OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[fbalmeida]

Lastly, I'll finish by saying that it hurts, horribly bad. It feels so much worse now than it did immediately after I saw Reinhart score the OT winner. Watching it on a full-game replay over breakfast with my daughters before the school run, I simply walked up from my seat and abandoned the kitchen table. My daughters stared at the screen in silence. I carried on with my morning as if nothing had happened. A morning later and I'm typing this while holding back tears of rage.

I can really feel a distinct deep sadness inside me, slowly churning into a level of anger. No doubt, every fan is going through something similar. We've been let down before, but I think it's different this time. This time, barring a miracle comeback, it'll blow up in someone's face. Front office and/or players. Heads will certainly roll this off-season.

[Raps in 4]

This time, barring a miracle comeback, it'll blow up in someone's face. Front office and/or players. Heads will certainly roll this off-season.

Will it though? We got past the first round. That's all anyone expected from this team. There was never any ambition to go further.

We're like the Knicks, just happy to win a round.

[fbalmeida]

If we're happy to win a round.... well, where's the blasted happiness?

[El Mas Chingon]

Lastly, I'll finish by saying that it hurts, horribly bad. It feels so much worse now than it did immediately after I saw Reinhart score the OT winner. Watching it on a full-game replay over breakfast with my daughters before the school run, I simply walked up from my seat and abandoned the kitchen table. My daughters stared at the screen in silence. I carried on with my morning as if nothing had happened. A morning later and I'm typing this while holding back tears of rage.

I can really feel a distinct deep sadness inside me, slowly churning into a level of anger. No doubt, every fan is going through something similar. We've been let down before, but I think it's different this time. This time, barring a miracle comeback, it'll blow up in someone's face. Front office and/or players. Heads will certainly roll this off-season.

You're in an abusive relationship.

I broke up with the Leafs in 2004. Best decision of my life.

[Brinbe]

If we're happy to win a round.... well, where's the blasted happiness?

There should be none. 1 round is literally only a quarter of the way there

It really adds to the ridiculousness of the situation.

But it makes sense when you puzzle it out. The depth guys have mostly showed up but the stars have ghosted. And Matthews is clearly playing hurt imo, Marner's style/size isn't built for the ruggedness of playoff hockey and the pressure gets to him (same applies to Matthews too). Tavares cares but he's washed physically at this point and can't keep up and Nylander is Bargnani mentally but tons more skilled.

Feels like they're in the same situation the Raps are in.

[Steelo Green]

Hockey is a bit different than other sports. Yzerman was the universal choker for 12 years and then the dynasty started.

The Bolts were swept 4-0 against Columbus after one of the greatest seasons of all time.

Washington, St. Louis, Colorado were all seen as the guys who never got it done.

Changes need to be made for sure, but it can just turn sometimes.

[ATLTimekeeper]

If we're happy to win a round.... well, where's the blasted happiness?

I share the disappointment. I was on here in the Tampa series when they were up saying Dubas needs 2 rounds to save his job. Standards need to be higher.

Troubling sign #1, a guy with 3 games NHL experience was relied on to provide offense on a team with Stanley Cup intentions.
Troubling sign #2, Matthews/Marner close friend Tkatchuk takes aim at that rookie's head. No response. Sam Bennett "finishes the job." No response. Next game, no response. Luke Schenn with like two weeks experience as a Leaf on this team is out there punching all his best friends on the Lightening. Bennett continues to run at Leafs in game 3. No response. Leadership needs a shake-up.

[Lord_Zedd]

If we're happy to win a round.... well, where's the blasted happiness?

I share the disappointment. I was on here in the Tampa series when they were up saying Dubas needs 2 rounds to save his job. Standards need to be higher.

Troubling sign #1, a guy with 3 games NHL experience was relied on to provide offense on a team with Stanley Cup intentions.
Troubling sign #2, Matthews/Marner close friend Tkatchuk takes aim at that rookie's head. No response. Sam Bennett "finishes the job." No response. Next game, no response. Luke Schenn with like two weeks experience as a Leaf on this team is out there punching all his best friends on the Lightening. Bennett continues to run at Leafs in game 3. No response. Leadership needs a shake-up.

