OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[JB7]

If we're happy to win a round.... well, where's the blasted happiness?

I share the disappointment. I was on here in the Tampa series when they were up saying Dubas needs 2 rounds to save his job. Standards need to be higher.

Troubling sign #1, a guy with 3 games NHL experience was relied on to provide offense on a team with Stanley Cup intentions.
Troubling sign #2, Matthews/Marner close friend Tkatchuk takes aim at that rookie's head. No response. Sam Bennett "finishes the job." No response. Next game, no response. Luke Schenn with like two weeks experience as a Leaf on this team is out there punching all his best friends on the Lightening. Bennett continues to run at Leafs in game 3. No response. Leadership needs a shake-up.

Doesnt help when our best players are more interested in dipsey doodling around guys in their own zone instead of making the right hockey play and getting the puck down the ice. Wish Don Cherry was still on TV so I could hear him rip into this team.

I think this team might have killed him, if he was still on air having to watch and comment on them.

[fbalmeida]

I'm personally going to start blaming the Southern Ontarian talent pool. My reasoning is that there's really no one else left to blame.

Ballard was naturally and almost singlehandedly responsible to blame for the 1967-1990 interregnum.

From 1991-2003 the Fletcher (Gilmour) and Quinn (Sundin) era delivered competitive hockey, with the exception of a quick rebuild period in between. They preferred a hardnosed playing style and an ethos that the fans could happily identify with. Just a pinch of talent and an overload of heart and toughness, featuring a half-dozen players whose bodies were literally held together by nuts, bolts, and screws, but with all the heart in the world. We came close, but the blame would ultimately fall to some bad calls, or some slight tangential lack of speed, size, talent, or physical fitness to carry us across a specific series. Ultimately, four conference finals appearances in 12 seasons was an acceptable pace.

From 2005, post-lockout, to the present day, we've had an initial period of organizational confusion, followed by an unprecedented attempt at a long term rebuild centred on a highly talented and non-physical core. Not only has this strategy flown in the face of the conventional development strategies of habitual Stanley Cup contenders, it's also committed us to slotting half our cap space to a core of highly paid non-physical players who struggle to fit together for playoff-style hockey.

We can suspect that another playoff disaster will impel this front office, or the front office that succeeds Dubas, to come in and presumably revert to attempt to build a young, big, fast, and tough physical core around one or two gifted players. But we've tried that under Fletcher. More recently, it was also Burke's idea. It didn't get us there.

So this is the crux of the problem. The franchise has attempted going down several different avenues in several decades. Nothing has worked. The only avenue left, that I can think of at least, is banking on the franchise's misery. The emergence of a generation of hometown players that have spontaneously decided that it's time to put an end, to what is by now, an international disgrace: the Toronto Maple Leafs' 55 year cup drought.

Ending this disgrace has to start being thought of and considered as the highest professional achievement of every single young Leafs-cheering hockey-inclined athlete growing up in the GTA and beyond. Ultimately, it's a societal problem, in which every Leafs fan that interacts with the NHL development pipeline's grassroots level, from every minor league hockey coach to the local recreation centre's janitor, should instruct kids, from the very first moment they lace up their first pair of skates, that their ultimate goal is to win a Stanley Cup for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

So, yes, I think our fanbase should begin this process, violently, by pointing the finger at every single homegrown Leaf fan playing in the NHL who haven't made themselves available at first chance to play for the Leafs, no matter the marginal cost to their paychecks. Of course this could really only begin by blowing up our current overpriced core.

Enough is enough.

nah. that's already happening and it's not working. marner is a mental mess exactly because of that unhealthy pressure and toxicity in this market. no one wants to deal with boomer leaf fans angst.

pushing like 60 years of baggage onto a bunch of guys who weren't born the last time the leafs played in the 3rd round isn't healthy.

Marner is messed up, likely because of his borderline psychopathic dad and the pressure he's applied to him in getting him to become an NHL star. If he had been instead, cultured to help the Leafs win a cup, he wouldn't have EVER held out for contract negotiations.

A pressure-based approach is what we have now. What I'm suggesting is a loyalty approach, akin to what top European football (soccer) clubs deploy in their youth academies.

