With the 31st pick, the Raptors select Jonathan Mogbo

[Psubs]

In comparison to Siakam's rookie year:

JMogbo: 15.8 MIN, 5.2 PPG, 4.3 REB, 1.4 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.4 STL, .485 FG, .300 3PT, .727 FT, .563 TS, 14.3 USG
Siakam: 15.6 MIN, 4.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 0.3 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.5 STL, .502 FG, .143 3PT, .688 FT, .523 TS, 13.1 USG

The assists are what should get him more PT and Boucher traded.

I would also say that Shead's emergence has Davion able to be traded.

[Thaddy]

In comparison to Siakam's rookie year:

JMogbo: 15.8 MIN, 5.2 PPG, 4.3 REB, 1.4 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.4 STL, .485 FG, .300 3PT, .727 FT, .563 TS, 14.3 USG
Siakam: 15.6 MIN, 4.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 0.3 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.5 STL, .502 FG, .143 3PT, .688 FT, .523 TS, 13.1 USG

The assists are what should get him more PT and Boucher traded.

I would also say that Shead's emergence has Davion able to be traded.

Shead and Agbaji have some of the worst on/off stats on our team. Mitchell hasn't been great but he'll look better in his bench role than as a starter.

The Agbaji experiment is ending soon. Once Walter adjusts and ramps up to the NBA game he should get those minutes.

Poeltl / Mogbo / Fernando
Barnes / Mogbo
Barrett / Walter
Brown / Dick
Quickely / Mitchell

I have a feeling Olynyk is also done in the NBA. If we can trade guys for picks it needs to start on December 15th.

[Ell Curry]

In comparison to Siakam's rookie year:

JMogbo: 15.8 MIN, 5.2 PPG, 4.3 REB, 1.4 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.4 STL, .485 FG, .300 3PT, .727 FT, .563 TS, 14.3 USG
Siakam: 15.6 MIN, 4.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 0.3 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.5 STL, .502 FG, .143 3PT, .688 FT, .523 TS, 13.1 USG

Does anyone recall why Siakam's USG was quite so low as a rookie?

Mogbo's usage seems about right for a guy in college who was only at 22 USG in his final year, but Siakam was a pretty typical star in college his final year at 29 USG (and was at 22 USG as a freshman).

I think Mogbo looks a really solid player, but it's hard to see him becoming a serious scorer like Siakam, just from an aggressiveness and mid-range shooting/moves standpoint.

On the other hand, his free throw rate is as high as Siakam's was in his 3rd year, when we won the title and he was getting 17 a night and the #2 scorer on the team, so who the hell knows?

[OakleyDokely]

In comparison to Siakam's rookie year:

JMogbo: 15.8 MIN, 5.2 PPG, 4.3 REB, 1.4 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.4 STL, .485 FG, .300 3PT, .727 FT, .563 TS, 14.3 USG
Siakam: 15.6 MIN, 4.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 0.3 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.5 STL, .502 FG, .143 3PT, .688 FT, .523 TS, 13.1 USG

Does anyone recall why Siakam's USG was quite so low as a rookie?

Mogbo's usage seems about right for a guy in college who was only at 22 USG in his final year, but Siakam was a pretty typical star in college his final year at 29 USG (and was at 22 USG as a freshman).

I think Mogbo looks a really solid player, but it's hard to see him becoming a serious scorer like Siakam, just from an aggressiveness and mid-range shooting/moves standpoint.

On the other hand, his free throw rate is as high as Siakam's was in his 3rd year, when we won the title and he was getting 17 a night and the #2 scorer on the team, so who the hell knows?

Siakam wasn't a shooter coming out of college and he hadn't refined his off the dribble game so he basically game into the NBA as a guy who scored in transition and got garbage buckets. In college, if you have a size, speed and atheltic advantage, especially in a lesser college conference, you can put big big numbers against mostly guys who'll never sniff europe let alone the NBA. .

[AbC?]

Is there any point in comparing any prospects to Siakam, like, at all? He had an extremely rare developmental arc, nearly unprecedented. You could compare near any young player in the league to Siakam's first couple seasons and they would come out favorably.

Seems like a useless exercise IMO.

[RoteSchroder]

In comparison to Siakam's rookie year:

JMogbo: 15.8 MIN, 5.2 PPG, 4.3 REB, 1.4 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.4 STL, .485 FG, .300 3PT, .727 FT, .563 TS, 14.3 USG
Siakam: 15.6 MIN, 4.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 0.3 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.5 STL, .502 FG, .143 3PT, .688 FT, .523 TS, 13.1 USG

Does anyone recall why Siakam's USG was quite so low as a rookie?

