Fisher: Raptors are still shopping RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley

[deck]

I’m not out on RJ. I think he’s a great dude. I don’t believe he’s a good fit for the SL, so what I’m concerned about is shoving him in anyway. And I also feel there’s an overrated impact for scorers if they arent defenders. RJ is a leading scorer but flat in rpm. He was 54 ts% at 29% usage last year. Thats not a recipe to help win games. My thing with RJ is we seem to tip toe around him being a good scoring average player, or an all star part of the big 3. If he came off the bench or if our other pieces in the SL were different, I wouldn’t have much to say on it. I just don’t think it’s a good fit, in wonder why its treated like its set in stone. I think people realize Ochai would be a better fit, but Ochai is likely to even get consdiered for an extension this year because we have so much invested in drafting two recent SG's and he and seems like the forgotten guy when imo, he’s actually a good option for the SL if we want to actually compete.

Consider this from an asset management perspective though. Sending RJ to the bench likely means his contract becomes even less valuable than it is perceived today. And additionally, Ochai inserted into the starting lineup inflates his leverage going into contract negotiation.

I think the rationale for RJ staying in the starting line up makes some sense if viewed from this perspective. I don't see us meaningfully competing this year, so we should still be focused on trying to maintain or improve the value of the players as much as possible. The trade off is limiting someone like Jakobe's playing time vs. cratering RJs value even further.

I don't see all of this set in stone though. Maybe they roll RJ in the SL until the trade deadline with the hope that we can move him then.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I know what you mean, but I think we need to give NBA front offices more credit.

And also with the SL he’s not above
BI - is he above IQ - Scottie where Poeltl is he option 3, 4 or 5? What’s that do to his reputation and skill set if he’s not get the volume to chip away to volume scoring. He’s essentially a role player now with the SL? Can he be a good one?

I know he can be a sixth man, and be allowed to play his game to try and boost value or start laying the foundation for a long term role here off the bench, and forget the Star J dreams.

I’m also not sure IQ is not better as a SG rather than a PG but for some reason they keep over investing there.

[ConSarnit]

The luxury of having IQ/RJ/BI/SB in the SL is you don’t have to go traditional NBA pecking order in terms of creation, and can instead be match up dependent and rely on good ball movement given all four of those guys can both create for themselves and others at a reasonably high level.

Darko’s system is also perfectly designed to play this way. It might take us a min to figure things out because it’s not going to look like we have an identity, but the identity is our ability to go to different guys on different nights and still get quality play making, which should make us much harder to guard in the long run.

I disagree that Darko’s system is perfect for us. What modern ball movement heavy teams have found success while getting zero spacing from the 4/5 and feature 1 guy (IQ) who is getting 3pt looks from off-ball screens? The only team who has been able to do it successfully while lacking well rounded shooting is the Warriors who have a cheat code in Curry.

If anything this team is better suited to play Nurse-ball than the actual Nurse ball teams. Hunting mis-matches because you have 4 guys who can create their own shot (ymmv on Barnes). Play a little more iso ball out of mismatches. Run more pnr. You don’t need good passing to hunt mismatches. Someone is going to be guarded by a weak defender as the default. Attack that in a pnr or iso using our multiple ball handlers.

Ball movement has not been shown to work with 2 (or maybe even 3 with RJ) bad/questionable shooters in the lineup. I don’t think an iso system would yield great results but I don’t think we have the right starter mix to pull off a successful ball movement system either.

I think the issue with this is we have very few iso players as well. What we do have are a bunch of guys who can pass, which fits Darko’s vision. Truthfully, when IQ and Poeltl have been healthy our offence has looked a lot better from the eye test. The problem of course is that IQ has not been very durable.

Yeah, our iso guys are also not great. Ingram is solid. IQ has had success at times. Barnes and RJ are bad.

