Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[Tripod]

When people comment on Barnes and have to talk about their beloved FVV, you know there is an agenda and bias.

[mdenny]

He's shooting 27% from three, what's the excuse for that? Are you trying to say he didn't try to develop his shot in the first 2 years?

Like I said to you before, next year the excuse if his performance sucks again will be because they're incorporating Ingram. Nothing is ever Scottie's fault.

Did you see his first two years? He was clearly the most talented, but Nick didnt even try to develop him. We got glimpses of what he can do as a lead guy, and it looked good.


Again, launching threes this year was part of the development, the eye and ankle injuries were unfortunate, and had huge impact on that.
But taking them was to get him comfortable in game, doesn't matter if it goes.

If you want Pre-OG trade Scottie, shooting nearly 40% three, I think we need to draft/trade for a lead defender.
It Allows Scottie to play rover, allowing him to have more energy on offence.

Also, I personally think it'll be a smoother fit with Ingram, than it was with Pascal.

lol never seen a player have this many excuses made for them, the golden child nickname Fred had for him is really quite accurate

Accurate but not in a way that's scotty's fault. It wasn't him that was blaming other players and coaches. It was his toxic boosters. So it's an accurate term....but through no fault of his own I think.

[Thaddy]

Did you see his first two years? He was clearly the most talented, but Nick didnt even try to develop him. We got glimpses of what he can do as a lead guy, and it looked good.


Again, launching threes this year was part of the development, the eye and ankle injuries were unfortunate, and had huge impact on that.
But taking them was to get him comfortable in game, doesn't matter if it goes.

If you want Pre-OG trade Scottie, shooting nearly 40% three, I think we need to draft/trade for a lead defender.
It Allows Scottie to play rover, allowing him to have more energy on offence.

Also, I personally think it'll be a smoother fit with Ingram, than it was with Pascal.

lol never seen a player have this many excuses made for them, the golden child nickname Fred had for him is really quite accurate

Accurate but not in a way that's scotty's fault. It wasn't him that was blaming other players and coaches. It was his toxic boosters. So it's an accurate term....but through no fault of his own I think.

If we had a reliable stretch C Barnes would look really good. Poeple where surprised with Olynyk have an insanely high BPM. Well when you clear out the opposing rim defense with a stretch big guess who it opens lanes for

[mdenny]

lol never seen a player have this many excuses made for them, the golden child nickname Fred had for him is really quite accurate

Accurate but not in a way that's scotty's fault. It wasn't him that was blaming other players and coaches. It was his toxic boosters. So it's an accurate term....but through no fault of his own I think.

If we had a reliable stretch C Barnes would look really good. Poeple where surprised with Olynyk have an insanely high BPM. Well when you clear out the opposing rim defense with a stretch big guess who it opens lanes for

I could see that. But the excuses and boosting have been so ridiculously out of control for years now.

There are no nba journalists complaining about the "siakam mafia" or that of any other raptor player.

You have to be lying to yourself to not acknowledge that a huge toxic element of the raptor fanbase latched themselves to Barnes. Threatening player wives on Instagram. I mean ...the whole thing was honestly unprecedented. And they were WRONG about all their narratives. ALL of them.

[Thaddy]

Accurate but not in a way that's scotty's fault. It wasn't him that was blaming other players and coaches. It was his toxic boosters. So it's an accurate term....but through no fault of his own I think.

If we had a reliable stretch C Barnes would look really good. Poeple where surprised with Olynyk have an insanely high BPM. Well when you clear out the opposing rim defense with a stretch big guess who it opens lanes for

I could see that. But the excuses and boosting have been so ridiculously out of control for years now.

There are no nba journalists complaining about the "siakam mafia" or that of any other raptor player.

You have to be lying to yourself to not acknowledge that a huge toxic element of the raptor fanbase latched themselves to Barnes. Threatening player wives on Instagram. I mean ...the whole thing was honestly unprecedented. And they were WRONG about all their narratives. ALL of them.

I don't use social media. That sounds bad but a couple of 12 year olds doesn't define a fanbase. There is also truth to what's being said.