Isn't #1 a more (un)common occurrence in the NHL? I remember PK Subban, Jarome Iglina and our very own Matt Murray making their mark in the playoffs while barely sniffing an NHL regular season game. And there's Sam Bennett too

Leaf fans are already talking about Knies being the next great Lonny Bohonos lol

[Clay Davis]

Hockey is a bit different than other sports. Yzerman was the universal choker for 12 years and then the dynasty started.

The Bolts were swept 4-0 against Columbus after one of the greatest seasons of all time.

Washington, St. Louis, Colorado were all seen as the guys who never got it done.

Changes need to be made for sure, but it can just turn sometimes.

Yup. And there was the Boston thing this year.

[fbalmeida]

If we're happy to win a round.... well, where's the blasted happiness?

I share the disappointment. I was on here in the Tampa series when they were up saying Dubas needs 2 rounds to save his job. Standards need to be higher.

Troubling sign #1, a guy with 3 games NHL experience was relied on to provide offense on a team with Stanley Cup intentions.
Troubling sign #2, Matthews/Marner close friend Tkatchuk takes aim at that rookie's head. No response. Sam Bennett "finishes the job." No response. Next game, no response. Luke Schenn with like two weeks experience as a Leaf on this team is out there punching all his best friends on the Lightening. Bennett continues to run at Leafs in game 3. No response. Leadership needs a shake-up.

For sure. I would've gone so far as unleashing Simmonds in the game after Knies got knocked, for no other purpose, as an immediate response. Just to make a point.

One troubling sign I'd submit is that vs the Panthers and for stretches against the Lightning, it seems Schenn is the only Leaf that is consistently able to create and dominate space.

[M3tro]

Being down 3-0 is not the death sentence everyone is making it out to be in NHL hockey.

Call me crazy, but I still think this series gets extended.

[ItsDanger]

Being down 3-0 is not the death sentence everyone is making it out to be in NHL hockey.

Call me crazy, but I still think this series gets extended.

Maybe they can push it to 6 games. The problem most have is that the issues with this team were easily identified 3-4 years ago and nothing has changed.

[fbalmeida]

I'm personally going to start blaming the Southern Ontarian talent pool. My reasoning is that there's really no one else left to blame.

Ballard was naturally and almost singlehandedly responsible to blame for the 1967-1990 interregnum.

From 1991-2003 the Fletcher (Gilmour) and Quinn (Sundin) era delivered competitive hockey, with the exception of a quick rebuild period in between. They preferred a hardnosed playing style and an ethos that the fans could happily identify with. Just a pinch of talent and an overload of heart and toughness, featuring a half-dozen players whose bodies were literally held together by nuts, bolts, and screws, but with all the heart in the world. We came close, but the blame would ultimately fall to some bad calls, or some slight tangential lack of speed, size, talent, or physical fitness to carry us across a specific series. Ultimately, four conference finals appearances in 12 seasons was an acceptable pace.

From 2005, post-lockout, to the present day, we've had an initial period of organizational confusion, followed by an unprecedented attempt at a long term rebuild centred on a highly talented and non-physical core. Not only has this strategy flown in the face of the conventional development strategies of habitual Stanley Cup contenders, it's also committed us to slotting half our cap space to a core of highly paid non-physical players who struggle to fit together for playoff-style hockey.

We can suspect that another playoff disaster will impel this front office, or the front office that succeeds Dubas, to come in and presumably revert to attempt to build a young, big, fast, and tough physical core around one or two gifted players. But we've tried that under Fletcher. More recently, it was also Burke's idea. It didn't get us there.

So this is the crux of the problem. The franchise has attempted going down several different avenues in several decades. Nothing has worked. The only avenue left, that I can think of at least, is banking on the franchise's misery. The emergence of a generation of hometown players that have spontaneously decided that it's time to put an end, to what is by now, an international disgrace: the Toronto Maple Leafs' 55 year cup drought.