Mogbo's usage seems about right for a guy in college who was only at 22 USG in his final year, but Siakam was a pretty typical star in college his final year at 29 USG (and was at 22 USG as a freshman).

I think Mogbo looks a really solid player, but it's hard to see him becoming a serious scorer like Siakam, just from an aggressiveness and mid-range shooting/moves standpoint.

On the other hand, his free throw rate is as high as Siakam's was in his 3rd year, when we won the title and he was getting 17 a night and the #2 scorer on the team, so who the hell knows?

I thought Siakam was underutilized from the start and Derozan wasn't exactly generous with the ball at the time. Even JV was underutilized.

[RoteSchroder]

Is there any point in comparing any prospects to Siakam, like, at all? He had an extremely rare developmental arc, nearly unprecedented. You could compare near any young player in the league to Siakam's first couple seasons and they would come out favorably.

Seems like a useless exercise IMO.

Siakam had a bag in college and averaged 20 PPG, go back and look at his highlights. Spin moves, mid-range jumpers, post-moves. It's not a rare developmental arc at all.

Mogbo averaged 14 PPG on mostly dunks/lay-ups. Doesn't have much of a scoring bag. Mogbo becoming a tier 2 offensive player would definitely be rare. His projection is more so a role player on offense. The hope is probably like a Boris Diaw type.

[AbC?]

Is there any point in comparing any prospects to Siakam, like, at all? He had an extremely rare developmental arc, nearly unprecedented. You could compare near any young player in the league to Siakam's first couple seasons and they would come out favorably.

Seems like a useless exercise IMO.

Siakam had a bag in college and averaged 20 PPG, go back and look at his highlights. Spin moves, mid-range jumpers, post-moves. It's not a rare developmental arc at all.

Mogbo averaged 14 PPG on mostly dunks/lay-ups. Doesn't have much of a scoring bag. Mogbo becoming a tier 2 offensive player would definitely be rare. His projection is more so a role player on offense. The hope is probably like a Boris Diaw type.

It absolutely is a rare developmental arc. How many players in the league started playing basketball at 17 and became all-NBA level players? He could have plateaued at a million different points but just kept ascending.

His development encompassed his college career as well, but his improvement year over year throughout his basketball career is ridiculous

[RoteSchroder]

Is there any point in comparing any prospects to Siakam, like, at all? He had an extremely rare developmental arc, nearly unprecedented. You could compare near any young player in the league to Siakam's first couple seasons and they would come out favorably.

Seems like a useless exercise IMO.

Siakam had a bag in college and averaged 20 PPG, go back and look at his highlights. Spin moves, mid-range jumpers, post-moves. It's not a rare developmental arc at all.

Mogbo averaged 14 PPG on mostly dunks/lay-ups. Doesn't have much of a scoring bag. Mogbo becoming a tier 2 offensive player would definitely be rare. His projection is more so a role player on offense. The hope is probably like a Boris Diaw type.

It absolutely is a rare developmental arc. How many players in the league started playing basketball at 17 and became all-NBA level players? He could have plateaued at a million different points but just kept ascending.

His development encompassed his college career as well, but his improvement year over year throughout his basketball career is ridiculous

For one, I meant his NBA arc. Derozan and Bosh had less skill than Siakam starting off in the NBA.

A natural talent starting at 17 doesn't make him any less of a natural talent. You can say every single all-star in history had a rare developmental arc. All of them started off at 0 at some point and they could have all have plateaued at a million different points, but they just kept ascending.

Norman Powell, also had a very rare developmental arc wouldn't you say? Jerami Grant, also very rare. Embiid, Hakeem, Duncan, David Robinson, Amare all started out late, and most of them turned out to be a tier or two higher than Siakam, very rare. Lowry, very rare. Jimmy Butler, very rare. Dennis Rodman, didn't even see any court time until his 20's, he was an airport janitor until his growth spurt, very rare. Look at Luol Deng's story, very rare. Steve Francis started at 16, look at how skilled he was, very rare. Mutombo, 17, very rare. Mark Eaton, 20, very rare.

Every single good player in the NBA has had a rare developmental arc. They are the upper 0.0001% echelon of the world.

[AbC?]

Siakam had a bag in college and averaged 20 PPG, go back and look at his highlights. Spin moves, mid-range jumpers, post-moves. It's not a rare developmental arc at all.