We didn't build around Barnes well. We played him at SG, C, and everywhere but his natural position. Then we didn't have the best fitting pieces around him. He should be with a stretch big and he doesn't have a great amount of space. The Celtics, Magic, etc all have some kind of stretch C, we had Olynyk and? Yeah just Olynyk and over the hill role piece that is cooked in the NBA when it comes to high level basketball.

We didn't have any great above the break shooters next to Barnes either. Before he came we had Lowry and then none of FVV, OG, Siakam, etc could shoot well above the break.

[ConSarnit]

barnes is not an aesthetically pleasing offensive player. that, by default, will come will a negative view from non raptor fans. combine that with not winning games and he is an easy target.

He's a very "aesthetically pleasing" player when he sticks to his strengths and doesn't start jacking up dumb 3s from the start of the game.
His poor shot selection makes him hard to watch at times but when he's locked in, he does everything so well - playmaking, mid range scoring, defense, etc.

I also don't have a problem with him taking 3s during the game, AS LONG AS he starts from scoring inside and works his way out. See the ball go through the net a few times via high percentage shots and then the 3 ball will follow suit.

He does not do everything well. This is crazy talk. He’s a good creator for others but there is no evidence he can run an actual good NBA offense. Do people not realize how damaging a player with 26% usage on 53% TS is? 25% of your offense when Barnes is on the floor is just flat out bad because of him. He doesn’t provide spacing and he’s not a good screener. He doesn’t get the rim or draw fouls. His best scoring skill (midrange) is the least valuable type of scoring for a team because it provides no spacing and it doesn’t draw fouls.

I don’t know if people are blinded by homerism but if Barnes were not a Raptor his long term role on a good team would be in question. His shooting either needs to get much better or he needs to be able to play C more. Non spacing defensive pf’s aren’t that valuable. I hope his scoring game improves but the excuses being made for the guy are crazy.

To anyone who thinks current Barnes is good: who is his contemporary (in play style) who has actually contributed to a winning team? Who are these inefficient, non-spacing PF’s who are making an impact around the league?

(I say all of this as someone who wants the best for Barnes but we have to be realistic about how he’s performing this year and what that could mean for the future)

[Indeed]

He might be in year 4, but he's in year 2 of development.
No one seems to see this, but a few of us.

His first years, he played like a plug and play vet.

Last year was the start of his development, and he became an Allstar.
A mid-season roster change, put that on pause while we incorporated RJ and IQ. That's 2 new starters.

This year, fit wise is a better roster, but less experienced, which makes the development harder, on purpose.


He's an unconventional player, with an unconventional road to stardom.
I think this what people are missing.

He's shooting 27% from three, what's the excuse for that? Are you trying to say he didn't try to develop his shot in the first 2 years?

Like I said to you before, next year the excuse if his performance sucks again will be because they're incorporating Ingram. Nothing is ever Scottie's fault.

Did you see his first two years? He was clearly the most talented, but Nick didnt even try to develop him. We got glimpses of what he can do as a lead guy, and it looked good.


Again, launching threes this year was part of the development, the eye and ankle injuries were unfortunate, and had huge impact on that.
But taking them was to get him comfortable in game, doesn't matter if it goes.

If you want Pre-OG trade Scottie, shooting nearly 40% three, I think we need to draft/trade for a lead defender.
It Allows Scottie to play rover, allowing him to have more energy on offence.

Also, I personally think it'll be a smoother fit with Ingram, than it was with Pascal.

Welcome to the Bargnani believer club.
13 games sample
Wrong development
Poor fit around

Are we moving on now?

[PushDaRock]

barnes is not an aesthetically pleasing offensive player. that, by default, will come will a negative view from non raptor fans. combine that with not winning games and he is an easy target.

He's a very "aesthetically pleasing" player when he sticks to his strengths and doesn't start jacking up dumb 3s from the start of the game.
His poor shot selection makes him hard to watch at times but when he's locked in, he does everything so well - playmaking, mid range scoring, defense, etc.

I also don't have a problem with him taking 3s during the game, AS LONG AS he starts from scoring inside and works his way out. See the ball go through the net a few times via high percentage shots and then the 3 ball will follow suit.

