Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[Scase]

Not that I was a fan of the Jak trade, because I wasn't. But again this argument is disingenious as the Jak for FRP was pretty much 1:1 (a few seconds that could be attributed to him or Khem).

The Pascal trade is more than just the single FRP.

Fair enough, I dont think anyone ever expects to get exactly back the same quality, but this just goes to show how bad the trade has been. The likelihood of getting a player better than Jak with the 7th OA pick is way higher than whatever crap we got from the Siakam trade.

With the Siakam trade return, we'd be lucky to even get a role player at this point. Both were bad trades, but for different reasons.

When you make trades like this, there are probabilities attached to the picks. If we pick a better player at 21 than the Spurs get at say 7, does that mean our trade was better?

Poeltl cost 1 top 6 protected pick 1 year removed. Siakam cost 2 top 4 protected picks along with Ochai and Kelly. It’s clear that Siakam got the much better package.

I don’t like the package but I thought we should have re-signed Siakam. If you were in the trade bandwagon, this is as good as it’s gonna get. People here were hype about that garbage Atlanta package in the off season for crying out loud.

In short, no.

In long, still no, but reasons

I've made this argument before, but the player that is ultimately picked, is absolutely irrelevant to the "quality" of the trade.

Trading prime Lebron for a SRP would be a horrible trade even if that SRP was the 2014 41st OA pick. Picks have inherent value that is unrelated to who ultimately gets selected with said pick.

A 1st is more valuable than a 2nd, than a 3rd, and so on. A 7th can be packaged to move up into the top 5 without too much more in additional assets. Trading up from 21 to top 5 is virtually impossible.

It's precisely why everyone was so upset that we had such weak protections on the pick for Jak. Because a top 10 pick is more valuable, than say an 11-15th. The inherent value of the pick is what the "quality" of the trade is based off of, not the far flung future of what a pick might become, teams are buying lotto tickets here, and you sell them on the "what if". The higher the chance of that "what if" paying out, the higher the cost.

[Duffman100]

There is something that annoy me with pundit that blast the Siakam trade in the past few days because Siakam is having very good playoffs so far .

They complete forget that the reason the Raptors trade Siakam was to reset timeline around Scottie Barnes and avoid to max long term a borderline max player . The fear with Siakam was staying a “mid team”, play-in / first round exit ceiling with limited ways to improve the team . Also let’s face it the relation was not good since Raptors refuse to considers super max him should he become eligible.

The goal of the trade and we can’t disagree with that route, was never to get back a player as good as Siakam . In fact , that would be a home run if that was the case . Masai would be a genie .

Now in term of the return we got , we can debate about the timing of the trade and if moving him sooner would have fetch a better return . Maybe it is maybe not . Let’s assume it is. Still , unlikely we get a player as good as Siakam .

Obviously a pundit can disagree with the direction we took . That pundit may feel that we should have kept Siakam and that we were close to being a contender with Barnes, RJ, Quick, Jakob and Gradey.

But comparing any player we get from the Siakam trade to Siakam is pointless IMO. Of course Siakam will be better . If not, this means Siakam is falling off a cliff.

Siakam is a very good player . In the 20 to 40 range in the NBA depending of the metric/ranking or how much you value that type of player. Can we please not be surprise each time he is having a good game ?

At the end of the day, what he do with Indiana is irrelevant to how this move will play out for the Raptors long term . And moving Siakam will have a bigger impact that the return itself .



[x]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=bbHklJ8GtSbhRHldSOdiIA[/x]

Grange is on a anti-Masai, Rogers will rule the world beat at the moment. I’d take what comes out of his mouth with a grain of salt right now as there is clearly an agenda around what he’s putting out there right now.

Just look at the Blue Jays if you want a grass is greener idea...

[mieshpal]

Fair enough, I dont think anyone ever expects to get exactly back the same quality, but this just goes to show how bad the trade has been. The likelihood of getting a player better than Jak with the 7th OA pick is way higher than whatever crap we got from the Siakam trade.

With the Siakam trade return, we'd be lucky to even get a role player at this point. Both were bad trades, but for different reasons.

An all NBA player hitting 30 years old. Not 32. Not 34. 30! Exchanged for an poo poo platter is a **** situation no matter how you slice it. It just doesn't happen often in this league, partly because most FO wouldnt let it get to that point.