Ending this disgrace has to start being thought of and considered as the highest professional achievement of every single young Leafs-cheering hockey-inclined athlete growing up in the GTA and beyond. Ultimately, it's a societal problem, in which every Leafs fan that interacts with the NHL development pipeline's grassroots level, from every minor league hockey coach to the local recreation centre's janitor, should instruct kids, from the very first moment they lace up their first pair of skates, that their ultimate goal is to win a Stanley Cup for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

So, yes, I think our fanbase should begin this process, violently, by pointing the finger at every single homegrown Leaf fan playing in the NHL who haven't made themselves available at first chance to play for the Leafs, no matter the marginal cost to their paychecks. Of course this could really only begin by blowing up our current overpriced core.

Enough is enough.

[fbalmeida]

Hockey is a bit different than other sports. Yzerman was the universal choker for 12 years and then the dynasty started.

The Bolts were swept 4-0 against Columbus after one of the greatest seasons of all time.

Washington, St. Louis, Colorado were all seen as the guys who never got it done.

Changes need to be made for sure, but it can just turn sometimes.

I'd disagree about Yzerman. By the time he turned 22, he had already led his team to a conference finals and returned from a torn ligament to play in a 2nd consecutive conference finals. There was a period of wilderness before the Red Wings dynasty, but he established his playoff credentials very early in his career in a way that, unfortunately, none of our big-four, Tavares' included, never have.

[sidsid]

Is it fair to say that Panthers are the Heat of the NHL, while the Leafs are the Knicks

Panthers and Heat were both #1 seed last season...the following season they had a bad regular season then in the playoffs they started upsetting #1 seeds (Bruins/Bucks)

Leafs like the Knicks are a prestigious franchise but they're also both a laughing stock of each respective league...havent won a championship or had much playoff success in a long time.

I'd say the better comp for the Leafs is the Sixers over the years.

Embiid being an MVP candidate every year to Matthews, but with the playoff disappointments tarnishing his rep. Marner looking like the Ben Simmons of the group (regular season accolades, loss of impact in the playoffs). You could do a Harden/Maxey comp for Tavares/Nylander if you don't look at it too closely.

You're never confident in what you'll get game to game and the vibes are always bad.

[SFour]

Is it fair to say that Panthers are the Heat of the NHL, while the Leafs are the Knicks

Panthers and Heat were both #1 seed last season...the following season they had a bad regular season then in the playoffs they started upsetting #1 seeds (Bruins/Bucks)

Leafs like the Knicks are a prestigious franchise but they're also both a laughing stock of each respective league...havent won a championship or had much playoff success in a long time.

I'd say the better comp for the Leafs is the Sixers over the years.

Embiid being an MVP candidate every year to Matthews, but with the playoff disappointments tarnishing his rep. Marner looking like the Ben Simmons of the group (regular season accolades, loss of impact in the playoffs). You could do a Harden/Maxey comp for Tavares/Nylander if you don't look at it too closely.

You're never confident in what you'll get game to game and the vibes are always bad.

For sure talent-wise Sixers would be a better comparison....Sixers at least can make it past the 1st round but getting past the 2nd round has been their problem. But in a way it's pretty much the same as the 1st round ceiling the Leafs had faced, being a perennial 1st/2nd round exit team is the same **** when the expectation is set at conference finals/championship.

[Brinbe]

I'm personally going to start blaming the Southern Ontarian talent pool. My reasoning is that there's really no one else left to blame.

Ballard was naturally and almost singlehandedly responsible to blame for the 1967-1990 interregnum.

From 1991-2003 the Fletcher (Gilmour) and Quinn (Sundin) era delivered competitive hockey, with the exception of a quick rebuild period in between. They preferred a hardnosed playing style and an ethos that the fans could happily identify with. Just a pinch of talent and an overload of heart and toughness, featuring a half-dozen players whose bodies were literally held together by nuts, bolts, and screws, but with all the heart in the world. We came close, but the blame would ultimately fall to some bad calls, or some slight tangential lack of speed, size, talent, or physical fitness to carry us across a specific series. Ultimately, four conference finals appearances in 12 seasons was an acceptable pace.