I just don’t think having guys who can pass is enough. I think the spacing issues created by the Barnes/Poeltl pairing are going to limited cutting success (and of course our 3pt volume). Last year we were 3rd in cut frequency but 2nd worst in efficiency. I think Ingram is a more deliberate player who wants to get to his spots so I think it’s tbd on how he’ll do in terms of moving the ball quickly. Have some of the same concerns about IQ and RJ as they are largely creating out of their own offense as opposed to pinging the ball around Spurs style. The guys I have the most confidence in making the quick reads and moving the ball (Barnes and Poeltl) are also the guys causing issues with their lack of spacing.

I think we’d be better suited playing more traditional pnr. Last year we were bottom 4 in pnr frequency. Ingram and IQ are good pnr scorers. Jak/Barnes/CMB should be good roll men.

[CPT]

Either Agbaji provides spacing or he’s open for shots he can make at an efficient rate.

Both of those things seem good to me.

What am I missing here?

The argument is whether he provides better spacing than RJ.

He should.

Chances are all of this stuff is a bit over all of our heads in terms of what opposing coaching staffs choose to emphasize on the scouting report, but if we simplify it to “don’t leave him open” to “you can probably cheat off him” or even “try to get a hand up, but let him show he can make that shot,” RJ is probably closer to the latter, while Ochai should be in the “don’t leave him open” category. If he isn’t, he can continue to convert open shots at a high rate until he is.

They aren’t going to craft a defensive scheme to stop him, but he should be accounted for. RJ might get more actual attention, but most of it will start when he has the ball in his hands. That probably won’t be as common an occurrence this season.

[dballislife]

i cant think of one team that would want quick at 32 million over many years...can you???

[C_Money]

i cant think of one team that would want quick at 32 million over many years...can you???

That’s one of the reasons I’m not too concerned with Masai leaving. He just wasn’t the same guy from 2020 onwards.

[RoyceDa59]

Quickley with his contract has limited, if any, trade value so we have to make it work with him. He needs to stay healthy, play good defense and hit threes at a high clip.

[basketballto]

but it’ll do more than RJ is the entire conversation

No. A defender isn't guarding Agbaji tighter because he makes one ATB three every couple of games, or whatever it is. Teams aren't giving up inches for a couple of percentage points.

That is EXACTLY what defenses do

6% isn’t a “couple of percentage points”. That’s the difference between below average and upper echelon.

6% difference on 4 shots a game is an extra .7 points. If RJ shot 80% on free throws he would add .9 points per game. Doesn't put him into the upper echelons but if his true shooting went up 6% he would add 2.26 more points per game. That's putting him into the upper echelon. If he did all three and had lockdown defense he would be a max player.

[hyper316]

I love RJ as a player, but RJ poor ft shooting stems from his form. He starts his shot pocket so low, too much movement on his form. Surprised none of his coaches fixed that

[Dennis 37]

I know what you mean, but I think we need to give NBA front offices more credit.

And also with the SL he’s not above
BI - is he above IQ - Scottie where Poeltl is he option 3, 4 or 5? What’s that do to his reputation and skill set if he’s not get the volume to chip away to volume scoring. He’s essentially a role player now with the SL? Can he be a good one?

I know he can be a sixth man, and be allowed to play his game to try and boost value or start laying the foundation for a long term role here off the bench, and forget the Star J dreams.

I’m also not sure IQ is not better as a SG rather than a PG but for some reason they keep over investing there.

Scottie was terrible on the offence in that Nuggets game. In fact the whole starting lineup was really bad at the team game. Individually, especially BI. did well, but as a group it was painful.

Scottie has elite passing and court vision with weaker shot-making skills. Do we maximize what we get from him by playing him at the three or four? At times he was defending Jokic. That's insane. Remember when they would put OG up against centers and he would end up injured?

IQ has quality shot-making ability but weaker court vision, yet we play him at the one.

I know I'm borrowing from others, but others make sense. Scottie is not going to excel at the 3/4 and his value as an asset will diminish.

So referencing your point in Bold text, IQ should move to the two with Scottie at the 1. RJ (6'6"), just an inch shorter than Scottie, and BI (6'8") at the 3/4 and Jakob at the 5.