What's the closest analogue to this, PG13? He's the same tier player as Siakam IMO, maybe a touch higher, but he had just signed a new contract IIRC and was only 1 year in.

Comparatively, he netted OKC : Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps. Granted he came in second in MVP voting the season prior, but I can't help but think that gap in returns was a touch wider than it should have been

That was a bad deal for clips. The fact SGA is included makes it a horrible deal, let alone all the picks

Sent from my Pixel 8 using RealGM mobile app

[Fairview4Life]

Fair enough, I dont think anyone ever expects to get exactly back the same quality, but this just goes to show how bad the trade has been. The likelihood of getting a player better than Jak with the 7th OA pick is way higher than whatever crap we got from the Siakam trade.

With the Siakam trade return, we'd be lucky to even get a role player at this point. Both were bad trades, but for different reasons.

An all NBA player hitting 30 years old. Not 32. Not 34. 30! Exchanged for an poo poo platter is a **** situation no matter how you slice it. It just doesn't happen often in this league, partly because most FO wouldnt let it get to that point.

What's the closest analogue to this, PG13? He's the same tier player as Siakam IMO, maybe a touch higher, but he had just signed a new contract IIRC and was only 1 year in.

Comparatively, he netted OKC : Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps. Granted he came in second in MVP voting the season prior, but I can't help but think that gap in returns was a touch wider than it should have been :lol:

George was 28, 3rd in MVP voting, 3rd in DPOY voting and on the all D 1st team, he had 3 years left on his contract and trading for him is what Kawhi was demanding in order to sign with a team. Pascal was not on an all NBA team last season and probably won't be this year, and wasn't an all star this year, his contract was expiring, and he had already shot down trades to other teams in the summer with public comments about testing free agency and apparently was colluding behind the scenes with Halliburton to get to Indiana. That's a pretty large gap in circumstances.

Also just beyond that there seems to be a lot of reluctance from teams to trade big packages of picks anymore. That might change again but teams seem pretty gunshy now that the Suns are failing pretty spectacularly.

[anotherhomer]

i hate to say this....but Blake Murphy, Will Lou were right

the roster construction was really bad, even if they were straddling the line between rebuild, compete and re-tool,
they missed on too many key players

that said, i do agree that Nick Nurse had to go.... you not going to retool with such a player

[Badonkadonk]

An all NBA player hitting 30 years old. Not 32. Not 34. 30! Exchanged for an poo poo platter is a **** situation no matter how you slice it. It just doesn't happen often in this league, partly because most FO wouldnt let it get to that point.

What's the closest analogue to this, PG13? He's the same tier player as Siakam IMO, maybe a touch higher, but he had just signed a new contract IIRC and was only 1 year in.

Comparatively, he netted OKC : Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps. Granted he came in second in MVP voting the season prior, but I can't help but think that gap in returns was a touch wider than it should have been

George was 28, 3rd in MVP voting, 3rd in DPOY voting and on the all D 1st team, he had 3 years left on his contract and trading for him is what Kawhi was demanding in order to sign with a team. Pascal was not on an all NBA team last season and probably won't be this year, and wasn't an all star this year, his contract was expiring, and he had already shot down trades to other teams in the summer with public comments about testing free agency and apparently was colluding behind the scenes with Halliburton to get to Indiana. That's a pretty large gap in circumstances.

Also just beyond that there seems to be a lot of reluctance from teams to trade big packages of picks anymore. That might change again but teams seem pretty gunshy now that the Suns are failing pretty spectacularly.

The Gobert effect. That massive overpay was an inflection point for "win now" deals imo, and he was locked in for another 4 years at the time of the deal and not a pending FA.

[JB7]

An all NBA player hitting 30 years old. Not 32. Not 34. 30! Exchanged for an poo poo platter is a **** situation no matter how you slice it. It just doesn't happen often in this league, partly because most FO wouldnt let it get to that point.

What's the closest analogue to this, PG13? He's the same tier player as Siakam IMO, maybe a touch higher, but he had just signed a new contract IIRC and was only 1 year in.