He does not do everything well. This is crazy talk. He’s a good creator for others but there is no evidence he can run an actual good NBA offense. Do people not realize how damaging a player with 26% usage on 53% TS is? 25% of your offense when Barnes is on the floor is just flat out bad because of him. He doesn’t provide spacing and he’s not a good screener. He doesn’t get the rim or draw fouls. His best scoring skill (midrange) is the least valuable type of scoring for a team because it provides no spacing and it doesn’t draw fouls.

I don’t know if people are blinded by homerism but if Barnes were not a Raptor his long term role on a good team would be in question. His shooting either needs to get much better or he needs to be able to play C more. Non spacing defensive pf’s aren’t that valuable. I hope his scoring game improves but the excuses being made for the guy are crazy.

To anyone who thinks current Barnes is good: who is his contemporary (in play style) who has actually contributed to a winning team? Who are these inefficient, non-spacing PF’s who are making an impact around the league?

(I say all of this as someone who wants the best for Barnes but we have to be realistic about how he’s performing this year and what that could mean for the future)

There's a reason a lot of people are starting to come around to the fact that he's closer to Lamar Odom and Andre Iguodala than he is to being even a #2 option on a good team. Right now, he's probably the 4th best scorer on the roster, that could turn into 5th if Gradey takes another step. It just makes little sense to be talking so much about building an offense around a guy with no truly elite scoring skill.

I think there is a path for him to get to league average efficiency but it will likely need his USG rate getting down to around 20% and his 3 point shot improving to at least the low 30's. I think the way he maximizes his potential as a player is putting his focus towards his D, that's the area where he has potential to be truly elite. If he's an All-NBA defender, being a mediocre scorer matters a lot less.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

Did you see his first two years? He was clearly the most talented, but Nick didnt even try to develop him. We got glimpses of what he can do as a lead guy, and it looked good.


Again, launching threes this year was part of the development, the eye and ankle injuries were unfortunate, and had huge impact on that.
But taking them was to get him comfortable in game, doesn't matter if it goes.

If you want Pre-OG trade Scottie, shooting nearly 40% three, I think we need to draft/trade for a lead defender.
It Allows Scottie to play rover, allowing him to have more energy on offence.

Also, I personally think it'll be a smoother fit with Ingram, than it was with Pascal.

lol never seen a player have this many excuses made for them, the golden child nickname Fred had for him is really quite accurate

Accurate but not in a way that's scotty's fault. It wasn't him that was blaming other players and coaches. It was his toxic boosters. So it's an accurate term....but through no fault of his own I think.

Scottie had some maturity issues over the years. I think the fvv of then would get along well with the Scottie of today.

[mdenny]

lol never seen a player have this many excuses made for them, the golden child nickname Fred had for him is really quite accurate

Accurate but not in a way that's scotty's fault. It wasn't him that was blaming other players and coaches. It was his toxic boosters. So it's an accurate term....but through no fault of his own I think.

Scottie had some maturity issues over the years. I think the fvv of then would get along well with the Scottie of today.

Bro the hate spam was unprecedented. Fred's wife was a target.

It wasn't scotty's fault that he is the golden child. But will scotty transcend his golden child status? He is so fragile and weak in demeanor.

[tsherkin]

[ He is so fragile and weak in demeanor.

His demeanor isn't super relevant. We're very distant from contention, and are focused more on seeing if we can use him effectively as a scoring threat in his current role, or if we need to stick to D and playmaking because he can't finish effectively when he's creating for himself.

[sidsid]

barnes is not an aesthetically pleasing offensive player. that, by default, will come will a negative view from non raptor fans. combine that with not winning games and he is an easy target.

He's a very "aesthetically pleasing" player when he sticks to his strengths and doesn't start jacking up dumb 3s from the start of the game.
His poor shot selection makes him hard to watch at times but when he's locked in, he does everything so well - playmaking, mid range scoring, defense, etc.

I also don't have a problem with him taking 3s during the game, AS LONG AS he starts from scoring inside and works his way out. See the ball go through the net a few times via high percentage shots and then the 3 ball will follow suit.

He does not do everything well. This is crazy talk. He’s a good creator for others but there is no evidence he can run an actual good NBA offense. Do people not realize how damaging a player with 26% usage on 53% TS is? 25% of your offense when Barnes is on the floor is just flat out bad because of him. He doesn’t provide spacing and he’s not a good screener. He doesn’t get the rim or draw fouls. His best scoring skill (midrange) is the least valuable type of scoring for a team because it provides no spacing and it doesn’t draw fouls.

