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Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II

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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#781 » by ranger001 » Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:40 pm

dacrusha wrote:
ranger001 wrote:Why have the players won after decertification? The NFL decertified and they didn't win a thing. After desertification the lockout will continue.


I think the idea is that the players, after decertification, can then sue the league for running a monopoly and propagating unfair labor practices... and every other anti-trust violation that union-backed, collective bargaining currently shields the owners from.

Suing does not mean they have won anything except lawyers bills. The NFL union decertified and the players sued and won nothing. If decertifying was such a slam dunk they would have done it on day one. Anything can happen in court.

At the very least the lockout would continue and would be legal as the NFL court case showed.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#782 » by knickerbocker2k2 » Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:52 pm

ranger001 wrote:Both sides have to be afraid of a decertification. First of all the NLRB is going to block a decertification until the NBPA lawsuit before the NLRB is settled. The players then have to wait 45 days before the decertification vote. After decertification they would file an antitrust lawsuit. The lawsuit then has to be settled and it could take years. During this time they are losing salary.

The midlevel and lower level players are also going to lose salaries if the win the anti trust lawsuit, guys like Lebron will make more and everyone else less. I expect Hunter to fight the decertification.


If the players decertify this means this season is lost. They have about 12 months to sort out the official decertification and the courts. But in the end nothing can stop the players from decertifying.

The league in this scenario can't prevent players from playing next year. How can you lockout players that are not in union? This is unless they decide to close shop and liquidation their assets (do you see this happening?). So the question is what system takes place next season,

1) First thing NBA would decide is if the current contracts are void or not. NBA has threatened decertification would nullify all the contracts. My thinking is this is leverage to scare the players. Do you think most owners would allow this happen? Big markets would be able to retain their players (Kobe staying in LA, Big 3 in Miami, NY, Chicago). Do you think OKC would let Durant out of his contract? Do you think even cheap Sterling wants this so Griffin is FA? Even hardline Cleveland guy do you think he wants lose top 5 draft picks to the open market? How about Sarver losing his only asset in Nash. I think its bluff, but lets assume everyone is FA...

2) Next thing that would need to be sorted is the system in which the teams operate. One scenario is to operate in free market system where there are no restrictions on teams, and they can each operate independily of each other. Obviously in this scenario the big markets will rule the league.

3) Another scenario is in which the league sets its own system. Basically arbitrarily sets the rules such as what players will get as share of BRI, restrictions on FA, etc. This is very dangerous because this would be illegal under anti-trust law. At this point players would sue and although it would take couple of years (remember players would be still playing during this time), they would eventually win. The league would be on the hook for all the supposed loses (what players lose in salary because of this collusion among the owners, in addition to punitive damages ( I think figure I read was 3x). So in the end players would be paid billions in damages down the road. Owners know this so why take this risk?
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#783 » by jrsmith » Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:53 pm

The nbpa remind me of a really bad poker bluff. At some point your stupidity prevails and you have no choice but to go all in. Now, you can hope the opposition plays it safe, decides it's not worth it and folds... but most of the time you will be taken on a ride and stripped clean. Curious to see how this unfolds.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#784 » by ranger001 » Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:56 pm

knickerbocker2k2 wrote:
ranger001 wrote:Both sides have to be afraid of a decertification. First of all the NLRB is going to block a decertification until the NBPA lawsuit before the NLRB is settled. The players then have to wait 45 days before the decertification vote. After decertification they would file an antitrust lawsuit. The lawsuit then has to be settled and it could take years. During this time they are losing salary.

The midlevel and lower level players are also going to lose salaries if the win the anti trust lawsuit, guys like Lebron will make more and everyone else less. I expect Hunter to fight the decertification.


If the players decertify this means this season is lost. They have about 12 months to sort out the official decertification and the courts. But in the end nothing can stop the players from decertifying.

The league in this scenario can't prevent players from playing next year. How can you lockout players that are not in union?

Did you know that the NFL players decertified their union and the lockout continued?
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#785 » by Reignman » Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:57 pm

jrsmith wrote:The nbpa remind me of a really bad poker bluff. At some point your stupidity prevails and you have no choice but to go all in. Now, you can hope the opposition plays it safe, decides it's not worth it and folds... but most of the time you will be taken on a ride and stripped clean. Curious to see how this unfolds.


Good analogy but the PA can't be stupid enough to go that deep. The anti-trust lawyer probably gave them a wake up call.

