Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 2

[The Chucker]

Couldnt have said it any better James. DeMar+Barnes+Davis+Jonas core is decent - potentially really good if and only if everyone pans out - but we are so far from the likes of Miami and OKC that I think even saying we need a HR is an understatement. We need that HR to be a grand slam here.

Q. Miller is the next KD. thats why we need to draft him!

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

I like Anthony Davis. Even if we're deep at power forward he's the best available player in the draft and we so desperately need talent. Him and the big v would make us a force in the paint.

[Weems]

I could understand Barnes leading a poll started in June, but it's awful and embarrassing that he's leading a brand new poll.

Check out this other poll, you MAD?

http://basketball.realgm.com/poll/216704#ixzz1einVI2Jf

No. I'm embarrassed, not mad. I have nothing against Barnes, but he's not the best prospect in the draft and am fully confident we would draft BPA over fit if we had the opportunity. We're rebuilding. We should accumulate the best assets.

[JamesNaismith]

I like Anthony Davis. Even if we're deep at power forward he's the best available player in the draft and we so desperately need talent. Him and the big v would make us a force in the paint.

I agree.

No one at that position is enough to turn down a potential franchise talent to couple with Valanciunas but I still like Drummond more because the 2 of them could easily become interchangable at the 4-5 and Andre's potential is just off the charts (not to mention he's still going to put on MORE size and potentially weigh as much or more then Howard).

SECOND TO THAT, drafting them makes Bargnani completely dispensible in every regard. If he can't net us someone/thing decent in a trade we could amnesty him and suddenly have HUGE CAP SPACE.


DeRozan/Drummond/Val + expiring contracts + Ed Davis and 2nd rder as trade bait (for Gilchrist or whatever SF that falls in the draft) + 2 MAX FA CAP SPACE


Does anybody hear me?????

[TJ Quik]

I agree that there is no way one can pass on either of the AD's if we end up with a top 2 pick. If I was picking #1, I think I would favour Drummund just because I think his game would compliment JV better, although I have Davis as the top player in this draft. That said, I really don't think we are going to be picking top 2 anyway. Assuming we are picking in the 3-6 range, I just hope we can leave the draft with one of Lamb or Barnes.

For those hating on Barnes, people need to keep in mind that he is just scratching the surface and we are 5 games into the season. He started slow last year as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if he entrenches himself as the #3 pick in this draft when it is all said and done. He's yet to breakout, but his talent is undeniable, and his skillset would fit onto this team like a glove...

[5DOM]

Not to mention that both Amir and Bargs can be used as trade assets

[DreamTeam09]

Can I say we need to stop over-rating the ability for players who can create for themselves. A lot of ppl call Lebron the best player in the league and his creativity is awful for the most part eyy. All he does he just barrel his way into the middle. The guys with the best creativity in the L aren't even superstars eyy. Jamal Crawford, Monta Ellis, Drose, Its guys like that who are good at creating things, but other than rose, those guys aren't Superstars, barely All-stars. Basketball is just about creating seperation / space to get your shot off comfortably or to attack your basket... Demar has no problem getting his shot off or getting to the basket. Evidence he gets like 7ft a game. At 6'8 220 lbs, Barnes is not going to have any trouble getting his game off. I agree you need handles and IQ to help create for others, both aspect Demar & Barnes could stand to improve on, but that comes with experience, better players, and better schemes / instruction more than anything...

[JamesNaismith]

Can I say we need to stop over-rating the ability for players who can create for themselves. A lot of ppl call Lebron the best player in the league and his creativity is awful for the most part eyy. All he does he just barrel his way into the middle. The guys with the best creativity in the L aren't even superstars eyy. Jamal Crawford, Monta Ellis, Drose, Its guys like that who are good at creating things, but other than rose, those guys aren't Superstars, barely All-stars.

Sorry but this is a pretty awfully manipulated way of framing who can create

1. DRose was last year's MVP in case you missed it, also he's a PG not a wing like the players in question.

2. Crawford and Ellis are SGs trapped in PG bodies and are too small to be true stars at their position; not even close to being the case for the other picks in question.

3. Dismissing James' ballhandling as just barrelling is convenient and inaccurate. It may work a couple of times but you don't beat monster defensive teams formerly like the Pistons and the Celtics if you can't create for yourself or others. Major fail on your part.