If that doesn't work then it is time to explore trades. Move RJ to the bench and his asset value drops, unless he is willing to stay here for less money when his contract is up.

[Pointgod]

I’m not out on RJ. I think he’s a great dude. I don’t believe he’s a good fit for the SL, so what I’m concerned about is shoving him in anyway. And I also feel there’s an overrated impact for scorers if they arent defenders. RJ is a leading scorer but flat in rpm. He was 54 ts% at 29% usage last year. Thats not a recipe to help win games. My thing with RJ is we seem to tip toe around him being a good scoring average player, or an all star part of the big 3. If he came off the bench or if our other pieces in the SL were different, I wouldn’t have much to say on it. I just don’t think it’s a good fit, in wonder why its treated like its set in stone. I think people realize Ochai would be a better fit, but Ochai is likely to even get consdiered for an extension this year because we have so much invested in drafting two recent SG's and he and seems like the forgotten guy when imo, he’s actually a good option for the SL if we want to actually compete.

Consider this from an asset management perspective though. Sending RJ to the bench likely means his contract becomes even less valuable than it is perceived today. And conversely, Ochai inserted into the starting lineup inflates his leverage going into contract negotiation.

I think the rationale for RJ staying in the starting line up makes some sense if viewed from this perspective. I don't see us meaningfully competing this year, so we should still be focused on trying to maintain or improve the value of the players as much as possible. The trade off is limiting someone like Jakobe's playing time vs. cratering RJs value even further.

I don't see all of this set in stone though. Maybe they roll RJ in the SL until the trade deadline with the hope that we can move him then.

The whole point of the Ingram trade was to make us a more competitive team. I was told that it signalled the rebuilding era and the Raptors are ready to be a playoff team. Bringing RJ off the bench and starting Agbaji makes us a better and more balanced team, RJ’s trade value be damned. What was the whole point of trading for Ingram if we’re not going to try to be competitive? Traded for Ingram, gave him an extension, extended Poeltl, Barnes locked into a max contract, Quickley’s locked in, RJ will be tough to move because of his contract and we’re close to the tax. Darko should be putting the best lineups out there and giving minutes to the guys that will win.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Agbaji being a better fit is a premise and not proof. We should see if they actually lose a lot of games first before making line-up adjustments in favour of lesser talents.

[dballislife]

barrett will be battling ingram for top scorer most nights, ochai will be battling gradey for bench minutes most nights

[YogurtProducer]

IQ should move to the two with Scottie at the 1. RJ (6'6"), just an inch shorter than Scottie, and BI (6'8") at the 3/4 and Jakob at the 5.

The sooner you all understand Scottie is not a point guard, the better.

He simply does not have the ball handling skills, nor the decision making ability, to be a full-time 1.

IQ clears him on both fronts there.

Can we at least like let IQ play the PG position for a few weeks as a full-time starter before we conclude on what he is? As a Raptor he has has an assist rate on par with SGA and Curry, along with one of the lowest turnover rates in the league among PG's. Maybe we should just let that guy play point guard for a while with a healthy and non-tanking lineup before we conclude he can't do it.

[YogurtProducer]

Agbaji being a better fit is a premise and not proof. We should see if they actually lose a lot of games first before making line-up adjustments in favour of lesser talents.

If we had proof, there wouldn't be a freakin' discussion board.

It seems pretty clear to me though that a team that has a lack of shooting and defence in a lineup, could use the guy who is plus shooter and defender alongside them. He is 100% a better fit.

[Godaddycurse]

Agbaji being a better fit is a premise and not proof. We should see if they actually lose a lot of games first before making line-up adjustments in favour of lesser talents.

If we had proof, there wouldn't be a freakin' discussion board.

It seems pretty clear to me though that a team that has a lack of shooting and defence in a lineup, could use the guy who is plus shooter and defender alongside them. He is 100% a better fit.

i think Agbaji being a better defender is proof and not premise. I would start RJ and close games out with Agbaji (ie when we need stops) personally.