From 2005, post-lockout, to the present day, we've had an initial period of organizational confusion, followed by an unprecedented attempt at a long term rebuild centred on a highly talented and non-physical core. Not only has this strategy flown in the face of the conventional development strategies of habitual Stanley Cup contenders, it's also committed us to slotting half our cap space to a core of highly paid non-physical players who struggle to fit together for playoff-style hockey.

We can suspect that another playoff disaster will impel this front office, or the front office that succeeds Dubas, to come in and presumably revert to attempt to build a young, big, fast, and tough physical core around one or two gifted players. But we've tried that under Fletcher. More recently, it was also Burke's idea. It didn't get us there.

So this is the crux of the problem. The franchise has attempted going down several different avenues in several decades. Nothing has worked. The only avenue left, that I can think of at least, is banking on the franchise's misery. The emergence of a generation of hometown players that have spontaneously decided that it's time to put an end, to what is by now, an international disgrace: the Toronto Maple Leafs' 55 year cup drought.

Ending this disgrace has to start being thought of and considered as the highest professional achievement of every single young Leafs-cheering hockey-inclined athlete growing up in the GTA and beyond. Ultimately, it's a societal problem, in which every Leafs fan that interacts with the NHL development pipeline's grassroots level, from every minor league hockey coach to the local recreation centre's janitor, should instruct kids, from the very first moment they lace up their first pair of skates, that their ultimate goal is to win a Stanley Cup for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

So, yes, I think our fanbase should begin this process, violently, by pointing the finger at every single homegrown Leaf fan playing in the NHL who haven't made themselves available at first chance to play for the Leafs, no matter the marginal cost to their paychecks. Of course this could really only begin by blowing up our current overpriced core.

Enough is enough.

nah. that's already happening and it's not working. marner is a mental mess exactly because of that unhealthy pressure and toxicity in this market. no one wants to deal with boomer leaf fans angst.

pushing like 60 years of baggage onto a bunch of guys who weren't born the last time the leafs played in the 3rd round isn't healthy.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

well, Leafs can win 4 games in a row if they decide to actually show up after being drunk winning the first round.

I believe ... and I'm not even a Leafs fan.

[JB7]

The core even after 7 seasons are mostly in their mid to late 20s. So are you saying Leafs management should've blown things up after 3-4 years of not winning a playoff round and traded away one or more of the Leafs star players who were in their early/mid 20s?

I would have traded Matthews after the Montreal series (5th straight 1st round loss) after the 2020-21 playoffs, because at that point he still had 3 seasons left on his deal, and would have commanded a massive haul. Even after last year's loss, he had a 60 goal season, and probably would have still commanded a massive haul of young players and picks to build out the roster. Now they have one season left and a window of less than 2 months to deal him, before his NMC kicks in.

I'm betting you definitely don't watch the Leafs on a regular basis because if you did you would know that Holl doesn't suck and Liljegren is underutilized and is far better than being a 5/6th Dman as you proclaim. Holl is alright as a bottom pairing guy while Liljegren looked good while playing 20+ mins a game when a number of Leafs Dmen were injured early in the season.

No, I don't watch the Leafs at all. I vowed not to watch them again until they won a 1st round. They weren't worth my time. From what I have heard from avid Leaf fans who watch every game is Holl generally sucks. From the little I watched of him in the 2nd round, it seemed to confirm their opinions. How Holl and Liljegren perform in the regular season, when the stakes and physicality are not as great, is not the same as in the playoffs.

Schenn is playing fine in the playoffs right now so don't know what the problem is there. Gio is playing less than 15 mins a game this series. Keefe is an idiot for not playing Liljegren regularly in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean he isn't ready. The guy was on the ice for the least amount of 5 vs 5 goals among all Dmen during the regular season so go ask Keefe why he's still choosing Holl over him.