4. You also leave out true examples of players who do have good ball handling skills that ARE elite players in the league...ie/ DWAYNE WADE, KEVIN DURANT AND KOBE BRYANT...have you ever heard of them before???

5. Can you name another combination now or in years past that had to players on the wing that couldn't create off the dribble that became CONTENDERS (keyword)?? Keep in mind these would be 2 out of your 3 best players moving forward. If not, do you see what I'm saying?

[5DOM]

Creativity and ability to create one's own shot are two completely different things IMO. LeBron can most definitely create his own shot and actually has an elite play-making ability.

[TJ Quik]

Not to mention that both Amir and Bargs can be used as trade assets

I agree, though I suspect Davis is moved before Amir. I think Amir is just perfect as a 3rd big off the bench and he's an excellent glue guy who loves the city.

Flip Davis at the draft for a team in the late lottery looking for a big, and land a wing like Gilchrist or Adonis Thomas. As for Bargs, unless we get value for him I'd probably keep him around and worse case we can amnesty him in a year or two if he continues his garbage ways. I'm still holding out hope Casey can get through to him though, as his issue is only a compete level thing...

[DreamTeam09]

Creativity and ability to create one's own shot are two completely different things IMO. LeBron can most definitely create his own shot and actually has an elite play-making ability.

Then why did he put up a total of 10pts and 6 4th quaters games in the NBA finals. He's a great passer. Lebron Iso up top, I am not afraid of in the least bit. Froce left into the help and hes going to charge into and get a foul call or not... I can show you countless of youtube plays. You don't need to break guys down off the dribble in order to create. KD creates in the ways Demar and H.Barnes can and will. Post up smaller players, attack the bigger players to get your shot off clean or to get to the basket. KD doesn't have premiere handles. Dwade can create yes!! Its not the end all be all in order to be a star player. Its over-rated in some aspects because you still need to finish the shot, get to the line, or make a pass which is all independent of "creating" The Mavs won the ship this yr with Marion, D.Stevenson, Jet, and Cardinal on the wings, none of those guys are what one consider a good creater...

[Kabookalu]

Then why did he put up a total of 10pts and 6 4th quaters games in the NBA finals. He's a great passer. Lebron Iso up top, I am not afraid of in the least bit. Froce left into the help and hes going to charge into and get a foul call or not... I can show you countless of youtube plays. You don't need to break guys down off the dribble in order to create. KD creates in the ways Demar and H.Barnes can and will. Post up smaller players, attack the bigger players to get your shot off clean or to get to the basket. KD doesn't have premiere handles. Dwade can create yes!! Its not the end all be all in order to be a star player. Its over-rated in some aspects because you still need to finish the shot, get to the line, or make a pass which is all independent of "creating" The Mavs won the ship this yr with Marion, D.Stevenson, Jet, and Cardinal on the wings, none of those guys are what one consider a good creater...

1) LeBron choked in the finals, that doesn't take away his elite ability to create for himself.
2) Durant still has better handles than either DeMar and Barnes, and is faster than both.
3) The Mavericks had arguably the best ISO creator in the league leading them.

[plainballing]

Latest game from Drummond is actually partly changing my mind about Davis as #1 lately...can't wait to see both of them duel.

[Rapcity_11]

Can I say we need to stop over-rating the ability for players who can create for themselves. A lot of ppl call Lebron the best player in the league and his creativity is awful for the most part

This is mind boggling. How wrong can you get?

[5DOM]

1. I really believe LeBron's struggle had more to do with him being passive than him lacking the skills (although he definitely could have used more versatility). This is a guy who didn't even attack JJ Barea from the perimeter.

2, Of course you don't NEED to break guys down off dribble to create, but Barnes and DeRozan are not KD. You are comparing one of the most talented scorers college basketball AND NBA have ever seen to guys who are maybe just above average in terms of creating own offense. Barnes and DeRozan would have to make SIGNIFICANT improvements to get to KD's level.

3. Mavs had Dirk who can...uh...create. We have Bargnani.

[plainballing]

1. I really believe LeBron's struggle had more to do with him being passive than him lacking the skills (although he definitely could have used more versatility). This is a guy who didn't even attack JJ Barea from the perimeter.

