The Gradey Dick Thread Part 3

[ConSarnit]

Personally I would start Brown for the sake of tanking. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t give Gradey the lion's share of minutes but yeah I’m sorry but idc if the starting lineup struggles to shoot & therefore lose. Let Brown start for the most part until he’s traded. He’s not likely to set the world on fire and create a huge trade market for himself but nonetheless be regarded a “starter” is likely to help his value more than hurt it.

I don’t worry about these guys “carrying” it to next season because then we can start pursuing the Cam Johnsons, THTs etc of the league and start really filling out the roster but what’s going to change the trajectory of this team even more than Gradey’s development is finding that running mate for Scottie. One that’s close to his level of talent (or better), that’s what will change everything moving forward.

Again we can still give Gradey more minutes than BB, like our “Manu” or something (again until BB is traded) but at least it should help prevent us from being a Play In team and improve our odds in the draft.

The drop from Bruce to Gradey, if there is any is small. Bruce is a vet, so it could be argued he's better than Gradey.

The only thing that's really going to change our standings much is playing Chomche a lot vs playing Poetl.

I’m not so sure. I think starting Brown has the potential to crater the offense. Where is the shooting coming from? The defense is probably decent but the starters offense with Brown could be one of the worst in the league. We need Dick’s shooting far more than we what Brown provides.

[JB7]

3pt shot for sure, I'd rather have Gradey shooting it. But shots overall, Scottie should be taking the lions share. Unless Scottie is shooting lights out, I want to see him getting a legit mid range shot, if he can manage that, then he should be a top option.

I see no reason he should ever be a first option for a 3 though.

Scottie seems to want to emulate Magic. So ball dominant, but not a ball dominant scorer.

I could see a situation where Scottie is the 4th leading scorer, but all 4 are averaging in the 18-24pt range.

Scottie is allowed to only average 20 once he starts putting up 13 ast and 8 reb lol. 20/7/7 aint gonna cut it.

Ok, maybe not the 4th leading scorer, but rather the 3rd leading scorer (after RJ & IQ). Are we forgetting the Magic Lakers?

Magic averaged under 20pts a game for his career, and the 4 players who played the most games with Magic averaged:
- Cooper (935 games) 9pts per game
- Kareem (842 games) 20pts per game
- Worthy (794 games) 19pts per game
- Scott (710 games) 16 pts per game

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Magic-Johnson/Teammates/4618

[Scase]

Scottie seems to want to emulate Magic. So ball dominant, but not a ball dominant scorer.

I could see a situation where Scottie is the 4th leading scorer, but all 4 are averaging in the 18-24pt range.

Scottie is allowed to only average 20 once he starts putting up 13 ast and 8 reb lol. 20/7/7 aint gonna cut it.

Ok, maybe not the 4th leading scorer, but rather the 3rd leading scorer (after RJ & IQ). Are we forgetting the Magic Lakers?

Magic averaged under 20pts a game for his career, and the 4 players who played the most games with Magic averaged:
- Cooper (935 games) 9pts per game
- Kareem (842 games) 20pts per game
- Worthy (794 games) 19pts per game
- Scott (710 games) 16 pts per game

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Magic-Johnson/Teammates/4618

For sure, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that Magic balanced it out with a metric **** ton of assists and rebounds. From the age of 23-31 he averaged 20/12/7, that's what I mean by if he only puts up 20ppg but also throws up like 13apg and 8reb I don't care if he's 3rd or 4th on the pecking order for FGA.

Also ignoring that last season at age 36, Magic averaged 19.7, fair to say that was 20ppg

[JB7]

Scottie is allowed to only average 20 once he starts putting up 13 ast and 8 reb lol. 20/7/7 aint gonna cut it.

Ok, maybe not the 4th leading scorer, but rather the 3rd leading scorer (after RJ & IQ). Are we forgetting the Magic Lakers?

Magic averaged under 20pts a game for his career, and the 4 players who played the most games with Magic averaged:
- Cooper (935 games) 9pts per game
- Kareem (842 games) 20pts per game
- Worthy (794 games) 19pts per game
- Scott (710 games) 16 pts per game

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Magic-Johnson/Teammates/4618

For sure, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that Magic balanced it out with a metric **** ton of assists and rebounds. From the age of 23-31 he averaged 20/12/7, that's what I mean by if he only puts up 20ppg but also throws up like 13apg and 8reb I don't care if he's 3rd or 4th on the pecking order for FGA.

Also ignoring that last season at age 36, Magic averaged 19.7, fair to say that was 20ppg

But in the championship seasons, when Kareem was around, Magic averaged closer to 18pts per game.

And if the ball moves a lot on this Raps team, Barnes might have a lot of hockey assists

[Scase]

Ok, maybe not the 4th leading scorer, but rather the 3rd leading scorer (after RJ & IQ). Are we forgetting the Magic Lakers?

