OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread

[mtcan]

Today.

821 cases on only 24,000 tests ??

Should this not be alarming that we were still at the 800 mark with only half the tests done ?

Am I missing something here ?

We should just test less. That way we won't see 800 cases a day.

[Clay Davis]

So... we close gyms and indoor dining but are still at over 800 cases per day? When do we start seeing the ramifications of these measures? Who's going to get blamed next? Pizzamen? Rappers? International students?

[Fairview4Life]

So... we close gyms and indoor dining but are still at over 800 cases per day? When do we start seeing the ramifications of these measures? Who's going to get blamed next? Pizzamen? Rappers? International students?

You, specifically.

[ItsDanger]

If you have 6000 cases a week and cannot provide more preliminary source detail, I suggest the government is incompetent.

[Clay Davis]

So... we close gyms and indoor dining but are still at over 800 cases per day? When do we start seeing the ramifications of these measures? Who's going to get blamed next? Pizzamen? Rappers? International students?

You, specifically.

I blame you, specifically, since I spent the last 10 minutes trying to find that Chuckie Akenz music video where he's chilling with his homies outside Fairview mall

EDIT: Nevermind... of course it was the Jane and Finch mall

Watch on YouTube

Yo imagine if you were in the comments section of YouTube back in 2005 hyping the Raptors, saying we're gonna win the chip 14 years from now then get hit with an epidemic that **** the entire province.

Lifes crazy man.

[Kevin Willis]

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

This was the study that Rand Paul was referring to:

Objective The aim of this study was to compare the efficacy of cloth masks to medical masks in hospital healthcare workers (HCWs). The null hypothesis is that there is no difference between medical masks and cloth masks.

Setting 14 secondary-level/tertiary-level hospitals in Hanoi, Vietnam.

Participants 1607 hospital HCWs aged ≥18 years working full-time in selected high-risk wards.

Intervention Hospital wards were randomised to: medical masks, cloth masks or a control group (usual practice, which included mask wearing). Participants used the mask on every shift for 4 consecutive weeks.

Main outcome measure Clinical respiratory illness (CRI), influenza-like illness (ILI) and laboratory-confirmed respiratory virus infection.

Results The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm. An analysis by mask use showed ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) were significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group. Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

"cloth mask" is a very vague description. What materials are the masks made of? I think this is more important in determining it's effectiveness.

Watch on YouTube

;t=11s&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell

23:18
This man tests 3 different cloth masks and clearly they vary in effectiveness.

And I don't really see the point in comparing cloth masks to medical grade masks. Obviously medical grade masks are more effective. Cloth masks are more effective than no masks at all so what's your point?

- There are many studies that show the limited effectiveness of cloth masks when it comes to filtering.
- Other studies show that most people aren't wearing the masks properly
- There are no studies that show how many people have their cloth masks machine-washed after daily use. If there were, my guess would be that the number would be extremely low.
- The CDC study showed that 3/4 of the people in their study that were infect always wear masks

People like to look at only one aspect of the cloth mask to base their conclusion on which is pretty silly to me. You need to look overall picture and take everything into account that is relevant. As I've mentioned repeatedly, masks are deemed be somewhat effective in a vacuum but in the real world scenario, are they really? The stats do not show it, especially where people wearing mostly cloth masks.

You seem like a smart guy, your arguments come from research base and you have understanding of the human anatomy as a trainer. But to simplify you're arguing that what we're doing is not perfect - wearing a cloth mask, closing down businesses, etc. That is true. Cloth masks have limits. People don't wear it properly. People don't sanitize it properly. Gyms can be run successfully without people getting infected. But the other argument is simply if more people do preventative measures the better chance we have on getting through this until we find a vaccine or cure.

Both can be right and both can be wrong. One side can say any measure is better than no measure, especially if done as a collection of measure by everybody. The other side can say there is a better way than what we're doing right now, why don't we do this instead because it might be more effective. Last couple of pages are circle arguments where there is no resolution. Cloth masks are not perfect but they can be effective. Gyms can be run effectivey but if it spreads, it can easily be a super spreader event. It's almost more effective instead of discussing what is wrong with everything to discuss what may be right for a democratic Ontario with a cold winter. What is the optimal solution instead of what's not perfect.

I will go back and eat my popcorn.

[Basketball_Jones]

So... we close gyms and indoor dining but are still at over 800 cases per day? When do we start seeing the ramifications of these measures? Who's going to get blamed next? Pizzamen? Rappers? International students?

You, specifically.