Comparatively, he netted OKC : Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps. Granted he came in second in MVP voting the season prior, but I can't help but think that gap in returns was a touch wider than it should have been

George was 28, 3rd in MVP voting, 3rd in DPOY voting and on the all D 1st team, he had 3 years left on his contract and trading for him is what Kawhi was demanding in order to sign with a team. Pascal was not on an all NBA team last season and probably won't be this year, and wasn't an all star this year, his contract was expiring, and he had already shot down trades to other teams in the summer with public comments about testing free agency and apparently was colluding behind the scenes with Halliburton to get to Indiana. That's a pretty large gap in circumstances.

Also just beyond that there seems to be a lot of reluctance from teams to trade big packages of picks anymore. That might change again but teams seem pretty gunshy now that the Suns are failing pretty spectacularly.

Yes, the PG deal cannot ignore the fact that the leverage OKC had was Kawhi wanting LAC to trade for PG, in order for Kawhi to sign, so the deal was essentially all of that (Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps) for PG & Kawhi.

Wouldn't be surprised if Masai actually helped OKC fleece LAC by playing along like they might make a trade to acquire PG to satisfy Kawhi (OKC was floating trade scenarios with Raps to move PG here) because I'm sure Masai ultimately knew Kawhi wanted to go back to LA, and regardless of whatever deal he made, was not going to sign long-term with the Raps. But by Masai playing along forced LAC to toss more in the deal, under a tight deadline (FA signing period for Kawhi).

[JB7]

Masai had 0 leverage with Siakam.

It’s why Siakam’s camp was able to veto trades that would of gave us a better return, he chose the Pacers and there was nothing we could do about it outside of giving him a 5 year max contract. (Which would be completely idiotic)

Some of us saw this coming a mile away, hence calling the FO to be proactive instead of reactive for the last 3 years but alas, here we are.

The FO’s reaps what it sows.

I find it highly amusing that the people who were crying about not wanting Siakam traded are the ones upset and shocked at his return package after Masai kicked the can down the road one too many times.

Who's to say the Raps FO didn't see the same thing, but were being offered crap for Pascal straight-up years before the deal.

It seems they tried to offer Pascal plus pieces for stars that had become available (Durant/Dame) but were unsuccessful. So it wasn't that they were wedded to Pascal. They just probably weren't offered enough to warrant trading him until it got to the point that they didn't want to extend him, and then they took the crap offer.

[mieshpal]

We shall see how far Indy goes. They won against a team without their superstar

Sent from my Pixel 8 using RealGM mobile app

[Scase]

An all NBA player hitting 30 years old. Not 32. Not 34. 30! Exchanged for an poo poo platter is a **** situation no matter how you slice it. It just doesn't happen often in this league, partly because most FO wouldnt let it get to that point.

What's the closest analogue to this, PG13? He's the same tier player as Siakam IMO, maybe a touch higher, but he had just signed a new contract IIRC and was only 1 year in.

Comparatively, he netted OKC : Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps. Granted he came in second in MVP voting the season prior, but I can't help but think that gap in returns was a touch wider than it should have been

George was 28, 3rd in MVP voting, 3rd in DPOY voting and on the all D 1st team, he had 3 years left on his contract and trading for him is what Kawhi was demanding in order to sign with a team. Pascal was not on an all NBA team last season and probably won't be this year, and wasn't an all star this year, his contract was expiring, and he had already shot down trades to other teams in the summer with public comments about testing free agency and apparently was colluding behind the scenes with Halliburton to get to Indiana. That's a pretty large gap in circumstances.

Also just beyond that there seems to be a lot of reluctance from teams to trade big packages of picks anymore. That might change again but teams seem pretty gunshy now that the Suns are failing pretty spectacularly.

Oh for sure, it's not a 1:1 by any stretch, I was just trying to think who else is considered a 2a type of player and what they've gone for in the past, PG is the only one I could think of off the top of my head.

As for the latter part regarding Siakams accolades and time left on his contract, well, that's Masais fault, and a direct reason why we didn't get more in a return. Waited too long, and traded him when his most recent accolade was an AS selection the year prior, and only had months left on his contract, that's nobodies fault but his own.