Schenn looks fine, and I actually like him out their with Rielly, but keep in mind, he was barely a 6th D man on the Lightning's roster two year's ago. The reason Schenn looks so good on the Leafs D, is because it sucks. If they had any real defensemen, both Schenn and Giordano would not be needed to the extent that they are used.

How do you even know if Amirov is soft when you probably never even seen him play before? Just making an assumption right?

Just assumed same type of player Dubas has drafted year over year (skilled forwards under 6ft). But the point was not about Amirov, but rather about Dubas passing over two big, physical and mobile Canadian D men in Guhle and Schneider.

Marner and Matthews were the only prospects when Dubas took over. Rielly, Kadri and Nylander were already roster players. Behind those guys the Leafs had very little in terms of quality/promising prospects that could come up behind our young core in the coming years.

Also on the one hand you say the Leafs star players aren't good enough to win and then on the otherhand say that Dubas inherited an embarrassment of riches to work with. So which is it then? If Dubas inherited a great young core, then why aren't they getting it done to the point where now people also say some part of this core needs to go? Dubas had a good core to work with, but as we've seen now at least so far these talented players aren't rising to the occasion and leading the team. So to say he inherited a great core is incorrect.

Marner and Matthews both entered the league in 2016-17. Nylander played 22 games in 2015-16. 2016-17 was Rielly's 4th season (so 3 years in the league before M&M). Kadri's played 6 seasons before 2016-17, and really only played a full season starting in 2013-14.

Dubas had star players that couldn't win, but would command a high value on the trade market because of their potential. He should have made moves to compliment the core. Big part of the problem was what he paid all of M&M and Tavares, which limited his ability to build out the team. At that point, he needed to move one, to round out the team with a more balanced roster, but he didn't. He tried to rely on the draft, but as previously discussed was horrible on that front, and could not compliment his core with young players on rookie deals.

So you say Tkachuk is the kind of player the Leafs need and yet you say Ovechkin IS NOT the type of player to build around? LOL Ovechkin IS Tkachuk with more offense. Tkachuk has averaged a little over 100 hits per season while Ove has averaged 200+ for a good portion of his long career and he hits like a truck.

I never said Tkachuk was the kind of player the Leafs need. That was someone else. I wouldn't build around either of them, unless I had no other choice. Sinking a huge chuck of your cap space into a winger generally doesn't result in a lot of success.

Masai was only able to get a star like Kawhi because he didn't want to play for San Antonio anymore otherwise there's no way Kawhi would choose to go to Toronto. Heck even after the trade people weren't sure if he'd report to the Raps or not. So good on Masai for taking advantage of a situation that arose, but as we saw Kawhi left as soon as he was able to. On the otherhand LA seems to have star players falling into their lap with guys who want to play for the Lakers. So it seems like its difficult to get good players for some teams and not so difficult for others.

Masai made the risky move, acquiring a player he knew would most likely not resign (Kawhi made his intentions known for awhile he wanted to go to LA), in order to win, in a league where it is extremely difficult to win.

And you just proved the point. If you are a desirable market like LA, you get the stars, that lead to multiple championships. Toronto is not LA, but Masai managed to do what seemed impossible.

[rocky_da_best]

If we're happy to win a round.... well, where's the blasted happiness?

I share the disappointment. I was on here in the Tampa series when they were up saying Dubas needs 2 rounds to save his job. Standards need to be higher.

Troubling sign #1, a guy with 3 games NHL experience was relied on to provide offense on a team with Stanley Cup intentions.
Troubling sign #2, Matthews/Marner close friend Tkatchuk takes aim at that rookie's head. No response. Sam Bennett "finishes the job." No response. Next game, no response. Luke Schenn with like two weeks experience as a Leaf on this team is out there punching all his best friends on the Lightening. Bennett continues to run at Leafs in game 3. No response. Leadership needs a shake-up.

Doesnt help when our best players are more interested in dipsey doodling around guys in their own zone instead of making the right hockey play and getting the puck down the ice. Wish Don Cherry was still on TV so I could hear him rip into this team.