I blame you, specifically, since I spent the last 10 minutes trying to find that Chuckie Akenz music video where he's chilling with his homies outside Fairview mall

EDIT: Nevermind... of course it was the Jane and Finch mall

Watch on YouTube

Yo imagine if you were in the comments section of YouTube back in 2005 hyping the Raptors, saying we're gonna win the chip 14 years from now then get hit with an epidemic that **** the entire province.

Lifes crazy man.

lolol never heard of Chuckie Akenz that dude was Toronto famous? Maaaaan. I feel like I missed out. I mean, first bar already he drops the N word, stoopid like the asian Tekashi 69.

[execoftheyear]

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

This was the study that Rand Paul was referring to:

Objective The aim of this study was to compare the efficacy of cloth masks to medical masks in hospital healthcare workers (HCWs). The null hypothesis is that there is no difference between medical masks and cloth masks.

Setting 14 secondary-level/tertiary-level hospitals in Hanoi, Vietnam.

Participants 1607 hospital HCWs aged ≥18 years working full-time in selected high-risk wards.

Intervention Hospital wards were randomised to: medical masks, cloth masks or a control group (usual practice, which included mask wearing). Participants used the mask on every shift for 4 consecutive weeks.

Main outcome measure Clinical respiratory illness (CRI), influenza-like illness (ILI) and laboratory-confirmed respiratory virus infection.

Results The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm. An analysis by mask use showed ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) were significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group. Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

"cloth mask" is a very vague description. What materials are the masks made of? I think this is more important in determining it's effectiveness.

Watch on YouTube

;t=11s&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell

23:18
This man tests 3 different cloth masks and clearly they vary in effectiveness.

And I don't really see the point in comparing cloth masks to medical grade masks. Obviously medical grade masks are more effective. Cloth masks are more effective than no masks at all so what's your point?

- There are many studies that show the limited effectiveness of cloth masks when it comes to filtering.
- Other studies show that most people aren't wearing the masks properly
- There are no studies that show how many people have their cloth masks machine-washed after daily use. If there were, my guess would be that the number would be extremely low.
- The CDC study showed that 3/4 of the people in their study that were infect always wear masks

People like to look at only one aspect of the cloth mask to base their conclusion on which is pretty silly to me. You need to look overall picture and take everything into account that is relevant. As I've mentioned repeatedly, masks are deemed be somewhat effective in a vacuum but in the real world scenario, are they really? The stats do not show it, especially where people wearing mostly cloth masks.

I'd like to see a study on those people that were infected while wearing masks that shows whether they were asymptomatic, had mild symptoms or had severe symptoms because there's plenty of studies that show viral load is a big factor to consider when it comes to an individual's experience when contracting a virus and having something that covers your face will no doubt reduce that amount upon initial transmission (with some materials obviously more effective than others).

Masks are like any other protective equipment. When you wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle, does this prevent you from getting a head injury? No, but it can significantly reduce the impact and can be the difference between a fatal injury vs a less severe injury. If the rider doesn't wear the helmet properly would you all of a sudden blame the helmet for the head injury and come to the conclusion that all helmets don't work?

Same with masks. Does it prevent you from getting a virus? No, but it can be the difference between having mild to no symptoms vs a more severe case because it can reduce the amount of viral particles you take in (filtration effectiveness obviously depending on the material the mask is made out of). And obviously proper mask handling/usage can affect the effectiveness but this is more on the user rather than the mask itself.

[Westside Gunn]

You, specifically.

I blame you, specifically, since I spent the last 10 minutes trying to find that Chuckie Akenz music video where he's chilling with his homies outside Fairview mall

EDIT: Nevermind... of course it was the Jane and Finch mall

Watch on YouTube

Yo imagine if you were in the comments section of YouTube back in 2005 hyping the Raptors, saying we're gonna win the chip 14 years from now then get hit with an epidemic that **** the entire province.

Lifes crazy man.

lolol never heard of Chuckie Akenz that dude was Toronto famous? Maaaaan. I feel like I missed out. I mean, first bar already he drops the N word, stoopid like the asian Tekashi 69.

jnf rappers had some heat when gangsta rap was a thing. c4 was my favourite

now suburbanite rap is taking over

[Clay Davis]

You, specifically.

I blame you, specifically, since I spent the last 10 minutes trying to find that Chuckie Akenz music video where he's chilling with his homies outside Fairview mall

EDIT: Nevermind... of course it was the Jane and Finch mall

Watch on YouTube

Yo imagine if you were in the comments section of YouTube back in 2005 hyping the Raptors, saying we're gonna win the chip 14 years from now then get hit with an epidemic that **** the entire province.