2, Of course you don't NEED to break guys down off dribble to create, but Barnes and DeRozan are not KD. You are comparing one of the most talented scorers college basketball AND NBA have ever seen to guys who are maybe just above average in terms of creating own offense. Barnes and DeRozan would have to make SIGNIFICANT improvements to get to KD's level.

3. Mavs had Dirk who can...uh...create. We have Bargnani.

1. Totally agree, it seems like he lack some heart...ala Wince.

2. KD is long and tall...I thought he can't shoot the ball well when he first entered the league...then, before I know, he is making shots from every single spot on the court.

3. Bargs...um...ya, create turnover and defensive rebounds for the opponent.

[Basketball_Jones]

Lebron's struggles are definitely mental. He was passing up open 3's and just not shooting the ball at all. The Mavs played zone and Lebron just refused to try and break it. I can't imagine Jordan passing up an open 3 against a zone, and he wasn't a very good 3 point shooter either outside of a couple of seasons.

[Kabookalu]

There were even some moments during the finals where I thought he did his best T-Mac impression when he showed zero effort in a game against us.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjbkXewxlGI[/youtube]

[DreamTeam09]

1) Lebron choked in the finals because he has no mid-range game! And didn't / couldn't do it for himself as his #s and game showed. We let him take those 3s and sag offed off of him, let him try to get to the basket... What good is lebron James is you are going to defer to wade, bosh, haslem, miller, and whoever else wanted the ball...

2)I'm not sayin Barnes or Demar are KD, my point was this "creativity" or "handle" that is being craved by a lot of posters is over-rated. Even if KD is better than Barnes or Demar, that isn't something that defines his game is it. KD is not known as that type of baller. He's a lights out shooter who can put the ball on the deck & get to the rim with his length right????

3) The poster asked me what WINGS duo or w/e are on team that are contenders. Yes ino about DIRK. Thats my favourite player/team. This was the sole reason why the mavs never won a championship b4, because they never had that wing help. When they did with josh howard, they went to the finals, and his dumb ass choked away game 3. Finley did his thing back in the day too.

[JamesNaismith]

Glad you avoided answering me head on and some key points but let's go at this again....

Then why did he put up a total of 10pts and 6 4th quaters games in the NBA finals. He's a great passer. Lebron Iso up top, I am not afraid of in the least bit. Froce left into the help and hes going to charge into and get a foul call or not... I can show you countless of youtube plays. You don't need to break guys down off the dribble in order to create. KD creates in the ways Demar and H.Barnes can and will. Post up smaller players, attack the bigger players to get your shot off clean or to get to the basket. KD doesn't have premiere handles. Dwade can create yes!! Its not the end all be all in order to be a star player. Its over-rated in some aspects because you still need to finish the shot, get to the line, or make a pass which is all independent of "creating" The Mavs won the ship this yr with Marion, D.Stevenson, Jet, and Cardinal on the wings, none of those guys are what one consider a good creater...

1. It's clear that when I criticize Barnes for not having "ballhandling" skills you have an image of a player who's got ridiculous handles, crossing over people left and right like he were Allen Iverson...because you've spent time refercing PG size players not large wings.

2. AGAIN address how Lebron beat teams like the Pistons and Celtics with his "limited" ballhandling skills...teams like that were far too good to just "barrell" through. For one barrelling requires a lot of open space either from open court or spaces left open by the defences....OR THEY ARE CREATED. BOS or DET would without doubt close up all available lanes and very rarely give fastbreak opportunites....

Keep in mind, he did this in CLE as the LONE target of the defence -- he had to figure out ways to manipulate and get around the defences while BEING THE PRIMARY BALLHANDLER in the offence. Mike Brown was long criticized for seemingly having very limited offensive schemes other then getting the ball to James and expecting him to create....oddly somehow with what you dub as average or comparible handles to Barnes he was a player averaging 30pts, 7 apg and 7rpg...explain to me again how that happens???

3. Then I call on exhibit "A" in which Durant uses his handles on several occasions to get his shots off and score at will

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzBGlL3ZQc[/youtube]
Feel free to show me comparible footage of DeMar or Barnes, crossing over defenders or using other forms manipulating their dribble to create openings (A BIG PART OF BALLHANDLING YOU DON'T SEEM TO COMPREHEND) like Kev just did....I'll wait.