[Raps in 4]

Top post on the Leafs subreddit yesterday, lol: https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/13ctua7/leafs_fans_on_reddit_are_weird/

This is why this team will never win. Leafs fans are simply content with mediocrity. It makes it easy on the players and management. You don't need to aim very high. A first round series win is like a championship to our fans.

Toronto sports fans in general have a loser's mentality. If you visit the Jays/Raptors subreddits during bad seasons/meltdowns, everyone is positive (this place is an exception, we're a lot more invested in the team than the casual fans on Reddit). Contrast that with New York, Boston, or Philly subreddits where even though their teams have enjoyed infinitely more success than ours, their fans are up in arms at the first signs of struggle from their teams.

[Mak]

Top post on the Leafs subreddit yesterday, lol: https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/13ctua7/leafs_fans_on_reddit_are_weird/

This is why this team will never win. Leafs fans are simply content with mediocrity. It makes it easy on the players and management. You don't need to aim very high. A first round series win is like a championship to our fans.

Toronto sports fans in general have a loser's mentality. If you visit the Jays/Raptors subreddits during bad seasons/meltdowns, everyone is positive (this place is an exception, we're a lot more invested in the team than the casual fans on Reddit). Contrast that with New York, Boston, or Philly subreddits where even though their teams have enjoyed infinitely more success than ours, their fans are up in arms at the first signs of struggle from their teams.

Loser mentality does explains the love for tanking. At least here.

[nikster]

Top post on the Leafs subreddit yesterday, lol: https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/13ctua7/leafs_fans_on_reddit_are_weird/

This is why this team will never win. Leafs fans are simply content with mediocrity. It makes it easy on the players and management. You don't need to aim very high. A first round series win is like a championship to our fans.

Toronto sports fans in general have a loser's mentality. If you visit the Jays/Raptors subreddits during bad seasons/meltdowns, everyone is positive (this place is an exception, we're a lot more invested in the team than the casual fans on Reddit). Contrast that with New York, Boston, or Philly subreddits where even though their teams have enjoyed infinitely more success than ours, their fans are up in arms at the first signs of struggle from their teams.

Knicks have been **** for 20 years and their fans were ecstatic about making it out of the first round

[OakleyDokely]

Start rant...

This championship or bust mentality is the dumbest thing thats evolved in sports.

These leagues now have 30+ teams. If everything was equal and every team took turns winning a title, your team would win a championship once every 30 or so years.

If the expectation is title or bust, sports really isn't for you. Most years you aren't going to win or even come close. In the end, sports is about entertainment and you're either entertained or you're not. If you aren't entertained, find something else to occupy your time.

End rant...

[Raps in 4]

Start rant...

This championship or bust mentality is the dumbest thing thats evolved in sports.

These leagues now have 30+ teams. If everything was equal and every team took turns winning a title, your team would win a championship once every 30 or so years.

If the expectation is title or bust, sports really isn't for you. Most years you aren't going to win or even come close. In the end, sports is about entertainment and you're either entertained or you're not. If you aren't entertained, find something else to occupy your time.

End rant...

It's not "title or bust". I want to cheer for a team that is building towards a title. As long as they're making the right moves and the team is contending, or moving towards contention, I'm happy.

[OakleyDokely]

Start rant...

This championship or bust mentality is the dumbest thing thats evolved in sports.

These leagues now have 30+ teams. If everything was equal and every team took turns winning a title, your team would win a championship once every 30 or so years.

If the expectation is title or bust, sports really isn't for you. Most years you aren't going to win or even come close. In the end, sports is about entertainment and you're either entertained or you're not. If you aren't entertained, find something else to occupy your time.

End rant...

It's not "title or bust". I want to cheer for a team that is building towards a title. As long as they're making the right moves and the team is contending, or moving towards contention, I'm happy.

But what does 'building towards" a title even mean? Most people thought the Raps were a stagnant team prior to the Kawhi trade, but then sports happened. The Leafs best players are all in their mid 20, that's not building towards a title?