Lifes crazy man.

lolol never heard of Chuckie Akenz that dude was Toronto famous? Maaaaan. I feel like I missed out. I mean, first bar already he drops the N word, stoopid like the asian Tekashi 69.

It was a different time bro!

[13th Man]

"cloth mask" is a very vague description. What materials are the masks made of? I think this is more important in determining it's effectiveness.

Watch on YouTube

;t=11s&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell

23:18
This man tests 3 different cloth masks and clearly they vary in effectiveness.

And I don't really see the point in comparing cloth masks to medical grade masks. Obviously medical grade masks are more effective. Cloth masks are more effective than no masks at all so what's your point?

- There are many studies that show the limited effectiveness of cloth masks when it comes to filtering.
- Other studies show that most people aren't wearing the masks properly
- There are no studies that show how many people have their cloth masks machine-washed after daily use. If there were, my guess would be that the number would be extremely low.
- The CDC study showed that 3/4 of the people in their study that were infect always wear masks

People like to look at only one aspect of the cloth mask to base their conclusion on which is pretty silly to me. You need to look overall picture and take everything into account that is relevant. As I've mentioned repeatedly, masks are deemed be somewhat effective in a vacuum but in the real world scenario, are they really? The stats do not show it, especially where people wearing mostly cloth masks.

I'd like to see a study on those people that were infected while wearing masks that shows whether they were asymptomatic, had mild symptoms or had severe symptoms because there's plenty of studies that show viral load is a big factor to consider when it comes to an individual's experience when contracting a virus and having something that covers your face will no doubt reduce that amount upon initial transmission (with some materials obviously more effective than others).

Masks are like any other protective equipment. When you wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle, does this prevent you from getting a head injury? No, but it can significantly reduce the impact and can be the difference between a fatal injury vs a less severe injury. If the rider doesn't wear the helmet properly would you all of a sudden blame the helmet for the head injury and come to the conclusion that all helmets don't work?

Same with masks. Does it prevent you from getting a virus? No, but it can be the difference between having mild to no symptoms vs a more severe case because it can reduce the amount of viral particles you take in (filtration effectiveness obviously depending on the material the mask is made out of). And obviously proper mask handling/usage can affect the effectiveness but this is more on the user rather than the mask itself.

I'm not saying that masks don't work. I wear the cheap blue medical ones that you can buy from Costco and throw them out after every use of up to 4 hrs. At one time I even bought into the hype and got a 3-pack of Adidas cloth masks but have not used them since I know of all the risks that come from wearing cloth masks from poor filtration to a tendency of re-using more than once before throwing into the laundry. If you just want a quick prop to satisfy regulation while running in to pick up some food then sure but I believe that cloth masks do more harm than good overall. This one-way protection theory is also BS imo, but that's a different topic on it's own.

I don't agree with the bike helmet analogy as there is really only one way of wearing a bike helmet or putting on a seatbelt. Unless it's a crappy bike helmet that does not satisfy any safety standards then maybe that could compare to wearing cloth masks.

I think the mistake of the WHO and CDC came early when they were telling everybody not to wear masks due to the shortage of N95 masks. Then once that theory was exposed as BS, they said ok and came out with some guidelines for wearing cheap home-made masks knowing that these are better than nothing in a vacuum. Everyone went out and got cloth masks since they are cheaper than buying disposable ones but not realizing how ineffective they really are in real world conditions.

[JJWong17]

how are things looking on the employment front?

I've been laid off for a while now and i dont think things will get any better. i'm ****.

Still getting CERB/EI?

EI

id rather be contributing....

I hear ya. Has your workplace opened back up but just haven't called you back or did they close for good? I was at a coffee shop before this and they're open but don't need nearly as much staff since they're only doing takeout right now. I dropped in to say hi and the manager said hopefully they'd extend hours a bit more and I'd be next to be called back. I don't really want to work at a grocery store because it feels a lot riskier than the setup they have at my old place

[Clay Davis]

Still getting CERB/EI?

EI

id rather be contributing....