I don’t know if people are blinded by homerism but if Barnes were not a Raptor his long term role on a good team would be in question. His shooting either needs to get much better or he needs to be able to play C more. Non spacing defensive pf’s aren’t that valuable. I hope his scoring game improves but the excuses being made for the guy are crazy.

To anyone who thinks current Barnes is good: who is his contemporary (in play style) who has actually contributed to a winning team? Who are these inefficient, non-spacing PF’s who are making an impact around the league?

(I say all of this as someone who wants the best for Barnes but we have to be realistic about how he’s performing this year and what that could mean for the future)

I'll get to the why after. A mixture of role and fit/playstyle would be Sabonis and Giannis. Scottie's strengths are as a hub.

Sabonis, who is a PF in spite of where he plays, can't defend, but he plays C because if he has a non-spacing C next to him the offense, not just his, will die (not a choice the Raptors have to make as Barnes is turning into a great help defender). The Kings choose to live with it and try to have a modern offense.

Giannis is a force who already has playoff teams selling out on him in the paint regardless of spacing, but that's at the expense of giving up 3s to his 4 shooters, including his spacing C. If they didn't have 4 shooters it would be much easier to turn the water off completely to their offense.

The Raptors choose to sacrifice a modern offense in order to build around a non-spacing C role player who does provide benefits to the defense.

With that sacrifice, we still get to see Scottie work on individual skills like pull-up 3s, but that's pretty much the limit of growth we can do with management's poor team building and role definition.

The good news if we get a Durant like trade, I'm pretty sure it'll be built around RJ/Jak, leading to crunch time lineups like this:

Barnes
Durant
BI
Ochai
IQ

At least we'll get to see a modern offense with proper roles. Until that happens, there is no real fix to the team's offense/efficiency unless Barnes turns into a Paul George like sniper.

[ConSarnit]

He's a very "aesthetically pleasing" player when he sticks to his strengths and doesn't start jacking up dumb 3s from the start of the game.
His poor shot selection makes him hard to watch at times but when he's locked in, he does everything so well - playmaking, mid range scoring, defense, etc.

I also don't have a problem with him taking 3s during the game, AS LONG AS he starts from scoring inside and works his way out. See the ball go through the net a few times via high percentage shots and then the 3 ball will follow suit.

He does not do everything well. This is crazy talk. He’s a good creator for others but there is no evidence he can run an actual good NBA offense. Do people not realize how damaging a player with 26% usage on 53% TS is? 25% of your offense when Barnes is on the floor is just flat out bad because of him. He doesn’t provide spacing and he’s not a good screener. He doesn’t get the rim or draw fouls. His best scoring skill (midrange) is the least valuable type of scoring for a team because it provides no spacing and it doesn’t draw fouls.

I don’t know if people are blinded by homerism but if Barnes were not a Raptor his long term role on a good team would be in question. His shooting either needs to get much better or he needs to be able to play C more. Non spacing defensive pf’s aren’t that valuable. I hope his scoring game improves but the excuses being made for the guy are crazy.

To anyone who thinks current Barnes is good: who is his contemporary (in play style) who has actually contributed to a winning team? Who are these inefficient, non-spacing PF’s who are making an impact around the league?

(I say all of this as someone who wants the best for Barnes but we have to be realistic about how he’s performing this year and what that could mean for the future)

I'll get to the why after. A mixture of role and fit/playstyle would be Sabonis and Giannis. Scottie's strengths are as a hub.

Sabonis, who is a PF in spite of where he plays, can't defend, but he plays C because if he has a non-spacing C next to him the offense, not just his, will die (not a choice the Raptors have to make as Barnes is turning into a great help defender). The Kings choose to live with it and try to have a modern offense.

Giannis is a force who already has playoff teams selling out on him in the paint regardless of spacing, but that's at the expense of giving up 3s to his 4 shooters, including his spacing C. If they didn't have 4 shooters it would be much easier to turn the water off completely to their offense.

The Raptors choose to sacrifice a modern offense in order to build around a non-spacing C role player who does provide benefits to the defense.