You see fans here, on this board, describing 2nd round / 3rd round appearances as meaningless because "they had no chance to win a title anyways". In a 30 team league, just getting to the final 4 or final 8 is an accomplishment but it's dismissed as a failure quite often.

[tecumseh18]

Start rant...

This championship or bust mentality is the dumbest thing thats evolved in sports.

These leagues now have 30+ teams. If everything was equal and every team took turns winning a title, your team would win a championship once every 30 or so years.

If the expectation is title or bust, sports really isn't for you. Most years you aren't going to win or even come close. In the end, sports is about entertainment and you're either entertained or you're not. If you aren't entertained, find something else to occupy your time.

End rant...

It's not "title or bust". I want to cheer for a team that is building towards a title. As long as they're making the right moves and the team is contending, or moving towards contention, I'm happy.

But what does 'building towards" a title even mean? Most people thought the Raps were a stagnant team prior to the Kawhi trade, but then sports happened. The Leafs best players are all in their mid 20, that's not building towards a title?

You see fans here, on this board, describing 2nd round / 3rd round appearances as meaningless because "they had no chance to win a title anyways". In a 30 team league, just getting to the final 4 or final 8 is an accomplishment but it's dismissed as a failure quite often.

We love watching (meaningful) basketball, and but hate watching our team lose, especially if there's an realistic hope of winning it all. The 2019 Raptors were built to win, and there's no way I would have been "happy" if they lost. I couldn't stand to watch the end of Game 3 against the Bucks, after Lowry fouled out. All that effort, all that hope from the time of the Kawhi trade, to end in humiliation. So I didn't (watch).

This is a big weakness in the sports fan formula. If your team is bad, you lose interest. If your team is good, it's pure torture to watch. Basketball especially is a game where mistakes are made all the time. I'm constantly screaming at the TV screen at various Raptors players. (For some reason, I'm not so bad watching game live in the arena). Someone on the Jays board made this same point during their 2015 run. So excruciatingly painful!

The only time it's "fun" is either when your team is on a Cinderella run with no expectation of winning it all (like Florida right now), or if your team was knocked out early and you can enjoy the big stars on other teams doing their thing in the second round, conference finals, or Finals. I was reminded of this in the 2021 playoffs, after the Raps tanked in Tampa. Basketball is so easy to enjoy when I don't have a dog in the fight. Trae messing with the Knicks fans, Durant's toe on the line, Simmons refusing the dunk, Giannis conquering his FT shooting demons, Chris Paul losing again - it was great to watch!

[Brinbe]

Start rant...

This championship or bust mentality is the dumbest thing thats evolved in sports.

These leagues now have 30+ teams. If everything was equal and every team took turns winning a title, your team would win a championship once every 30 or so years.

If the expectation is title or bust, sports really isn't for you. Most years you aren't going to win or even come close. In the end, sports is about entertainment and you're either entertained or you're not. If you aren't entertained, find something else to occupy your time.

End rant...

It's not "title or bust". I want to cheer for a team that is building towards a title. As long as they're making the right moves and the team is contending, or moving towards contention, I'm happy.

But what does 'building towards" a title even mean? Most people thought the Raps were a stagnant team prior to the Kawhi trade, but then sports happened. The Leafs best players are all in their mid 20, that's not building towards a title?

You see fans here, on this board, describing 2nd round / 3rd round appearances as meaningless because "they had no chance to win a title anyways". In a 30 team league, just getting to the final 4 or final 8 is an accomplishment but it's dismissed as a failure quite often.

Nah. Do you follow the leafs? It's not nearly the same. They've failed for seven years now with barely any progress.

And it's the way they've lost that matters. Context matters. You jumping in here with all this crap completely ignores why people are pissed. You must not be a leafs fan and if you're not you wouldn't get it.

If your stars no-show yet again what do you expect fans to do? Just sit there and be thankful to be swept in the 2nd round when the expectations are (rightfully) higher?

Like do you even follow hockey? Do you know how they lost to Columbus or Montreal? There's history here that you completely ignore. This isn't year one or two of this and we're just happy to be here.

If anything people have extended TOO MUCH grace and patience to this team and this core. The complete of what you're claiming. It's an insult.