I hear ya. Has your workplace opened back up but just haven't called you back or did they close for good? I was at a coffee shop before this and they're open but don't need nearly as much staff since they're only doing takeout right now. I dropped in to say hi and the manager said hopefully they'd extend hours a bit more and I'd be next to be called back. I don't really want to work at a grocery store because it feels a lot riskier than the setup they have at my old place

Best of luck broski things will shake up just fine, don't worry

[execoftheyear]

- There are many studies that show the limited effectiveness of cloth masks when it comes to filtering.
- Other studies show that most people aren't wearing the masks properly
- There are no studies that show how many people have their cloth masks machine-washed after daily use. If there were, my guess would be that the number would be extremely low.
- The CDC study showed that 3/4 of the people in their study that were infect always wear masks

People like to look at only one aspect of the cloth mask to base their conclusion on which is pretty silly to me. You need to look overall picture and take everything into account that is relevant. As I've mentioned repeatedly, masks are deemed be somewhat effective in a vacuum but in the real world scenario, are they really? The stats do not show it, especially where people wearing mostly cloth masks.

I'd like to see a study on those people that were infected while wearing masks that shows whether they were asymptomatic, had mild symptoms or had severe symptoms because there's plenty of studies that show viral load is a big factor to consider when it comes to an individual's experience when contracting a virus and having something that covers your face will no doubt reduce that amount upon initial transmission (with some materials obviously more effective than others).

Masks are like any other protective equipment. When you wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle, does this prevent you from getting a head injury? No, but it can significantly reduce the impact and can be the difference between a fatal injury vs a less severe injury. If the rider doesn't wear the helmet properly would you all of a sudden blame the helmet for the head injury and come to the conclusion that all helmets don't work?

Same with masks. Does it prevent you from getting a virus? No, but it can be the difference between having mild to no symptoms vs a more severe case because it can reduce the amount of viral particles you take in (filtration effectiveness obviously depending on the material the mask is made out of). And obviously proper mask handling/usage can affect the effectiveness but this is more on the user rather than the mask itself.

I'm not saying that masks don't work. I wear the cheap blue medical ones that you can buy from Costco and throw them out after every use of up to 4 hrs. At one time I even bought into the hype and got a 3-pack of Adidas cloth masks but have not used them since I know of all the risks that come from wearing cloth masks from poor filtration to a tendency of re-using more than once before throwing into the laundry. If you just want a quick prop to satisfy regulation while running in to pick up some food then sure but I believe that cloth masks do more harm than good overall. This one-way protection theory is also BS imo, but that's a different topic on it's own.

I don't agree with the bike helmet analogy as there is really only one way of wearing a bike helmet or putting on a seatbelt. Unless it's a crappy bike helmet that does not satisfy any safety standards then maybe that could compare to wearing cloth masks.

I think the mistake of the WHO and CDC came early when they were telling everybody not to wear masks due to the shortage of N95 masks. Then once that theory was exposed as BS, they said ok and came out with some guidelines for wearing cheap home-made masks knowing that these are better than nothing in a vacuum. Everyone went out and got cloth masks since they are cheaper than buying disposable ones but not realizing how ineffective they really are in real world conditions.

you're ignoring the other part of the analogy that assumes a bike helmet is worn correctly. There still isn't a guarantee that the helmet will prevent a head injury. But it can significantly reduce the severity of the injury by reducing the impact. Same with masks. There's no guarantee that a mask will prevent you from getting a virus but it can reduce the viral dose which can impact the severity of the symptoms one experiences.

There isn't only one way to wear a seat belt or bike helmet though.





You'd be surprised at the number of people who don't know how to properly wear a regular bicycle helmet.

It's equivalent to wearing an n95 mask upside down or low that it doesn't cover the nose.

There's a correct way of wearing one and what you're focusing on is the incorrect way of wearing one. Of course effectiveness will dramatically decrease if not worn correctly. If people weren't educated on how to wear a seatbelt correctly and wear it like the picture, of course their effectiveness will most likely dramatically decrease.

[execoftheyear]

- There are many studies that show the limited effectiveness of cloth masks when it comes to filtering.
- Other studies show that most people aren't wearing the masks properly
- There are no studies that show how many people have their cloth masks machine-washed after daily use. If there were, my guess would be that the number would be extremely low.
- The CDC study showed that 3/4 of the people in their study that were infect always wear masks

People like to look at only one aspect of the cloth mask to base their conclusion on which is pretty silly to me. You need to look overall picture and take everything into account that is relevant. As I've mentioned repeatedly, masks are deemed be somewhat effective in a vacuum but in the real world scenario, are they really? The stats do not show it, especially where people wearing mostly cloth masks.

I'd like to see a study on those people that were infected while wearing masks that shows whether they were asymptomatic, had mild symptoms or had severe symptoms because there's plenty of studies that show viral load is a big factor to consider when it comes to an individual's experience when contracting a virus and having something that covers your face will no doubt reduce that amount upon initial transmission (with some materials obviously more effective than others).