Magic averaged under 20pts a game for his career, and the 4 players who played the most games with Magic averaged:
- Cooper (935 games) 9pts per game
- Kareem (842 games) 20pts per game
- Worthy (794 games) 19pts per game
- Scott (710 games) 16 pts per game

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Magic-Johnson/Teammates/4618

For sure, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that Magic balanced it out with a metric **** ton of assists and rebounds. From the age of 23-31 he averaged 20/12/7, that's what I mean by if he only puts up 20ppg but also throws up like 13apg and 8reb I don't care if he's 3rd or 4th on the pecking order for FGA.

Also ignoring that last season at age 36, Magic averaged 19.7, fair to say that was 20ppg

But in the championship seasons, when Kareem was around, Magic averaged closer to 18pts per game.

And if the ball moves a lot on this Raps team, Barnes might have a lot of hockey assists

Yeah, all we need to do is get Kareem on the team

[Indeed]

Personally I would start Brown for the sake of tanking. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t give Gradey the lion's share of minutes but yeah I’m sorry but idc if the starting lineup struggles to shoot & therefore lose. Let Brown start for the most part until he’s traded. He’s not likely to set the world on fire and create a huge trade market for himself but nonetheless be regarded a “starter” is likely to help his value more than hurt it.

I don’t worry about these guys “carrying” it to next season because then we can start pursuing the Cam Johnsons, THTs etc of the league and start really filling out the roster but what’s going to change the trajectory of this team even more than Gradey’s development is finding that running mate for Scottie. One that’s close to his level of talent (or better), that’s what will change everything moving forward.

Again we can still give Gradey more minutes than BB, like our “Manu” or something (again until BB is traded) but at least it should help prevent us from being a Play In team and improve our odds in the draft.

The drop from Bruce to Gradey, if there is any is small. Bruce is a vet, so it could be argued he's better than Gradey.

The only thing that's really going to change our standings much is playing Chomche a lot vs playing Poetl.

I’m not so sure. I think starting Brown has the potential to crater the offense. Where is the shooting coming from? The defense is probably decent but the starters offense with Brown could be one of the worst in the league. We need Dick’s shooting far more than we what Brown provides.

We need Dick for tanking for sure.
I don't see Dick having a better offense than Brown, but the defense isn't comparable.

[Grandia]

Has Dick grown an inch or two this year? Can anyone confirm that has hard evidence?

Demore this joke is made, deless I like it.

I still like it.

[TorontoBarneys]

If you don't start Gradey the bench is just pure ass next season. Our bench is already weak but you want at least a veteran or two headlining those support line-ups and Gradey won't do well with other rooks.

IQ/Dick/RJ/Scottie/Poeltl should be the starting 5 regardless of whether Gradey has "earned it".

[Scase]

The drop from Bruce to Gradey, if there is any is small. Bruce is a vet, so it could be argued he's better than Gradey.

The only thing that's really going to change our standings much is playing Chomche a lot vs playing Poetl.

I’m not so sure. I think starting Brown has the potential to crater the offense. Where is the shooting coming from? The defense is probably decent but the starters offense with Brown could be one of the worst in the league. We need Dick’s shooting far more than we what Brown provides.

We need Dick for tanking for sure.
I don't see Dick having a better offense than Brown, but the defense isn't comparable.

Gradey put up 8.5ppg on 42.5/36.5/86.3 splits, 54.6% TS% over the course of the season.
Brown put up 11ppg on 48/32/82 splits, on 55.7% TS% over the course of the season.

A 3lb rookie put up comparable offensive stats to a 6 year vet, despite having a horrendous start to the year.

If we want to be generous to Gradey and just consider his stats when he returned, the comparison becomes even better.

11ppg on 45/39/80 splits, 56.6% TS%. Which puts him at a slightly better offensive output as a 3lb rookie. It would require him to regress to his horrendous start, for BB to be a better offensive option.

[Basketball_Jones]

Gradey should start as the idea is to see the future around Barnes with shooting. Bruce is not the future. Also need to get him adjusted to these lineups and his conditioning up to handle the grind of an 82 season as a starter.

[Scase]

Gradey should start as the idea is to see the future around Barnes with shooting. Bruce is not the future. Also need to get him adjusted to these lineups and his conditioning up to handle the grind of an 82 season as a starter.

Yep, if this is going to be a developmental season as everyone wants to call it, there's no benefit throwing him on the bench with a bunch of players that likely won't be here long term/lower quality players and likely detrimental to his development.