[OakleyDokely]

It's not "title or bust". I want to cheer for a team that is building towards a title. As long as they're making the right moves and the team is contending, or moving towards contention, I'm happy.

But what does 'building towards" a title even mean? Most people thought the Raps were a stagnant team prior to the Kawhi trade, but then sports happened. The Leafs best players are all in their mid 20, that's not building towards a title?

You see fans here, on this board, describing 2nd round / 3rd round appearances as meaningless because "they had no chance to win a title anyways". In a 30 team league, just getting to the final 4 or final 8 is an accomplishment but it's dismissed as a failure quite often.

Nah. Do you follow the leafs? It's not nearly the same. They've failed for seven years now with barely any progress.

And it's the way they've lost that matters. Context matters. You jumping in here with all this crap ignores why people are pissed. You must not be a leafs fan

I mean, you're allowed to be pissed, that's part of sports. Wasn't really my point though.

[Brinbe]

But what does 'building towards" a title even mean? Most people thought the Raps were a stagnant team prior to the Kawhi trade, but then sports happened. The Leafs best players are all in their mid 20, that's not building towards a title?

You see fans here, on this board, describing 2nd round / 3rd round appearances as meaningless because "they had no chance to win a title anyways". In a 30 team league, just getting to the final 4 or final 8 is an accomplishment but it's dismissed as a failure quite often.

Nah. Do you follow the leafs? It's not nearly the same. They've failed for seven years now with barely any progress.

And it's the way they've lost that matters. Context matters. You jumping in here with all this crap ignores why people are pissed. You must not be a leafs fan

I mean, you're allowed to be pissed, that's part of sports. Wasn't really my point though.

Your point is dumb. People aren't mad because they aren't winning cups.

People are pissed because the same cast of players are no-showing in big games again and it's seven years of this and they have a 2nd round exit as their best result.

Like I said, context matters.

Would people be mad regardless? Yes, perhaps. But this type of defeat is particularly egregious. If you're not a leafs fan why even comment and attempt to seem like you know what you're talking about?

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

This is a pretty accurate summation of things from people who watch every game. They know.

[OakleyDokely]

Nah. Do you follow the leafs? It's not nearly the same. They've failed for seven years now with barely any progress.

And it's the way they've lost that matters. Context matters. You jumping in here with all this crap ignores why people are pissed. You must not be a leafs fan

I mean, you're allowed to be pissed, that's part of sports. Wasn't really my point though.

Your point is dumb. People aren't mad because they aren't winning cups.

People are pissed because the same cast of players are no-showing in big games again and it's seven years of this and they have a 2nd round exit as their best result.

Like I said, context matters.

Would people be mad regardless? Yes, perhaps. But this type of defeat is particularly egregious. If you're not a leafs fan why even comment and attempt to seem like you know what you're talking about?

#1, my point wasn't specifically about the leafs
#2, based on the play, the Leafs could easily be up 2-1 instead of 0-3. That's the randomness / luck of sports sometimes.

[Tha Cynic]

Start rant...

This championship or bust mentality is the dumbest thing thats evolved in sports.

These leagues now have 30+ teams. If everything was equal and every team took turns winning a title, your team would win a championship once every 30 or so years.

If the expectation is title or bust, sports really isn't for you. Most years you aren't going to win or even come close. In the end, sports is about entertainment and you're either entertained or you're not. If you aren't entertained, find something else to occupy your time.

End rant...

This is true.

But at the same time trusting the same core for 7 years and never changing them when the failure had been the same issue every year is very concerning.

[OakleyDokely]

Start rant...

This championship or bust mentality is the dumbest thing thats evolved in sports.

These leagues now have 30+ teams. If everything was equal and every team took turns winning a title, your team would win a championship once every 30 or so years.

If the expectation is title or bust, sports really isn't for you. Most years you aren't going to win or even come close. In the end, sports is about entertainment and you're either entertained or you're not. If you aren't entertained, find something else to occupy your time.

End rant...

This is true.

But at the same time trusting the same core for 7 years and never changing them when the failure had been the same issue every year is very concerning.