Mogbo averaged 14 PPG on mostly dunks/lay-ups. Doesn't have much of a scoring bag. Mogbo becoming a tier 2 offensive player would definitely be rare. His projection is more so a role player on offense. The hope is probably like a Boris Diaw type.

It absolutely is a rare developmental arc. How many players in the league started playing basketball at 17 and became all-NBA level players? He could have plateaued at a million different points but just kept ascending.

His development encompassed his college career as well, but his improvement year over year throughout his basketball career is ridiculous

For one, I meant his NBA arc. Derozan and Bosh had less skill than Siakam starting off in the NBA.

A natural talent starting at 17 doesn't make him any less of a natural talent. You can say every single all-star in history had a rare developmental arc. All of them started off at 0 at some point and they could have all have plateaued at a million different points, but they just kept ascending.

Norman Powell, also had a very rare developmental arc wouldn't you say? Jerami Grant, also very rare. Embiid, Hakeem, Duncan, David Robinson, Amare all started out late, and most of them turned out to be a tier or two higher than Siakam, very rare. Lowry, very rare. Jimmy Butler, very rare. Dennis Rodman, didn't even see any court time until his 20's, he was an airport janitor until his growth spurt, very rare. Look at Luol Deng's story, very rare. Steve Francis started at 16, look at how skilled he was, very rare. Mutombo, 17, very rare. Mark Eaton, 20, very rare.

Every single good player in the NBA has had a rare developmental arc. They are the upper 0.0001% echelon of the world.

What are you even arguing? My initial point was that comparing Siakam's stats his first couple years to other prospects is silly because his numbers were so pedestrian that the majority of players would look good in comparison.

Seems like your arguing semantics. Sure, technically every single NBA player's developmental arc is rare since only ~4800 people have ever played in the league in its entire history.

[RoteSchroder]

What are you even arguing? My initial point was that comparing Siakam's stats his first couple years to other prospects is silly because his numbers were so pedestrian that the majority of players would look good in comparison.

Seems like your arguing semantics. Sure, technically every single NBA player's developmental arc is rare since only ~4800 people have ever played in the league in its entire history.

and my point was that Siakam's development into a talented scorer was foreseeable due to his initial base of athleticism and skill set starting in the NBA, not "extremely rare".

Mogbo doesn't have the same starting point or natural touch as Siakam, which is the main reason they shouldn't be compared.

[OakleyDokely]

Mogbo's skill level is pretty high. He's raw offensively, but he's got ball skills (playmaking/ball handling), he's extremely nimble, and he processes the game very welll. If he puts in the work, he can develop an efficient offensive package.

[GoRapstheoriginal]

Decent game tonight.

[Ell Curry]

In comparison to Siakam's rookie year:

JMogbo: 15.8 MIN, 5.2 PPG, 4.3 REB, 1.4 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.4 STL, .485 FG, .300 3PT, .727 FT, .563 TS, 14.3 USG
Siakam: 15.6 MIN, 4.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 0.3 AST, 0.8 BLK, 0.5 STL, .502 FG, .143 3PT, .688 FT, .523 TS, 13.1 USG

Does anyone recall why Siakam's USG was quite so low as a rookie?

Mogbo's usage seems about right for a guy in college who was only at 22 USG in his final year, but Siakam was a pretty typical star in college his final year at 29 USG (and was at 22 USG as a freshman).

I think Mogbo looks a really solid player, but it's hard to see him becoming a serious scorer like Siakam, just from an aggressiveness and mid-range shooting/moves standpoint.

On the other hand, his free throw rate is as high as Siakam's was in his 3rd year, when we won the title and he was getting 17 a night and the #2 scorer on the team, so who the hell knows?

Siakam wasn't a shooter coming out of college and he hadn't refined his off the dribble game so he basically game into the NBA as a guy who scored in transition and got garbage buckets. In college, if you have a size, speed and atheltic advantage, especially in a lesser college conference, you can put big big numbers against mostly guys who'll never sniff europe let alone the NBA. .

Sure, but Mogbo had the same advantage in a less conference, and he used it to facilitate mostly, whereas Siakam was trying to get buckets. I think they're different enough that I would be surprised if Mogbo develops the same way.

Feels more like the realistic hope here is that he becomes a sort of Avdija swiss army knife type jack of all-trades decent starting 4/very good 7th man type of guy, and that his defence remains good (whereas Siakam's went from very good to decent as he became more of a scorer) and his passing is a genuine asset. Basically a 15 mil a year version of Scottie Barnes.