[Raptorfan2012]

I do think its time to flip Gradey; he just doesn't fit into our system very well. I rather play Ochai and Walters over Dick. See if we can squeeze any value out of him.

[deck]

I’m not out on RJ. I think he’s a great dude. I don’t believe he’s a good fit for the SL, so what I’m concerned about is shoving him in anyway. And I also feel there’s an overrated impact for scorers if they arent defenders. RJ is a leading scorer but flat in rpm. He was 54 ts% at 29% usage last year. Thats not a recipe to help win games. My thing with RJ is we seem to tip toe around him being a good scoring average player, or an all star part of the big 3. If he came off the bench or if our other pieces in the SL were different, I wouldn’t have much to say on it. I just don’t think it’s a good fit, in wonder why its treated like its set in stone. I think people realize Ochai would be a better fit, but Ochai is likely to even get consdiered for an extension this year because we have so much invested in drafting two recent SG's and he and seems like the forgotten guy when imo, he’s actually a good option for the SL if we want to actually compete.

Consider this from an asset management perspective though. Sending RJ to the bench likely means his contract becomes even less valuable than it is perceived today. And conversely, Ochai inserted into the starting lineup inflates his leverage going into contract negotiation.

I think the rationale for RJ staying in the starting line up makes some sense if viewed from this perspective. I don't see us meaningfully competing this year, so we should still be focused on trying to maintain or improve the value of the players as much as possible. The trade off is limiting someone like Jakobe's playing time vs. cratering RJs value even further.

I don't see all of this set in stone though. Maybe they roll RJ in the SL until the trade deadline with the hope that we can move him then.

The whole point of the Ingram trade was to make us a more competitive team. I was told that it signalled the rebuilding era and the Raptors are ready to be a playoff team. Bringing RJ off the bench and starting Agbaji makes us a better and more balanced team, RJ’s trade value be damned. What was the whole point of trading for Ingram if we’re not going to try to be competitive? Traded for Ingram, gave him an extension, extended Poeltl, Barnes locked into a max contract, Quickley’s locked in, RJ will be tough to move because of his contract and we’re close to the tax. Darko should be putting the best lineups out there and giving minutes to the guys that will win.

I'm merely providing the perspective on why these decisions are not as simple as is often portrayed on real gm. As I said, moving RJ to the bench virtually assures he is an unmovable contract, and gives Agbaji more leverage going into contract negotiations. Do you disagree with these statements?

And yes, we are trying to be more competitive, but I would suggest a more important facet of this season is to try to improve the value of the people we have on questionable contracts. Specifically, we need to show that IQ and RJ are not negative value contracts. This gives us flexibility to make moves for us to be meaningfully competitive, rather than shortsighted roster moves that win us a couple of extra games now, but ensure we extract nothing of value out of someone like RJ. "RJ's trade value be damned" is a dumb statement to make for a team that isn't currently in a position to win meaningful playoff games. We need to extract as much value out of this roster as we can.

I would concede the counter argument as I pointed out in my prior post, that the real debate should be centred around at what point are we limiting the development of JaKobe or others. But I maintain what I said that these are not obvious or simple decisions for a GM to make as is often portrayed here.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Agbaji being a better fit is a premise and not proof. We should see if they actually lose a lot of games first before making line-up adjustments in favour of lesser talents.

If we had proof, there wouldn't be a freakin' discussion board.

It seems pretty clear to me though that a team that has a lack of shooting and defence in a lineup, could use the guy who is plus shooter and defender alongside them. He is 100% a better fit.

i think Agbaji being a better defender is proof and not premise. I would start RJ and close games out with Agbaji (ie when we need stops) personally.

Agbaji being a better defender is absolutely proof. Whether that defense is good enough to offset what RJ brings to the SL on offense is unknown.

[ForeverTFC]

RJ is stifling whatever upside this team has. As Lowe and Hollinger said, he should be coming off the bench but that will never happen on the account of his father, his nationality, and his contract size. The only hope we have is limiting his minutes as much as possible with Scottie/BI/IQ until we find a way to trade him.