Edit: The analogy is even better when you consider the owners are the poker players with the tall stack while the players have the short stack.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#786 » by I_Like_Dirt » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:01 pm

This isn't quite the same as a poker bluff, though. In order to strip the players clean, the owners also have to strip themselves clean. The owners won't win anything by calling this 'bluff,' same as the players. The owners entered negotiations with a proposal to slash player salaries by about 21% (which is what going fro 57% of BRI to 45% of BRI would represent) and now we're heaing that almost half of the owners are still unwilling to do any better than cutting salaries by about 17.5% (going from 7% to 47%)? Push that kind of bluff too long and eventually somebody calls you, and it appears the players are actually considering calling to the point where everybody loses except the very best players and the wealthiest of owners. And cumulatively, both teams have the same stacks in this analogy, reignman.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#787 » by Rhettmatic » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:05 pm

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Gathering of NBA owners on Saturday will deal as much with infighting on revenue sharing as it will system-BRI brawl with NBPA, sources say.


alanhahn Alan Hahn
NBA source suggests Jordan isn't just leveraging against players, but big market owners, too: Want a deal? Give more in revenue sharing.


Anyone surprised?
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#788 » by Reignman » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:11 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:This isn't quite the same as a poker bluff, though. In order to strip the players clean, the owners also have to strip themselves clean. The owners won't win anything by calling this 'bluff,' same as the players. The owners entered negotiations with a proposal to slash player salaries by about 21% (which is what going fro 57% of BRI to 45% of BRI would represent) and now we're heaing that almost half of the owners are still unwilling to do any better than cutting salaries by about 17.5% (going from 7% to 47%)? Push that kind of bluff too long and eventually somebody calls you, and it appears the players are actually considering calling to the point where everybody loses except the very best players and the wealthiest of owners. And cumulatively, both teams have the same stacks in this analogy, reignman.


But the owners aren't the ones calling that bluff. They don't want the union to decertify, they just want a system where the majority of teams can be financially viable. It's not too complicated. They opened their books, showed their losses and now they are trying to recoup.

The players just don't get that they prospered more than any other group of athletes in the world because the owners signed off on a CBA in 99 that wasn't viable. The owners are now correcting their mistake.

I like to refer to the pendulum effect. The players are going to get raped in this deal because the owners got raped in the last one. Once they sign this deal and the majority of teams start prospering (hopefully through a better BRI split, revenue sharing and a new system that improves competitive parity) then the pendulum will swing in the players favour (again).
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#789 » by ranger001 » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:12 pm

Rhettmatic wrote:
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Gathering of NBA owners on Saturday will deal as much with infighting on revenue sharing as it will system-BRI brawl with NBPA, sources say.


alanhahn Alan Hahn
NBA source suggests Jordan isn't just leveraging against players, but big market owners, too: Want a deal? Give more in revenue sharing.


Anyone surprised?

No but I don't blame him at all. There has to be more revenue sharing for the Bobcats to compete financially. Every game missed hurts the big market teams more than teams like the Hornets. So why not exert some leverage? If I were him I'd do the same thing.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#790 » by floppymoose » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:12 pm

Reignman wrote:The players already suck with managing their finances and you think they are going to last years (potentially) in the court system battling the league with anti-trust suits? LOL.


They don't have to last years. They don't even have to last until the court case starts. Owners will improve their offer before that to something the players can accept.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#791 » by Rhettmatic » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:12 pm

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Source tells @CBSSports that federal mediator George Cohen will oversee Saturday's labor talks. #Lockout
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#792 » by Reignman » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:13 pm

Rhettmatic wrote:
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Gathering of NBA owners on Saturday will deal as much with infighting on revenue sharing as it will system-BRI brawl with NBPA, sources say.


alanhahn Alan Hahn
NBA source suggests Jordan isn't just leveraging against players, but big market owners, too: Want a deal? Give more in revenue sharing.


Anyone surprised?


The small market teams are furious but I can't blame them. Can't make any money and can't keep any stars, I'd be **** pissed too if my only option was to sell while looking at a small group of owners and all the employees prospering like mad.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#793 » by floppymoose » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:14 pm

ranger001 wrote:No but I don't blame him at all. There has to be more revenue sharing for the Bobcats to compete financially. Every game missed hurts the big market teams more than teams like the Hornets. So why not exert some leverage? If I were him I'd do the same thing.


