and knocking him out of the game. Somehow I feel they (the hockey Gods) are not finished with us yet. The worst may be yet to come.

According to Chris Johnston, the last time the Leafs big-four went two consecutive games without at least one of them scoring a goal?
- November 2021

That is, before it happened in this series vs Florida.

Oh and the last time the Leafs big-four went three consecutive games without at least one of them scoring a goal?

IT'S NEVER HAPPENED! In five NHL seasons.

That is, of course, before this series vs Florida.

So what all of this tells me is that the roster makeup may be irrelevant: this franchise needs to hire a **** witchdoctor and to negotiate a Faustian bargain directly with the devil.

But naturally, if you look further into the muck, there are a few things that Leafs brass should look at and try to improve, and can be rightfully condemned for not having improved already.

Matthews is arguably one of the softest and least physical 6-3 C's of all time. Marner just disappears in terms of physicality. Tavares is an overpaid specialist, who should probably never have been named captain. And Nylander has unbearable effort, commitment, and awareness issues. The common theme of our perennial early playoff departures of the Matthews-Marner era is that other teams just seem to make a 6'3 and 6'0 forward combo look like they're 5-9 and 5-6. They simply just take away open ice space in the neutral zone, consistently, and let our top-heavy reliance do its thing.

So we either break up the core and trade one of the big-four to solidify the rest of the roster, or you try to offset the big-four's weaknesses by upgrading the blueline. Our team's main strength is supposedly the ability of moving the puck forward quickly with possession. That's fine, but we simply haven't had the elite two-way defensemen that can sustain that. We'd be fine if Rielly was our 2nd best offensive D. I think having defenseman who could better patrol the neutral zone in a 2-way roll would open things up for the big four.

Two days wait until game 4.