With that sacrifice, we still get to see Scottie work on individual skills like pull-up 3s, but that's pretty much the limit of growth we can do with management's poor team building and role definition.

The good news if we get a Durant like trade, I'm pretty sure it'll be built around RJ/Jak, leading to crunch time lineups like this:

Barnes
Durant
BI
Ochai
IQ

At least we'll get to see a modern offense with proper roles. Until that happens, there is no real fix to the team's offense/efficiency unless Barnes turns into a Paul George like sniper.

Barnes hasn't shown the ability to operate like Sabonis or Giannis.

Sabonis vs Barnes

-Sabonis might be the best screen in the league. He averages the most screen assists in the league (6.1 per game). Barnes screening has always been lacking and his screen assists bare this out (Barnes averages 0.8 screen assists per game, currently tied with FVV and Tim Hardaway Jr)

-Barnes is not near the rebounder Sabonis is. Sabonis is a top 5 rebounder in the league (19.8 reb%). Barnes averages 11.1 reb% (149th in the league)

Barnes does not do the "big man" things that we associate with successful non-floor spacing centers. He hasn't shown the ability to play like Sabonis. Barnes has shown some ability as a roll-man but that will mean much more screening, which he isn't really adept at.

Giannis vs Barnes

-while both lack outside shooting Giannis is one of the best players in history at getting to the rim and drawing fouls. Giannis leads the league in rim attempts (12.5 per game) and shoots a ridiculous 72% within 5ft. Barnes takes 4.6 rim attempts and makes them at league average (~63%)

-Giannis has shown he can operate as an elite rim protector when shifted to the 5. Maybe Barnes can there but he hasn't shown it yet

-Giannis has a career .520 free throw rate. That is elite. Barnes draws free throws at almost half the rate of Giannis

Giannis is one of the most relentless rim attackers in NBA history. Barnes does not have his size (compared to Giannis) or ability to get to the rim. Barnes has not shown the ball handling necessary to consistently attack the rim or the ability to draw fouls.

Barnes would have to make massive improvements across multiple areas of his game to get to Sabonis or Giannis levels. I don't believe he'll ever be able to reach near Giannis levels in terms of getting to the rim or drawing fouls. To play like Sabonis he would have to rapidly change the way he plays (pretty much make unprecedented jumps in screening and rebounding). At the rate he is going Barnes needs to develop an outside shot because nothing else except midrange is really working. If he could protect the rim at a high level as a small ball C (or next to a spacing 5) then he could contribute. Right now it's not looking great. Yes, your solution of trading for one of the best players of all-time (Durant) would make us much better but the odds of that are extremely low and shouldn't be counted on as a solution long-term.

[PushDaRock]

He's a very "aesthetically pleasing" player when he sticks to his strengths and doesn't start jacking up dumb 3s from the start of the game.
His poor shot selection makes him hard to watch at times but when he's locked in, he does everything so well - playmaking, mid range scoring, defense, etc.

I also don't have a problem with him taking 3s during the game, AS LONG AS he starts from scoring inside and works his way out. See the ball go through the net a few times via high percentage shots and then the 3 ball will follow suit.

He does not do everything well. This is crazy talk. He’s a good creator for others but there is no evidence he can run an actual good NBA offense. Do people not realize how damaging a player with 26% usage on 53% TS is? 25% of your offense when Barnes is on the floor is just flat out bad because of him. He doesn’t provide spacing and he’s not a good screener. He doesn’t get the rim or draw fouls. His best scoring skill (midrange) is the least valuable type of scoring for a team because it provides no spacing and it doesn’t draw fouls.

I don’t know if people are blinded by homerism but if Barnes were not a Raptor his long term role on a good team would be in question. His shooting either needs to get much better or he needs to be able to play C more. Non spacing defensive pf’s aren’t that valuable. I hope his scoring game improves but the excuses being made for the guy are crazy.

To anyone who thinks current Barnes is good: who is his contemporary (in play style) who has actually contributed to a winning team? Who are these inefficient, non-spacing PF’s who are making an impact around the league?

(I say all of this as someone who wants the best for Barnes but we have to be realistic about how he’s performing this year and what that could mean for the future)

I'll get to the why after. A mixture of role and fit/playstyle would be Sabonis and Giannis. Scottie's strengths are as a hub.