Hey ranger, at long last we agree on something! w00t!!! :-D
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#794 » by S.W.A.N » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:14 pm

Rhettmatic wrote:
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Gathering of NBA owners on Saturday will deal as much with infighting on revenue sharing as it will system-BRI brawl with NBPA, sources say.


alanhahn Alan Hahn
NBA source suggests Jordan isn't just leveraging against players, but big market owners, too: Want a deal? Give more in revenue sharing.


Anyone surprised?


Nope. One of the things that keeps getting thrown under the rug in hopes it gets ignored is fact that the owners do not have a revenue sharing agreement in place. The owners have been pushing it to the side trying to get as much from players as possible.

Now that the small market owners know where a deal is most likely to happen (50-51) they are saying 'wtf david, you promised us profits' that means robust revenue sharing.

The small market teams don't care where the money comes from they just want money. Big owners need to throw a little more into the pot and get this done.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#795 » by Rhettmatic » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:15 pm

ranger001 wrote:No but I don't blame him at all. There has to be more revenue sharing for the Bobcats to compete financially. Every game missed hurts the big market teams more than teams like the Hornets. So why not exert some leverage? If I were him I'd do the same thing.


I agree with you that the league's plan for revenue sharing is totally insufficient. (Actually, from glancing at the posts above, I think all of us agree on this, which must be a first?)
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#796 » by Reignman » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:17 pm

floppymoose wrote:
Reignman wrote:The players already suck with managing their finances and you think they are going to last years (potentially) in the court system battling the league with anti-trust suits? LOL.


They don't have to last years. They don't even have to last until the court case starts. Owners will improve their offer before that to something the players can accept.


If the owners were ok with 52.5% they'd have made the offer. They aren't and it seems that the majority of teams are ready to take this as far as they can.

When you have a majority of owners highly motivated to get what they want and they have the books to justify their demands.....I'll just say I feel sorry for the players if they go the decertification route.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#797 » by Ponchos » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:21 pm

Reignman wrote:
floppymoose wrote:
Reignman wrote:The players already suck with managing their finances and you think they are going to last years (potentially) in the court system battling the league with anti-trust suits? LOL.


They don't have to last years. They don't even have to last until the court case starts. Owners will improve their offer before that to something the players can accept.


If the owners were ok with 52.5% they'd have made the offer. They aren't and it seems that the majority of teams are ready to take this as far as they can.

When you have a majority of owners highly motivated to get what they want and they have the books to justify their demands.....I'll just say I feel sorry for the players if they go the decertification route.


The owners don't have to go to 52.5% to get a deal done.

This is a negotiation!!!

The owners have to show some movement towards the players. Then a deal can be reached.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#798 » by floppymoose » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:21 pm

Reignman wrote:
floppymoose wrote:
Reignman wrote:The players already suck with managing their finances and you think they are going to last years (potentially) in the court system battling the league with anti-trust suits? LOL.


They don't have to last years. They don't even have to last until the court case starts. Owners will improve their offer before that to something the players can accept.


If the owners were ok with 52.5% they'd have made the offer.


Why should they? It doesn't cost them that much to miss some games now. They still get the tv revenue even without any games, and if the whole season isn't lost then there shouldn't be too much long term fan impact. Make the players union show that they can get their act together and actually decertify before you improve your offer - that's what they are thinking.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#799 » by ranger001 » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:25 pm

floppymoose wrote:
ranger001 wrote:No but I don't blame him at all. There has to be more revenue sharing for the Bobcats to compete financially. Every game missed hurts the big market teams more than teams like the Hornets. So why not exert some leverage? If I were him I'd do the same thing.


Hey ranger, at long last we agree on something! w00t!!! :-D


Cool.

Now I have to wonder if I should rethink this. :D
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#800 » by Ponchos » Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:26 pm

ranger001 wrote:
floppymoose wrote:
ranger001 wrote:No but I don't blame him at all. There has to be more revenue sharing for the Bobcats to compete financially. Every game missed hurts the big market teams more than teams like the Hornets. So why not exert some leverage? If I were him I'd do the same thing.


Hey ranger, at long last we agree on something! w00t!!! :-D


Cool.

Now I have to wonder if I should rethink this. :D


You definitely should, as I agree with you as well.

A more ranger-like position would be: "The players need to accept 47% BRI, there's no way teams like New York and LA should have to bear the burden of small market teams. Every team on it's own should be profitable!!!!"

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