[OakleyDokely]

Does anyone recall why Siakam's USG was quite so low as a rookie?

Mogbo's usage seems about right for a guy in college who was only at 22 USG in his final year, but Siakam was a pretty typical star in college his final year at 29 USG (and was at 22 USG as a freshman).

I think Mogbo looks a really solid player, but it's hard to see him becoming a serious scorer like Siakam, just from an aggressiveness and mid-range shooting/moves standpoint.

On the other hand, his free throw rate is as high as Siakam's was in his 3rd year, when we won the title and he was getting 17 a night and the #2 scorer on the team, so who the hell knows?

Siakam wasn't a shooter coming out of college and he hadn't refined his off the dribble game so he basically game into the NBA as a guy who scored in transition and got garbage buckets. In college, if you have a size, speed and atheltic advantage, especially in a lesser college conference, you can put big big numbers against mostly guys who'll never sniff europe let alone the NBA. .

Sure, but Mogbo had the same advantage in a less conference, and he used it to facilitate mostly, whereas Siakam was trying to get buckets. I think they're different enough that I would be surprised if Mogbo develops the same way.

Feels more like the realistic hope here is that he becomes a sort of Avdija swiss army knife type jack of all-trades decent starting 4/very good 7th man type of guy, and that his defence remains good (whereas Siakam's went from very good to decent as he became more of a scorer) and his passing is a genuine asset. Basically a 15 mil a year version of Scottie Barnes.

I don't think he's going to get to Siakam's level offensively, but there's a path for him to be a functional, positive offensive player. I think he can be quite a bit better defensively though.

[WiggOuts]

What are you even arguing? My initial point was that comparing Siakam's stats his first couple years to other prospects is silly because his numbers were so pedestrian that the majority of players would look good in comparison.

Seems like your arguing semantics. Sure, technically every single NBA player's developmental arc is rare since only ~4800 people have ever played in the league in its entire history.

and my point was that Siakam's development into a talented scorer was foreseeable due to his initial base of athleticism and skill set starting in the NBA, not "extremely rare".

Mogbo doesn't have the same starting point or natural touch as Siakam, which is the main reason they shouldn't be compared.

You must be some sort of basketball scouting guru with your eye for talent and potential. Masai, Casey and even Nurse all said on record that they didn't see Siakam becoming this level of a scorer. He definitely had tools, Masai always goes after guys with tools and work ethic.

Siakam, based on what he looked like his first year compared to what you see today improved tremendously. There probably aren't that many players in the history of the league that can compare to his amount of growth, he's definitely in the top percentile.

He went from G-league to all NBA

[RoteSchroder]

What are you even arguing? My initial point was that comparing Siakam's stats his first couple years to other prospects is silly because his numbers were so pedestrian that the majority of players would look good in comparison.

Seems like your arguing semantics. Sure, technically every single NBA player's developmental arc is rare since only ~4800 people have ever played in the league in its entire history.

and my point was that Siakam's development into a talented scorer was foreseeable due to his initial base of athleticism and skill set starting in the NBA, not "extremely rare".

Mogbo doesn't have the same starting point or natural touch as Siakam, which is the main reason they shouldn't be compared.

You must be some sort of basketball scouting guru with your eye for talent and potential. Masai, Casey and even Nurse all said on record that they didn't see Siakam becoming this level of a scorer. He definitely had tools, Masai always goes after guys with tools and work ethic.

Siakam, based on what he looked like his first year compared to what you see today improved tremendously. There probably aren't that many players in the history of the league that can compare to his amount of growth, he's definitely in the top percentile.

He went from G-league to all NBA

Derozan started off with worse athleticism, worse defense, worse offensive skill set, worse b-ball IQ, yet we made that bum our franchise player and he turned into an all-star.

Masai not thinking he would reach this level doesn't mean he didn't see potential in him, otherwise why would we draft Siakam over the highly touted Skal.

Pre-draft, scouts and journalists were already commenting on Siakam's potential. It's not like zero people recognized the possibility of a high upside. Many players don't have this upside and are projected to be a role player. Pre-draft there were scouts reporting on Siakam having high two-way upside, including being elite defensively, only that it was a big question mark on if he could ever get there.

[maternal85]

and my point was that Siakam's development into a talented scorer was foreseeable due to his initial base of athleticism and skill set starting in the NBA, not "extremely rare".

Mogbo doesn't have the same starting point or natural touch as Siakam, which is the main reason they shouldn't be compared.