I don't think anyone should be untouchable. If you can find deals to improve the team, you do it. But I don't think change for the sake of change will do much good.

[Brinbe]

I mean, you're allowed to be pissed, that's part of sports. Wasn't really my point though.

Your point is dumb. People aren't mad because they aren't winning cups.

People are pissed because the same cast of players are no-showing in big games again and it's seven years of this and they have a 2nd round exit as their best result.

Like I said, context matters.

Would people be mad regardless? Yes, perhaps. But this type of defeat is particularly egregious. If you're not a leafs fan why even comment and attempt to seem like you know what you're talking about?

#1, my point wasn't specifically about the leafs
#2, based on the play, the Leafs could easily be up 2-1 instead of 0-3. That's the randomness / luck of sports sometimes.

That's also my point, every situation and playoff run is built differently.

Why did the Bucks fire coach Bud then? Shouldn't Milwaukee just be happy they made it and yknow, sht happens sometimes? Come on, man.

And you can't just use point 2 without ignoring the previous six years of leafs history which is why people are reacting like this.

Hell, this is 60 years of angst for some people at this point.

[OakleyDokely]

Your point is dumb. People aren't mad because they aren't winning cups.

People are pissed because the same cast of players are no-showing in big games again and it's seven years of this and they have a 2nd round exit as their best result.

Like I said, context matters.

Would people be mad regardless? Yes, perhaps. But this type of defeat is particularly egregious. If you're not a leafs fan why even comment and attempt to seem like you know what you're talking about?

#1, my point wasn't specifically about the leafs
#2, based on the play, the Leafs could easily be up 2-1 instead of 0-3. That's the randomness / luck of sports sometimes.

That's also my point, every situation and playoff run is built differently.

Why did the Bucks fire coach Bud then? Shouldn't Milwaukee just be happy they made it and yknow, sht happens sometimes? Come on, man.

And you can't just use point 2 without ignoring the previous six years of leafs history which is why people are reacting like this.

Hell, this is 60 years of angst for some people at this point.

I always think you should be making improvements where you can. If the Bucks think they can improve on Bud, do it. If the Raps think they can improve on Nurse, do it. If the Leafs think they can improve on Matthews/Marner do it.

[Lord_Zedd]

Start rant...

This championship or bust mentality is the dumbest thing thats evolved in sports.

These leagues now have 30+ teams. If everything was equal and every team took turns winning a title, your team would win a championship once every 30 or so years.

If the expectation is title or bust, sports really isn't for you. Most years you aren't going to win or even come close. In the end, sports is about entertainment and you're either entertained or you're not. If you aren't entertained, find something else to occupy your time.

End rant...

You're not wrong, but I don't think this applies here with these Leafs. I don't think you'll see many people complain this badly if the Leafs had the same playoff success as the San Jose Sharks in their glory years. And San Jose had their fair share of chokes including being reverse swept.

The Leafs kept flaming out in the first round and you can almost write a script on how it'll play out (especially against Boston). Like watching Groundhog Day the movie without the comedy.

I used to have a dog in this fight long time ago, but I don't follow the Leafs as much anymore. Something has got to give though. Otherwise the new Leafs meme is not winning a game in round 2 in 20 years lol

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's frustrating because the Leafs core was built through tanking. Same thing the 76ers are going through. The pain comes from the promise of greatness that you paid for by watching terrible hockey. Great players win titles, so it could just be about waiting it out. But, there's a hard cap, very few draft picks left for the next 3 seasons, and some players have negative trade value (Tavares) and they probably need to shake up some key components. Fans should be frustrated. They tanked, killed their cap, and then gave up their future for round 2. The Seattle Kraken are doing better in the 2nd round in their second season as an NHL team. Hammer better come down.

[fbalmeida]

In a nutshell, the main problem with this core is that they are, for now at least, a questionable fit for playoff hockey, while also (and this is the real killer) taking up all that cap space, making the GM's job in offsetting their on-ice stylistic shortcomings all the more difficult.

Dubas' reluctance in parting ways with one of the big-4, earlier, has arguably compounded the problem. Particularly now that Tavares' has lost a step.