Sabonis, who is a PF in spite of where he plays, can't defend, but he plays C because if he has a non-spacing C next to him the offense, not just his, will die (not a choice the Raptors have to make as Barnes is turning into a great help defender). The Kings choose to live with it and try to have a modern offense.

Giannis is a force who already has playoff teams selling out on him in the paint regardless of spacing, but that's at the expense of giving up 3s to his 4 shooters, including his spacing C. If they didn't have 4 shooters it would be much easier to turn the water off completely to their offense.

The Raptors choose to sacrifice a modern offense in order to build around a non-spacing C role player who does provide benefits to the defense.

With that sacrifice, we still get to see Scottie work on individual skills like pull-up 3s, but that's pretty much the limit of growth we can do with management's poor team building and role definition.

The good news if we get a Durant like trade, I'm pretty sure it'll be built around RJ/Jak, leading to crunch time lineups like this:

Barnes
Durant
BI
Ochai
IQ

At least we'll get to see a modern offense with proper roles. Until that happens, there is no real fix to the team's offense/efficiency unless Barnes turns into a Paul George like sniper.

There is no real evidence to suggest better spacing would help Scottie make some quantum leap in his game. He has no elite tools offensively, you simply can't build an entire offense around someone like that. There's 2 non shooters in the entire league that could have teams built around them and that's Giannis and Zion. Scottie does not get to the rim or FT line anywhere close to either of them.

[TorontoBarneys]

Can't even crack 20 PPG on 53% TS.

Not sure what there is to discuss. He's not offensively talented at all.

[sidsid]

He does not do everything well. This is crazy talk. He’s a good creator for others but there is no evidence he can run an actual good NBA offense. Do people not realize how damaging a player with 26% usage on 53% TS is? 25% of your offense when Barnes is on the floor is just flat out bad because of him. He doesn’t provide spacing and he’s not a good screener. He doesn’t get the rim or draw fouls. His best scoring skill (midrange) is the least valuable type of scoring for a team because it provides no spacing and it doesn’t draw fouls.

I don’t know if people are blinded by homerism but if Barnes were not a Raptor his long term role on a good team would be in question. His shooting either needs to get much better or he needs to be able to play C more. Non spacing defensive pf’s aren’t that valuable. I hope his scoring game improves but the excuses being made for the guy are crazy.

To anyone who thinks current Barnes is good: who is his contemporary (in play style) who has actually contributed to a winning team? Who are these inefficient, non-spacing PF’s who are making an impact around the league?

(I say all of this as someone who wants the best for Barnes but we have to be realistic about how he’s performing this year and what that could mean for the future)

I'll get to the why after. A mixture of role and fit/playstyle would be Sabonis and Giannis. Scottie's strengths are as a hub.

Sabonis, who is a PF in spite of where he plays, can't defend, but he plays C because if he has a non-spacing C next to him the offense, not just his, will die (not a choice the Raptors have to make as Barnes is turning into a great help defender). The Kings choose to live with it and try to have a modern offense.

Giannis is a force who already has playoff teams selling out on him in the paint regardless of spacing, but that's at the expense of giving up 3s to his 4 shooters, including his spacing C. If they didn't have 4 shooters it would be much easier to turn the water off completely to their offense.

The Raptors choose to sacrifice a modern offense in order to build around a non-spacing C role player who does provide benefits to the defense.

With that sacrifice, we still get to see Scottie work on individual skills like pull-up 3s, but that's pretty much the limit of growth we can do with management's poor team building and role definition.

The good news if we get a Durant like trade, I'm pretty sure it'll be built around RJ/Jak, leading to crunch time lineups like this:

Barnes
Durant
BI
Ochai
IQ

At least we'll get to see a modern offense with proper roles. Until that happens, there is no real fix to the team's offense/efficiency unless Barnes turns into a Paul George like sniper.

Barnes hasn't shown the ability to operate like Sabonis or Giannis.