[WuTang_CMB]

I don't see any scenario where Bruce would start over Gradey.
They clearly want to develop Gradey and getting him the most reps as possible especially this season will benefit him long term. Let him go through the ups and downs as a young starter in the league. The 3 point shooting and playing with IQ and Scottie will benefit him greatly. He's still in the stage where he needs to play off good players, he can't create for himself.

[Thaddy]

I don't see any scenario where Bruce would start over Gradey.
They clearly want to develop Gradey and getting him the most reps as possible especially this season will benefit him long term. Let him go through the ups and downs as a young starter in the league. The 3 point shooting and playing with IQ and Scottie will benefit him greatly. He's still in the stage where he needs to play off good players, he can't create for himself.

We would have the worst defensive back court in the NBA. Brown is miles ahead of Dick in that department. Then you would also eventually have to bench Gradey for a better talent after a terrible season. He should be coming off the bench until he can show a clear cut 2nd skill and passable POA defense.

[Scase]

I don't see any scenario where Bruce would start over Gradey.
They clearly want to develop Gradey and getting him the most reps as possible especially this season will benefit him long term. Let him go through the ups and downs as a young starter in the league. The 3 point shooting and playing with IQ and Scottie will benefit him greatly. He's still in the stage where he needs to play off good players, he can't create for himself.

We would have the worst defensive back court in the NBA. Brown is miles ahead of Dick in that department. Then you would also eventually have to bench Gradey for a better talent after a terrible season. He should be coming off the bench until he can show a clear cut 2nd skill and passable POA defense.

If you think this season is all about maximizing winning chances, you might have a bad time watching this year. the only reason I can see them starting BB, is some misguided attempt to try and fool another team into his value.

[WuTang_CMB]

I don't see any scenario where Bruce would start over Gradey.
They clearly want to develop Gradey and getting him the most reps as possible especially this season will benefit him long term. Let him go through the ups and downs as a young starter in the league. The 3 point shooting and playing with IQ and Scottie will benefit him greatly. He's still in the stage where he needs to play off good players, he can't create for himself.

We would have the worst defensive back court in the NBA. Brown is miles ahead of Dick in that department. Then you would also eventually have to bench Gradey for a better talent after a terrible season. He should be coming off the bench until he can show a clear cut 2nd skill and passable POA defense.

Gradey isn't a defender and needs to get up to speed but his 3's and gravity will be more valuable with the starters. We are already behind in 3 point shooting than the rest of the league. Starting Bruce doesn't serve any purpose at this stage of our rebuild, even if he is a better defender

[ConSarnit]

The drop from Bruce to Gradey, if there is any is small. Bruce is a vet, so it could be argued he's better than Gradey.

The only thing that's really going to change our standings much is playing Chomche a lot vs playing Poetl.

I’m not so sure. I think starting Brown has the potential to crater the offense. Where is the shooting coming from? The defense is probably decent but the starters offense with Brown could be one of the worst in the league. We need Dick’s shooting far more than we what Brown provides.

We need Dick for tanking for sure.
I don't see Dick having a better offense than Brown, but the defense isn't comparable.

You can cover defensive holes easier than you can cover offense. If we roll out one of the lowest volume, lowest fg% 3pt shooting lineups (as we would with Brown) this team has no chance. The only teams that are able to overcome that type of shooting are elite defensive teams (we are not one). Every other team ends up in the bottom of the league. Brown is not close to being enough of a defensive floor raiser to compensate for that lack of offense. I don’t think Dick is THE answer but if we’re going to want to compete he’s going to have to be.

[Indeed]

I’m not so sure. I think starting Brown has the potential to crater the offense. Where is the shooting coming from? The defense is probably decent but the starters offense with Brown could be one of the worst in the league. We need Dick’s shooting far more than we what Brown provides.

We need Dick for tanking for sure.
I don't see Dick having a better offense than Brown, but the defense isn't comparable.

You can cover defensive holes easier than you can cover offense. If we roll out one of the lowest volume, lowest fg% 3pt shooting lineups (as we would with Brown) this team has no chance. The only teams that are able to overcome that type of shooting are elite defensive teams (we are not one). Every other team ends up in the bottom of the league. Brown is not close to being enough of a defensive floor raiser to compensate for that lack of offense. I don’t think Dick is THE answer but if we’re going to want to compete he’s going to have to be.

For a bottom of the league defense (last year), how certain of you adding a negative (worst plus minus last year on the team) to the starting line up would result in positive?

[PoundTown]

bc

I don't see any scenario where Bruce would start over Gradey.
They clearly want to develop Gradey and getting him the most reps as possible especially this season will benefit him long term. Let him go through the ups and downs as a young starter in the league. The 3 point shooting and playing with IQ and Scottie will benefit him greatly. He's still in the stage where he needs to play off good players, he can't create for himself.

