The Tank Debate Thread

[Rhettmatic]

I obviously don't agree with Chisholm. You obviously do.

Not sure how this is going to end up any different than every single other thread we've had debating whether or not to tank.

[ishoy123]

Yet another tank vs no-tank, is-derozan-a-scrub thread

[IvanIV]

Do you agree with Chrisholm? Was Masai in a tough spot to tank immediately given what he inherited? Is he too opportunistic and shrewd a negotiator to accept a trade to get worse where the exchange rate on what he's sending out is horrible?

I think there has always been a consensus that, as we're currently constructed, the Raptors are nowhere near set up for tanking.

[Rhettmatic]

I'm just going to bump this since certain posters seemingly can't get enough.

[Edwardo]

We can all thank BC for crippling us. At least if he hadn't made the Rudy Gay trade, it would've been much easier.

yup and imagine no Lowry deal either. We'd be set up quite nicely going into the tank year, with already having the likes of Harrison Barnes or Lillard rather than Ross.

[RaptorNews]

We can all thank BC for crippling us. At least if he hadn't made the Rudy Gay trade, it would've been much easier.

yup and imagine no Lowry deal either. We'd be set up quite nicely going into the tank year.

Yep

[Fairview4Life]

He's only in a tough spot to tank if he wants value for our assets or doesn't believe the value in tanking can outweigh the loss in value of trading Gay for CV and Stuckey, for example.

[Indeed]

Not tanking, but not into the playoffs.
Without enough shooters in the starting lineup, I wonder how we are to surround Jonas.

[hankscorpioLA]

I've been saying this for months.

That trade not only dramatically increased our talent base, it did so by adding one very large contract that is extremely difficult to move.

And its not just that move that did it.

Signing Landry Fields
Trading a pick for Lowry
Extending Derozan
Acquiring Gay

If we hadn't done those moves (and assume we either S&T Derozan or let him walk) we would be significantly under the cap this year, we would have already added a draft pick from this year, and we would be in an excellent position to tank the season.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The Raptors most certainly are set-up to tank, and it's an absolute lie to say that they aren't. Philadelphia and Boston both came into the off-season at the same or better level than the Raptors. They knew what they wanted out of the draft and went out and got it and set themselves up for the next draft as well. Doesn't mean they'll be better off for it, but they didn't dither and didn't hedge.

It's possible that MLSE is putting pressure on Ujiri to compete and retain Casey, but the simplest answer is that Ujiri probably has an ego big enough to believe he can win a championship going a different route.

[J-Roc]

Firstly, you have Jonas Valanciunas locked-in as the closest thing the club has to a young franchise player, and he’s probably already better than any young assets in Orlando, Charlotte, Phoenix and Milwaukee. Secondly, you have a club that appears motivated to at least start the season with Rudy Gay flanking him, and despite his warts Gay is more talented than anyone on most of the expected tanking candidates. Thirdly, you have a coach on a one-year contract that you would have a very hard time convincing to make tanking-based decisions, especially if 2011-12 is any example.

Firstly, one good young player isn't going to preclude you from being bad.

Secondly, the club didn't need to be motivated to keep Gay.

Thirdly, you don't need to convince a lame duck coach of anything.

[sanity]

Valanciunas put up 9/6 last season. I think people are reeeeally reaching with the franchise-player talk. He'll be very good eventually (he's good already), but this team will still suck if he's our best player next season.

Trading Gay is as easy as looking for expiring contracts. Plenty of Ed Davis-value types floating around the league. DeRozan as well. Masai obviously isn't approaching the fire-sale notion until he knows where the team is at, which is impossible to gauge at present time. Considering he tried to trade for Holiday means its kind of obvious he isn't afraid of dealing major cogs of this team---he already banished Lazyniani.

[HSOB SIRHC]

Sign Gay to a 4 year deal. At the end of the 4th year, Sign Wiggins who, by then, will be one of the best players in the league.

[E-TRAK]

Tanking is to be discussed only during the 2nd half of the season. No team starts the season actually giving up games.
What's interesting is Casey is a lame duck, if he agrres to tank , hell ruin his chances for another job.