Sabonis vs Barnes

-Sabonis might be the best screen in the league. He averages the most screen assists in the league (6.1 per game). Barnes screening has always been lacking and his screen assists bare this out (Barnes averages 0.8 screen assists per game, currently tied with FVV and Tim Hardaway Jr)

-Barnes is not near the rebounder Sabonis is. Sabonis is a top 5 rebounder in the league (19.8 reb%). Barnes averages 11.1 reb% (149th in the league)

Barnes does not do the "big man" things that we associate with successful non-floor spacing centers. He hasn't shown the ability to play like Sabonis. Barnes has shown some ability as a roll-man but that will mean much more screening, which he isn't really adept at.

Giannis vs Barnes

-while both lack outside shooting Giannis is one of the best players in history at getting to the rim and drawing fouls. Giannis leads the league in rim attempts (12.5 per game) and shoots a ridiculous 72% within 5ft. Barnes takes 4.6 rim attempts and makes them at league average (~63%)

-Giannis has shown he can operate as an elite rim protector when shifted to the 5. Maybe Barnes can there but he hasn't shown it yet

-Giannis has a career .520 free throw rate. That is elite. Barnes draws free throws at almost half the rate of Giannis

Giannis is one of the most relentless rim attackers in NBA history. Barnes does not have his size (compared to Giannis) or ability to get to the rim. Barnes has not shown the ball handling necessary to consistently attack the rim or the ability to draw fouls.

Barnes would have to make massive improvements across multiple areas of his game to get to Sabonis or Giannis levels. I don't believe he'll ever be able to reach near Giannis levels in terms of getting to the rim or drawing fouls. To play like Sabonis he would have to rapidly change the way he plays (pretty much make unprecedented jumps in screening and rebounding). At the rate he is going Barnes needs to develop an outside shot because nothing else except midrange is really working. If he could protect the rim at a high level as a small ball C (or next to a spacing 5) then he could contribute. Right now it's not looking great. Yes, your solution of trading for one of the best players of all-time (Durant) would make us much better but the odds of that are extremely low and shouldn't be counted on as a solution long-term.

We've been using Scottie as a mixture of a PG and utility creator. In part because he wants to do those things, and in the other because Jak occupies the role in the offense he'd be more suited to for a good portion of his time on the floor. Even in the Nurse days he was guarding PGs while Siakam was the pivot while watching everyone play iso ball on the other end. He steadily got better at the help aspects of the game whenever he wasn't the POA defender (i.e., when his role in the defense changed).

There is of course work and development to do in these areas, but you can't actively work on the dynamics of this role if you don't occupy it. We can start comparing his numbers with Sabonis when Scottie doesn't spend the majority of the game behind the 3pt line watching Jak initiate all the motion action and with some spacing.

I'm looking forward to it if it ever happens, and I'll take my chances with him over a zero on defense in Sabonis when meaningful playoff games come around.

[canada_dry]

With stat inflation...

What does 20 ppg today look like in 2006?

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[tsherkin]

With stat inflation...

What does 20 ppg today look like in 2006?

Probably about 20 ppg. Scottie's only taking 16.7 FGA/g, and he isn't really racking it up in transition, so the change in tempo isn't a big deal. And he's only playing 34.4 mpg, which means he isn't actually crushing minutes or anything to get there.

[ConSarnit]

I'll get to the why after. A mixture of role and fit/playstyle would be Sabonis and Giannis. Scottie's strengths are as a hub.

Sabonis, who is a PF in spite of where he plays, can't defend, but he plays C because if he has a non-spacing C next to him the offense, not just his, will die (not a choice the Raptors have to make as Barnes is turning into a great help defender). The Kings choose to live with it and try to have a modern offense.

Giannis is a force who already has playoff teams selling out on him in the paint regardless of spacing, but that's at the expense of giving up 3s to his 4 shooters, including his spacing C. If they didn't have 4 shooters it would be much easier to turn the water off completely to their offense.

The Raptors choose to sacrifice a modern offense in order to build around a non-spacing C role player who does provide benefits to the defense.

With that sacrifice, we still get to see Scottie work on individual skills like pull-up 3s, but that's pretty much the limit of growth we can do with management's poor team building and role definition.

The good news if we get a Durant like trade, I'm pretty sure it'll be built around RJ/Jak, leading to crunch time lineups like this:

Barnes
Durant
BI
Ochai
IQ

At least we'll get to see a modern offense with proper roles. Until that happens, there is no real fix to the team's offense/efficiency unless Barnes turns into a Paul George like sniper.