You must be some sort of basketball scouting guru with your eye for talent and potential. Masai, Casey and even Nurse all said on record that they didn't see Siakam becoming this level of a scorer. He definitely had tools, Masai always goes after guys with tools and work ethic.

Siakam, based on what he looked like his first year compared to what you see today improved tremendously. There probably aren't that many players in the history of the league that can compare to his amount of growth, he's definitely in the top percentile.

He went from G-league to all NBA

Derozan started off with worse athleticism, worse defense, worse offensive skill set, worse b-ball IQ, yet we made that bum our franchise player and he turned into an all-star.

Masai not thinking he would reach this level doesn't mean he didn't see potential in him, otherwise why would we draft Siakam over the highly touted Skal.

Pre-draft, scouts and journalists were already commenting on Siakam's potential. It's not like zero people recognized the possibility of a high upside. Many players don't have this upside and are projected to be a role player. Pre-draft there were scouts reporting on Siakam having high two-way upside, including being elite defensively, only that it was a big question mark on if he could ever get there.

Then why was he drafted in the late first round ? Do you realize he's better than the 1st overall pick in his draft class ? Let me guess, scouts expected that as well ? Siakam overachieved point blank.

[RoteSchroder]

You must be some sort of basketball scouting guru with your eye for talent and potential. Masai, Casey and even Nurse all said on record that they didn't see Siakam becoming this level of a scorer. He definitely had tools, Masai always goes after guys with tools and work ethic.

Siakam, based on what he looked like his first year compared to what you see today improved tremendously. There probably aren't that many players in the history of the league that can compare to his amount of growth, he's definitely in the top percentile.

He went from G-league to all NBA

Derozan started off with worse athleticism, worse defense, worse offensive skill set, worse b-ball IQ, yet we made that bum our franchise player and he turned into an all-star.

Masai not thinking he would reach this level doesn't mean he didn't see potential in him, otherwise why would we draft Siakam over the highly touted Skal.

Pre-draft, scouts and journalists were already commenting on Siakam's potential. It's not like zero people recognized the possibility of a high upside. Many players don't have this upside and are projected to be a role player. Pre-draft there were scouts reporting on Siakam having high two-way upside, including being elite defensively, only that it was a big question mark on if he could ever get there.

Then why was he drafted in the late first round ? Do you realize he's better than the 1st overall pick in his draft class ? Let me guess, scouts expected that as well ? Siakam overachieved point blank.

Every player who reaches their peak overachieves. Derozan also overachieved. What's your point? In context, is it rare for players to reach their potential?

High upside doesn't mean they're likely to get there. With Siakam there were a ton of question marks mainly because of his age. If he was doing the same thing at 18/19 instead of 22, he'd go higher.

Also, the athletic 6'8/6'9 archetype wasn't exactly highly coveted at the time. Kawhi and Giannis were drafted at 15, and at a much younger age. It was also mainly Masai trying to go after these players. Look at him taking Bruno, OG, Scottie.

[maternal85]

Derozan started off with worse athleticism, worse defense, worse offensive skill set, worse b-ball IQ, yet we made that bum our franchise player and he turned into an all-star.

Masai not thinking he would reach this level doesn't mean he didn't see potential in him, otherwise why would we draft Siakam over the highly touted Skal.

Pre-draft, scouts and journalists were already commenting on Siakam's potential. It's not like zero people recognized the possibility of a high upside. Many players don't have this upside and are projected to be a role player. Pre-draft there were scouts reporting on Siakam having high two-way upside, including being elite defensively, only that it was a big question mark on if he could ever get there.

Then why was he drafted in the late first round ? Do you realize he's better than the 1st overall pick in his draft class ? Let me guess, scouts expected that as well ? Siakam overachieved point blank.

Every player who reaches their peak overachieves. Derozan also overachieved. What's your point? In context, is it rare for players to reach their potential?

High upside doesn't mean they're likely to get there. With Siakam there were a ton of question marks mainly because of his age. If he was doing the same thing at 18/19 instead of 22, he'd go higher.

Also, the athletic 6'8/6'9 archetype wasn't exactly highly coveted at the time. Kawhi and Giannis were drafted at 15, and at a much younger age. It was also mainly Masai trying to go after these players. Look at him taking Bruno, OG, Scottie.

Teams scout players, then use metrics to make the best educated guess on how good they may end up. No GM knew how good Sakiam would end up, including Ujiri. His educated guess paid off. This narrative on how scouts knew Siakam would be a good 2 way player, blah ... is just talk. He never would have fell that far down if his talents were that predictable.