Could we have gotten what PG returned, never in a million years. Could we have gotten more, very likely. I think this trade looks a LOT different, had we been able to pry away even a single prospect. And for the guy who pulled off trades like the kawhi/bargs/etc trades, this is a massive failure.

[OakleyDokely]

The issue was never that Siakam wasn't a really good player and the expectations should never have been that by trading him you'd likely get a player as good back for him. Most of the time, when you trade away the best player in the deal, you aren't getting a player back that is his equal unless you fluke out with a draft pick.

This deal was about about not paying him 50 mill a year for his 30-35 years when you aren't a contender and it's better to reset with cheaper, younger, more flexible assets.

[OakleyDokely]

By the way the, Grange is an idiot. He hated bringing in the 27 year old Poeltl, now he's lamenting the fact that they traded away a 30 year old Siakam looking for max. Even if the Raps got back a top 10 pick in the draft for Siakam, they still likely wouldn't have gotten a player as good as Siakam. That's what happens when you trade away proven vets for unproven prospects/picks. Siakam was a top 2-3 player from his draft class so even if the Raps got top dollar for him, they'd be hard pressed to replace him. That's what makes rebuilding hard. You need to hit on lower percentage assets when you gave away proven ones.

[Wasp]

There is something that annoy me with pundit that blast the Siakam trade in the past few days because Siakam is having very good playoffs so far .

They complete forget that the reason the Raptors trade Siakam was to reset timeline around Scottie Barnes and avoid to max long term a borderline max player . The fear with Siakam was staying a “mid team”, play-in / first round exit ceiling with limited ways to improve the team . Also let’s face it the relation was not good since Raptors refuse to considers super max him should he become eligible.

The goal of the trade and we can’t disagree with that route, was never to get back a player as good as Siakam . In fact , that would be a home run if that was the case . Masai would be a genie .

Now in term of the return we got , we can debate about the timing of the trade and if moving him sooner would have fetch a better return . Maybe it is maybe not . Let’s assume it is. Still , unlikely we get a player as good as Siakam .

Obviously a pundit can disagree with the direction we took . That pundit may feel that we should have kept Siakam and that we were close to being a contender with Barnes, RJ, Quick, Jakob and Gradey.

But comparing any player we get from the Siakam trade to Siakam is pointless IMO. Of course Siakam will be better . If not, this means Siakam is falling off a cliff.

Siakam is a very good player . In the 20 to 40 range in the NBA depending of the metric/ranking or how much you value that type of player. Can we please not be surprise each time he is having a good game ?

At the end of the day, what he do with Indiana is irrelevant to how this move will play out for the Raptors long term . And moving Siakam will have a bigger impact that the return itself .



[x]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=bbHklJ8GtSbhRHldSOdiIA[/x]

My issue with the Siakam trade is that I think that the argument that Siakam doesn't fit the Scottie timeline is simply not true. We definitely couldn't have afforded to keep both OG and Siakam, but we could have easily kept one of them. The OG trade makes sense because we got a great return. In the case of the Siakam trade, my thinking was that it would only make sense to move him if we got a great return. Otherwise, why not re-sign him and deal with any salary issues later? Gone are the days of untradeable contracts in the NBA. There is always one team that thinks they're one piece away and any contract is moveable these days.

There is value to having an NBA champion, team legend, and proven playoff performer be your #1b player to your #1a young star. We are not a FA destination so cap space is far less useful to us than it is for big market US teams. Further, we didn't even have full control of our own FRP this year, so the "it was for the tank" argument also isn't a good one.

I get wanting to move fully into the Scottie era, but I think we would've gotten more overall value from a re-signed Siakam playing for us for another year or two and then trading him later on than we did from the trade we made.

[ArthurVandelay]

There is something that annoy me with pundit that blast the Siakam trade in the past few days because Siakam is having very good playoffs so far .

They complete forget that the reason the Raptors trade Siakam was to reset timeline around Scottie Barnes and avoid to max long term a borderline max player . The fear with Siakam was staying a “mid team”, play-in / first round exit ceiling with limited ways to improve the team . Also let’s face it the relation was not good since Raptors refuse to considers super max him should he become eligible.

The goal of the trade and we can’t disagree with that route, was never to get back a player as good as Siakam . In fact , that would be a home run if that was the case . Masai would be a genie .