Barnes hasn't shown the ability to operate like Sabonis or Giannis.

Sabonis vs Barnes

-Sabonis might be the best screen in the league. He averages the most screen assists in the league (6.1 per game). Barnes screening has always been lacking and his screen assists bare this out (Barnes averages 0.8 screen assists per game, currently tied with FVV and Tim Hardaway Jr)

-Barnes is not near the rebounder Sabonis is. Sabonis is a top 5 rebounder in the league (19.8 reb%). Barnes averages 11.1 reb% (149th in the league)

Barnes does not do the "big man" things that we associate with successful non-floor spacing centers. He hasn't shown the ability to play like Sabonis. Barnes has shown some ability as a roll-man but that will mean much more screening, which he isn't really adept at.

Giannis vs Barnes

-while both lack outside shooting Giannis is one of the best players in history at getting to the rim and drawing fouls. Giannis leads the league in rim attempts (12.5 per game) and shoots a ridiculous 72% within 5ft. Barnes takes 4.6 rim attempts and makes them at league average (~63%)

-Giannis has shown he can operate as an elite rim protector when shifted to the 5. Maybe Barnes can there but he hasn't shown it yet

-Giannis has a career .520 free throw rate. That is elite. Barnes draws free throws at almost half the rate of Giannis

Giannis is one of the most relentless rim attackers in NBA history. Barnes does not have his size (compared to Giannis) or ability to get to the rim. Barnes has not shown the ball handling necessary to consistently attack the rim or the ability to draw fouls.

Barnes would have to make massive improvements across multiple areas of his game to get to Sabonis or Giannis levels. I don't believe he'll ever be able to reach near Giannis levels in terms of getting to the rim or drawing fouls. To play like Sabonis he would have to rapidly change the way he plays (pretty much make unprecedented jumps in screening and rebounding). At the rate he is going Barnes needs to develop an outside shot because nothing else except midrange is really working. If he could protect the rim at a high level as a small ball C (or next to a spacing 5) then he could contribute. Right now it's not looking great. Yes, your solution of trading for one of the best players of all-time (Durant) would make us much better but the odds of that are extremely low and shouldn't be counted on as a solution long-term.

We've been using Scottie as a mixture of a PG and utility creator. In part because he wants to do those things, and in the other because Jak occupies the role in the offense he'd be more suited to for a good portion of his time on the floor. Even in the Nurse days he was guarding PGs while Siakam was the pivot while watching everyone play iso ball on the other end. He steadily got better at the help aspects of the game whenever he wasn't the POA defender (i.e., when his role in the defense changed).

There is of course work and development to do in these areas, but you can't actively work on the dynamics of this role if you don't occupy it. We can start comparing his numbers with Sabonis when Scottie doesn't spend the majority of the game behind the 3pt line watching Jak initiate all the motion action and with some spacing.

I'm looking forward to it if it ever happens, and I'll take my chances with him over a zero on defense in Sabonis when meaningful playoff games come around.

We’ve seen him play C in lineups. He’s just not a good screener. You can see it on the floor, regardless of how often he’s setting screens. It’s a skill and he doesn’t really have it.

Some on this board make it seem like Barnes has been some low usage role player for his entire career. We’ve seen him in plenty of roles. We’ve seen no indication that he can play a traditional C role.

Apparently Barnes is just some low usage role player yet he happens to lead the team in touches and is second in elbow and paint touches. Barnes is LITERALLY top 50 in the league in elbow touches.

[tsherkin]

We’ve seen him play C in lineups. He’s just not a good screener. You can see it on the floor, regardless of how often he’s setting screens. It’s a skill and he doesn’t really have it.

That's a skill he could learn easily enough if we made of it an emphasis. It doesn't take much, not with his build.

Apparently Barnes is just some low usage role player yet he happens to lead the team in touches and is second in elbow and paint touches. Barnes is LITERALLY top 50 in the league in elbow touches.

Yeah, he ISN'T low-usage. He just SHOULD be, without some marked changes to his shot/setup diet. He's had plenty of chances to grow as a scoring threat.