[hankscorpioLA]

The Raptors most certainly are set-up to tank, and it's an absolute lie to say that they aren't. Philadelphia and Boston both came into the off-season at the same or better level than the Raptors. They knew what they wanted out of the draft and went out and got it and set themselves up for the next draft as well. Doesn't mean they'll be better off for it, but they didn't dither and didn't hedge.

Isn't that basically what Colangelo was known for? Making lots of moves just for the sake of making moves?

Masai has a specific approach that is exactly the same approach he took in Denver.

A lot of fans and media in Denver were frustrated with Masai for taking so long with the Carmelo deal - but in the end it worked out in his favor.

What you are asking is for Masai to completely change his personality and management style - which is the reason why we hired him.

It's possible that MLSE is putting pressure on Ujiri to compete and retain Casey, but the simplest answer is that Ujiri probably has an ego big enough to believe he can win a championship going a different route.

You really like making these assumptions.

[SwaggWagg]

No **** Sherlock. Chisholm loves to state the obvious.

[TheDoctor]

I've been saying this for months.

That trade not only dramatically increased our talent base, it did so by adding one very large contract that is extremely difficult to move.

And its not just that move that did it.

Signing Landry Fields
Trading a pick for Lowry
Extending Derozan
Acquiring Gay

If we hadn't done those moves (and assume we either S&T Derozan or let him walk) we would be significantly under the cap this year, we would have already added a draft pick from this year, and we would be in an excellent position to tank the season.

Yup. BC's entire last year was like building a firewall around a tanking strategy.

If we went into this offseason with:

- being badly out of the playoff hunt in February, instead of March
- Jose expiring
- DeMar RFA
- James Johnson RFA
- no Landry

probably let Casey walk,

then made the Bargs deal:

C: Val/Gray
PF: Ed/Amir/Acy
SF: Novak/(Kleiza)
SG: Ross
PG:

+ one more draft pick in the range of:

Burke/McLemore/McCollum/Adetokoubo... or maybe even higher?

with the picks coming in from the Bargs trade

Then we'd be set up right there with the best of the tankers.

It would have taken the perfect deals since Masai took over to get anywhere close to that kind of tanking setup.


Don't get me wrong, I like some of the assets we have, on the court. And don't think the Lowry or Gay deals were bad, individually. But they went in the opposite direction from tanking, which makes Chisholm's points about the current roster reasonably valid. And which is why so many pro-tankers were livid with just about every deal BC made or handed out last year.

Also, given that the only immediate tank deal of this offseason was the Jrue for Noel trade, its not like we missed out on moving Gay or Lowry or DeMar where someone else made that move already... unless you want Greivis Vasquez for DeMar, and New Orleans liked that better than Tyreke. And who knows, in the scenario above maybe we move DeMar in a S+T. Or sign him for a little less than BC did.

[hankscorpioLA]

Sign Gay to a 4 year deal. At the end of the 4th year, Sign Wiggins who, by then, will be one of the best players in the league.

Wiggins will be an RFA at the end of his 4th year.

Do you really think whoever drafts him is going to let him walk?

[TheDoctor]

Tanking is to be discussed only during the 2nd half of the season. No team starts the season actually giving up games.
What's interesting is Casey is a lame duck, if he agrres to tank , hell ruin his chances for another job.

No team takes a maybe playoff team and pulls it apart in between the draft and the start of the season, no.

Usually there's a spur like a star-player trade demand (Dwight)/leaving/team getting old (Boston)/loving a particular prospect to build around (Jrue-Noel I guess, though the Bynum injury and departure for nothing was obviously a big part).

We didn't have any of those automatic reasons. We just have the draw of Wiggins and the intellectual case for tanking. And a moderately tough starting position because of BC's last year of work.

[cookieman]

I don't think you can make excuses for Masai. If he wanted to, he could have moved Lowry for the Dallas #13 pick and possibly a future first (or 2 seconds). Pick Schroeder, start him all year. Dump Gay's big ticket for whatever. Many of us wanted to see something like that.

As ATL points out, seemingly less tank-friendly teams got it done while we did not. Let's not spread BS that Ujiri was forced into a non-tanking corner.