We would have the worst defensive back court in the NBA. Brown is miles ahead of Dick in that department. Then you would also eventually have to bench Gradey for a better talent after a terrible season. He should be coming off the bench until he can show a clear cut 2nd skill and passable POA defense.

Gradey isn't a defender and needs to get up to speed but his 3's and gravity will be more valuable with the starters. We are already behind in 3 point shooting than the rest of the league. Starting Bruce doesn't serve any purpose at this stage of our rebuild, even if he is a better defender

I Look at it this way; darkos job and the players job is to go out and do everything they can, even if the management doesn’t want to win. If darko thinks his best chance of winning is starting brown, then he is going to do it, unless there is some sort of interference from front office. Dwayne Casey who we can probably agree was a decent development coach, played Alan Anderson to try to win quite a bit of minutes even though everyone knew he wasn’t in the long term plans. But he played hard, played both ends and played to win, even though his overconfidence would usually hurt us down the stretch of games.

If darko wants another coaching job after us, the best way to do that is to get the most of his roster and get as many wins as possible. If we’re down 37-25 after every first quarter and we can’t stop anyone with dick in the line up might be common sense to move brown there, no? Part of development is also being in games. We all want Flagg, but some of the lengths teams will go to tank or in washingtons case just how poorly they’ve been run is pathetic and hard to watch. Makes me happy to see these lottery odds flatten out because it needed to happen.

[ConSarnit]

We need Dick for tanking for sure.
I don't see Dick having a better offense than Brown, but the defense isn't comparable.

You can cover defensive holes easier than you can cover offense. If we roll out one of the lowest volume, lowest fg% 3pt shooting lineups (as we would with Brown) this team has no chance. The only teams that are able to overcome that type of shooting are elite defensive teams (we are not one). Every other team ends up in the bottom of the league. Brown is not close to being enough of a defensive floor raiser to compensate for that lack of offense. I don’t think Dick is THE answer but if we’re going to want to compete he’s going to have to be.

For a bottom of the league defense (last year), how certain of you adding a negative (worst plus minus last year on the team) to the starting line up would result in positive?

Well, I would hope that like most young players Dick has improved from terrible to just bad/below average. You’d also be pairing him with a Barnes and Poeltl front court who you would hope could float the starting defense to an average level. I also think his shooting threat is enough to compensate for his defense.

You can put Dick on the others teams worst guard/wing. Teams can hide bad defenders. It much harder to hide next to zero shooting. That’s a better outcome than making everyone’s else life difficult because the paint is walled off 100% of the time.

As I’ve said, we have no great solution. Dick starting could easily fail. I’d rather take a chance on some upside with Dick than what I’d consider a doomed offensive lineup with Brown in it.

I don’t have much confidence in either Dick or Brown being the solution but if I squint I could maybe see a world where starting Dick works. This is a lesser of two evils choice.

[WuTang_CMB]

:lol: bc

We would have the worst defensive back court in the NBA. Brown is miles ahead of Dick in that department. Then you would also eventually have to bench Gradey for a better talent after a terrible season. He should be coming off the bench until he can show a clear cut 2nd skill and passable POA defense.

Gradey isn't a defender and needs to get up to speed but his 3's and gravity will be more valuable with the starters. We are already behind in 3 point shooting than the rest of the league. Starting Bruce doesn't serve any purpose at this stage of our rebuild, even if he is a better defender

I Look at it this way; darkos job and the players job is to go out and do everything they can, even if the management doesn’t want to win. If darko thinks his best chance of winning is starting brown, then he is going to do it, unless there is some sort of interference from front office. Dwayne Casey who we can probably agree was a decent development coach, played Alan Anderson to try to win quite a bit of minutes even though everyone knew he wasn’t in the long term plans. But he played hard, played both ends and played to win, even though his overconfidence would usually hurt us down the stretch of games.

If darko wants another coaching job after us, the best way to do that is to get the most of his roster and get as many wins as possible. If we’re down 37-25 after every first quarter and we can’t stop anyone with dick in the line up might be common sense to move brown there, no? Part of development is also being in games. We all want Flagg, but some of the lengths teams will go to tank or in washingtons case just how poorly they’ve been run is pathetic and hard to watch. Makes me happy to see these lottery odds flatten out because it needed to happen.

Darko's job this year is to develop guys and create a system around Scottie with shooters. He isn't going to be Nick Nurse playing a 7 man rotation. He's going to play a bench because he needs to develop guys and that's who he is. Starting Bruce over Gradey especially when Gradey's skillset is much needed in the SL, would just be a misfire by Darko. Bruce is a career 33% 3pt shooter and is also 6'4" and even though he plays bigger than he is, that's a really small backcourt. His lack of 3 point shooting isn't what the SL needs.. and it's not like he's a wing stopper. Playing Gradey around the starters will advance his game and give us a better result with him long term.