Now in term of the return we got , we can debate about the timing of the trade and if moving him sooner would have fetch a better return . Maybe it is maybe not . Let’s assume it is. Still , unlikely we get a player as good as Siakam .

Obviously a pundit can disagree with the direction we took . That pundit may feel that we should have kept Siakam and that we were close to being a contender with Barnes, RJ, Quick, Jakob and Gradey.

But comparing any player we get from the Siakam trade to Siakam is pointless IMO. Of course Siakam will be better . If not, this means Siakam is falling off a cliff.

Siakam is a very good player . In the 20 to 40 range in the NBA depending of the metric/ranking or how much you value that type of player. Can we please not be surprise each time he is having a good game ?

At the end of the day, what he do with Indiana is irrelevant to how this move will play out for the Raptors long term . And moving Siakam will have a bigger impact that the return itself .



[x]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=bbHklJ8GtSbhRHldSOdiIA[/x]

Grange is a hack. No question about that. No sources necessary on that intel.

Signing Siakam to a 5 year max, which is what he wanted from Toronto, would have resulted in the same outcome as Beal's contract with the Wizards, Westbrook with OKC, Lillard in Portland, etc. etc.

We have 4 years of data to show where a Siakam led Raptors squad was heading: destination no where.

I'm glad he is having success in Indiana. I hope a win over Milwaukee encourages Indiana to sign him to a 5 year max this summer because there will likely be a 1 year window for them before they recognize they are stuck. Hopefully that coincides with a play in loss in 2026.

[ciueli]

Looking at Kelly Olynyk as one of pieces we got in return for Pascal is misleading, realistically we could have easily signed him in the offseason with cap space or the MLE, even then it's questionable whether signing a player who is entering his year 33 season and does nothing to address the team's defensive issues at the most important defensive position makes any sense at all.

Ochai is not a draft pick, he's a player who underperformed in his first two seasons relative to expectations based on where he was drafted and is owed more money than he's worth over the next two seasons. He was drafted too high and Utah jumped at the chance to dump the next two seasons of his contract on us in exchange for an actual first round draft pick, at present it looks like he won't be worth his qualifying offer (sub 50% True Shooting and 5th worst Box +/- in the league among minute qualifiers this season), he's already 24 and it's hard to argue he has undiscovered upside at this point.

[Scase]

By the way the, Grange is an idiot. He hated bringing in the 27 year old Poeltl, now he's lamenting the fact that they traded away a 30 year old Siakam looking for max. Even if the Raps got back a top 10 pick in the draft for Siakam, they still likely wouldn't have gotten a player as good as Siakam. That's what happens when you trade away proven vets for unproven prospects/picks. Siakam was a top 2-3 player from his draft class so even if the Raps got top dollar for him, they'd be hard pressed to replace him. That's what makes rebuilding hard. You need to hit on lower percentage assets when you gave away proven ones.

How does this make him an idiot, he was right. The Jak trade was a bad trade, practically everyone aside from a select few agrees on that.

It was an overpay. We immediately went into a rebuild without our pick, and trading for him resulted in a net negative. You can **** on Grange for a fair amount of things, the Jak trade, is not one of them.

[agkagk]

What's the closest analogue to this, PG13? He's the same tier player as Siakam IMO, maybe a touch higher, but he had just signed a new contract IIRC and was only 1 year in.

Comparatively, he netted OKC : Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps. Granted he came in second in MVP voting the season prior, but I can't help but think that gap in returns was a touch wider than it should have been

George was 28, 3rd in MVP voting, 3rd in DPOY voting and on the all D 1st team, he had 3 years left on his contract and trading for him is what Kawhi was demanding in order to sign with a team. Pascal was not on an all NBA team last season and probably won't be this year, and wasn't an all star this year, his contract was expiring, and he had already shot down trades to other teams in the summer with public comments about testing free agency and apparently was colluding behind the scenes with Halliburton to get to Indiana. That's a pretty large gap in circumstances.

Also just beyond that there seems to be a lot of reluctance from teams to trade big packages of picks anymore. That might change again but teams seem pretty gunshy now that the Suns are failing pretty spectacularly.