Masks are like any other protective equipment. When you wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle, does this prevent you from getting a head injury? No, but it can significantly reduce the impact and can be the difference between a fatal injury vs a less severe injury. If the rider doesn't wear the helmet properly would you all of a sudden blame the helmet for the head injury and come to the conclusion that all helmets don't work?

Same with masks. Does it prevent you from getting a virus? No, but it can be the difference between having mild to no symptoms vs a more severe case because it can reduce the amount of viral particles you take in (filtration effectiveness obviously depending on the material the mask is made out of). And obviously proper mask handling/usage can affect the effectiveness but this is more on the user rather than the mask itself.

I'm not saying that masks don't work. I wear the cheap blue medical ones that you can buy from Costco and throw them out after every use of up to 4 hrs. At one time I even bought into the hype and got a 3-pack of Adidas cloth masks but have not used them since I know of all the risks that come from wearing cloth masks from poor filtration to a tendency of re-using more than once before throwing into the laundry. If you just want a quick prop to satisfy regulation while running in to pick up some food then sure but I believe that cloth masks do more harm than good overall. This one-way protection theory is also BS imo, but that's a different topic on it's own.

I don't agree with the bike helmet analogy as there is really only one way of wearing a bike helmet or putting on a seatbelt. Unless it's a crappy bike helmet that does not satisfy any safety standards then maybe that could compare to wearing cloth masks.

I think the mistake of the WHO and CDC came early when they were telling everybody not to wear masks due to the shortage of N95 masks. Then once that theory was exposed as BS, they said ok and came out with some guidelines for wearing cheap home-made masks knowing that these are better than nothing in a vacuum. Everyone went out and got cloth masks since they are cheaper than buying disposable ones but not realizing how ineffective they really are in real world conditions.

I'm with you on that (WHO and CDC lying about masks) and I agree cloth masks should be a last resort compared to other masks. The bigger issue is the availability and cost of the better masks. It can be difficult to find them since they are in high demand and people like to hoard and some can't afford them especially when you start to consider bigger low-income families. In this case people are forced to go with the more available and affordable option in cloth masks which is still a better option than wearing no mask at all.

What I don't agree with is how you've tied cloth masks ineffectiveness to improper handling of a mask. You keep saying cloth masks don't work because people don't handle them properly. But this can be the case with any type of mask, not just cloth masks.

[Vaclac]

Some good news - we've gotten much better at treating this since the first wave with death rates among hospitalized patients dropping by 70% compared to the first wave. And according to this article thats actually happening across the age and condition distribution so its not just a matter of healthier people getting sick now.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/10/20/925441975/studies-point-to-big-drop-in-covid-19-death-rates

[JJWong17]

EI

id rather be contributing....

I hear ya. Has your workplace opened back up but just haven't called you back or did they close for good? I was at a coffee shop before this and they're open but don't need nearly as much staff since they're only doing takeout right now. I dropped in to say hi and the manager said hopefully they'd extend hours a bit more and I'd be next to be called back. I don't really want to work at a grocery store because it feels a lot riskier than the setup they have at my old place

Best of luck broski things will shake up just fine, don't worry

Thanks. I'm not really worried for myself, mostly just bored, but I do worry for my mom and a few other relatives that are pushing 70

[Mister Ze]

Bunch of clowns running the show.

[Kevin Willis]

You, specifically.

I blame you, specifically, since I spent the last 10 minutes trying to find that Chuckie Akenz music video where he's chilling with his homies outside Fairview mall

EDIT: Nevermind... of course it was the Jane and Finch mall

Watch on YouTube

Yo imagine if you were in the comments section of YouTube back in 2005 hyping the Raptors, saying we're gonna win the chip 14 years from now then get hit with an epidemic that **** the entire province.

Lifes crazy man.

lolol never heard of Chuckie Akenz that dude was Toronto famous? Maaaaan. I feel like I missed out. I mean, first bar already he drops the N word, stoopid like the asian Tekashi 69.

Never heard of them too but I do know not to mess with gangsta Viets. Also JnF is more mixed than it used to be. People don't realize that now.

Wow that's a nice diversion from COVID.

[Kingsway_fan]

"No sign of second wave' as ONS data shows normal level of deaths for time of year

People who would normally be expected to die of flu or pneumonia may instead be dying from Covid-19


There is no sign of a second coronavirus wave, experts have said as new Office for National Statistics (ONS) figures showed that deaths are just 1.5 per cent above the five-year average and tracking on a normal trajectory for the time of year..." UK...

But hey.. pumpers gonna pump

Don't watch canadian news.
Don't listen to canadian preacher politicians