Yes, the PG deal cannot ignore the fact that the leverage OKC had was Kawhi wanting LAC to trade for PG, in order for Kawhi to sign, so the deal was essentially all of that (Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps) for PG & Kawhi.

Wouldn't be surprised if Masai actually helped OKC fleece LAC by playing along like they might make a trade to acquire PG to satisfy Kawhi (OKC was floating trade scenarios with Raps to move PG here) because I'm sure Masai ultimately knew Kawhi wanted to go back to LA, and regardless of whatever deal he made, was not going to sign long-term with the Raps. But by Masai playing along forced LAC to toss more in the deal, under a tight deadline (FA signing period for Kawhi).

This.

Masai does mutual destruction well.

Lowry and fred signed poison pill contracts. Clips paid through the nose for paul.

[NinjaBro]

The issue was never that Siakam wasn't a really good player and the expectations should never have been that by trading him you'd likely get a player as good back for him. Most of the time, when you trade away the best player in the deal, you aren't getting a player back that is his equal unless you fluke out with a draft pick.

This deal about about not paying him 50 mill a year for his 30-35 years when you aren't a contender and it's better to reset with cheaper, younger, more flexible assets.

I'm ok with this but what I'm pissed about is that our front office had all this time to make a decision and sat on their asses. The way they treated Siakam, a multi time all NBA and champion was deplorable. Bobby Webster who is supposed to be this cap genius had to know this was coming. They waited until they had no leverage and Siakam's value was at its lowest. I'm stunned we got the return for OG that we did. Siakam is a significantly better player than OG, should've gotten way more.

Masai and Bobby's track record of decisions post championship is a fireable offense. Their saving grace was nailing the Scottie pick.

We need to trade Siakam for AJ Griffen before it's too late! - PhilBlackson

[OakleyDokely]

By the way the, Grange is an idiot. He hated bringing in the 27 year old Poeltl, now he's lamenting the fact that they traded away a 30 year old Siakam looking for max. Even if the Raps got back a top 10 pick in the draft for Siakam, they still likely wouldn't have gotten a player as good as Siakam. That's what happens when you trade away proven vets for unproven prospects/picks. Siakam was a top 2-3 player from his draft class so even if the Raps got top dollar for him, they'd be hard pressed to replace him. That's what makes rebuilding hard. You need to hit on lower percentage assets when you gave away proven ones.

How does this make him an idiot, he was right. The Jak trade was a bad trade, practically everyone aside from a select few agrees on that.

It was an overpay. We immediately went into a rebuild without our pick, and trading for him resulted in a net negative. You can **** on Grange for a fair amount of things, the Jak trade, is not one of them.

I'm not saying he's wrong about the Poeltl, I'm saying he's being ridiculous when he says the Raps aren't likely to replace Siakam once they dealt him. No **** Grange. Siakam was one of the best players from a pretty strong draft and he might end up better than everyone in this current draft. When you trade away great players, it's hard to replace him, but that's what rebuilding teams do when they're faced with paying max to a 30 year old.

[Scase]

By the way the, Grange is an idiot. He hated bringing in the 27 year old Poeltl, now he's lamenting the fact that they traded away a 30 year old Siakam looking for max. Even if the Raps got back a top 10 pick in the draft for Siakam, they still likely wouldn't have gotten a player as good as Siakam. That's what happens when you trade away proven vets for unproven prospects/picks. Siakam was a top 2-3 player from his draft class so even if the Raps got top dollar for him, they'd be hard pressed to replace him. That's what makes rebuilding hard. You need to hit on lower percentage assets when you gave away proven ones.

How does this make him an idiot, he was right. The Jak trade was a bad trade, practically everyone aside from a select few agrees on that.

It was an overpay. We immediately went into a rebuild without our pick, and trading for him resulted in a net negative. You can **** on Grange for a fair amount of things, the Jak trade, is not one of them.

I'm not saying he's wrong about the Poeltl, I'm saying he's being ridiculous when he says the Raps aren't likely to replace Siakam once they dealt him. No **** Grange. Siakam was one of the best players from a pretty strong draft and he might end up better than everyone in this current draft. When you trade away great players, it's hard to replace him, but that's what rebuilding teams do when they're faced with paying max to a 30 year old.

I agree, I just thought it was odd to throw in the jak thing right after calling him stupid lol