General NBA Discussion Thread

[Thespianoid]

Towns has been very impressive this game. His decision making is just so quick.

I'm sure, as a big, playing with Ricky Rubio is a godsend. He's simply a master at finding his bigs in comfortable places, not to mention everyone else. Raptors guards could learn from his approach - player movement to force defensive action, find the best shot, go to the hot hand. Something Cory Joseph actually did decently this game.

[Dr Positivity]

Another gloriously bad Lakers team

[Throwback24]

Another gloriously bad Lakers team

Led by a washed up star who doesn't know when to quit. He's really limiting the growth of the youngsters on the team with his play.

[Kabookalu]

I have Duncan ahead of Kobe in my all time list by a good margin because of how they've aged later in their careers. Duncan, realizing he's not the same player as he used to be, deferred to his teammates and focused on being more of a defensive anchor and a 3rd option on offense. Kobe hasn't realized he's not the same player as before and is dragging his team down to the depths of hell with him. I really can't stand seeing him play anymore, he's an absolute cancer.

This isn't what I'm solely using to determining their rankings, but it's that extra factor that pushes things into Duncan's favor.

[Hero]

Towns looking good. Will have to try to catch his games.

Looking forward to Knicks Wizards tonight.

[hsb]

I have Duncan ahead of Kobe in my all time list by a good margin because of how they've aged later in their careers. Duncan, realizing he's not the same player as he used to be, deferred to his teammates and focused on being more of a defensive anchor and a 3rd option on offense. Kobe hasn't realized he's not the same player as before and is dragging his team down to the depths of hell with him. I really can't stand seeing him play anymore, he's an absolute cancer.

This isn't what I'm solely using to determining their rankings, but it's that extra factor that pushes things into Duncan's favor.

To be fair, Duncan is on a whole different level now too.

He had 18/11/3.3/1.4 with an eFG% of .589, in last years playoffs (including a 27/11 performance in game 7), as he schooled Griffen and Jordan in the post. He's literally one of the best players in the NBA as of now.

[Thespianoid]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/mhonkasalo/status/660561000584867840[/tweet]

Ouch.

[tsherkin]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/mhonkasalo/status/660561000584867840[/tweet]

Ouch.

Drummond is spectacular at off-ball movement and he establishes post position very well, but his move to and touch on the hook is so stiff with either hand... He just doesn't have the feel for it, which isn't super surprising.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

1. Comparing kobe to duncan makes no sense. When kobe was winning those titles in 2009 and 2010 and duncan was looking washed up no one was saying duncan is better than kobe. Duncan runs Pop's system while Kobe is running...Byron Scott's. Before the Achilles injury kobe literally carried his team to the 7th seed playing like the best SG in the NBA and a top 5 player. Yeah it's hard to watch him right now but this is probably his last year. Its almost like holding MJ's Wiz years against him. As for hindering "young talent", this is his first year really playing with any of the rookies. Clarkson emerged after injuries took a toll on the lakers (kobe was out) and he started getting more playing times. This is the first year he is playing with Randle and Russel. He also only played 22 minutes last game. Plenty on court time with out the "kobe cancer". Scott also seems to not be playing Russel a lot of minutes so far, probably easing him into the rotation.

2. Andrew Wiggins is starting to worry me. It seems like the dude has handed the team over to KAT already. He looks like he doesn't give a **** out there on the court and drifts for major parts of games. I know its only been 2 games in the new season but these same issues have been haunting him since college.

3. Saying Melo is washed up when he is coming from a majour knee surgery with tons of rust is laughable. Give him sometime. He is playing well vs the Wiz right now.

[Kabookalu]

1. Comparing kobe to duncan makes no sense. When kobe was winning those titles in 2009 and 2010 and duncan was looking washed up no one was saying duncan is better than kobe. Duncan runs Pop's system while Kobe is running...Byron Scott's. Before the Achilles injury kobe literally carried his team to the 7th seed playing like the best SG in the NBA and a top 5 player. Yeah it's hard to watch him right now but this is probably his last year. Its almost like holding MJ's Wiz years against him. As for hindering "young talent", this is his first year really playing with any of the rookies. Clarkson emerged after injuries took a toll on the lakers (kobe was out) and he started getting more playing times. This is the first year he is playing with Randle and Russel. He also only played 22 minutes last game. Plenty on court time with out the "kobe cancer". Scott also seems to not be playing Russel a lot of minutes so far, probably easing him into the rotation.

Duncan hasn't been "running" Pops system since 2010 when they still ran the triangle around Duncan. Since then they switched to a motion offense revolving around Tony Parker's abilities, and Duncan took a big step back as far as his offensive responsibilities goes. Try convincing Kobe to do the same. And best SG in the league, top 5 player? It was easy for him to put up those kind of stats with his complete negligence to play defense. There are entire compilations of him dogging it on defense while his man was completely wide open in the corner. And who cares how long Kobe has been hindering talent, the point is he's doing it. One year of having a cancer on your team around your young talent is a year too many. The first three years are critical for a rookie's development.

[hsb]

1. Comparing kobe to duncan makes no sense. When kobe was winning those titles in 2009 and 2010 and duncan was looking washed up

Oh really? Want to explain that one lol?

2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

If that's washed up, Duncan is GOAT.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

1. Comparing kobe to duncan makes no sense. When kobe was winning those titles in 2009 and 2010 and duncan was looking washed up no one was saying duncan is better than kobe. Duncan runs Pop's system while Kobe is running...Byron Scott's. Before the Achilles injury kobe literally carried his team to the 7th seed playing like the best SG in the NBA and a top 5 player. Yeah it's hard to watch him right now but this is probably his last year. Its almost like holding MJ's Wiz years against him. As for hindering "young talent", this is his first year really playing with any of the rookies. Clarkson emerged after injuries took a toll on the lakers (kobe was out) and he started getting more playing times. This is the first year he is playing with Randle and Russel. He also only played 22 minutes last game. Plenty on court time with out the "kobe cancer". Scott also seems to not be playing Russel a lot of minutes so far, probably easing him into the rotation.

Duncan hasn't been "running" Pops system since 2010 when they still ran the triangle around Duncan. Since then they switched to a motion offense revolving around Tony Parker's abilities, and Duncan took a big step back as far as his offensive responsibilities goes. Try convincing Kobe to do the same. And best SG in the league, top 5 player? It was easy for him to put up those kind of stats with his complete negligence to play defense. There are entire compilations of him dogging it on defense while his man was completely wide open in the corner. And who cares how long Kobe has been hindering talent, the point is he's doing it. One year of having a cancer on your team around your young talent is a year too many. The first three years are critical for a rookie's development.

That lakers team were top 3 in injuries that year. Kobe put them team on his shoulders and his career literally ended by the end of it. And kobe's defense that year wasn't great, but it was acceptable. Especially when you consider his running mates in the back court. Only plus defender with him that year was Howard who was also injured. He wasn't just stat padding out there, he was running the whole offense after the ASG which led to the lakers having a top 3 post ASG record and making the playoffs. You act like he was putting his up 27/6/5 while playing for the wolves.

As for Tim duncan, good for him for knowing when to take a step back and become a role player like kareem did. The reason he did is because he has a great coach and a great team around him when he knows that he can win rings. Not only that, but Duncan is more effective right now because he has a lot less mileage on his body compared to kobe. Kobe was playing 38 mpg before popping his Achilles. Some guys hang on too long. I don't see how that is a stain on a legacy when MJ was "hindering" Kwame from developing. I almost gurantee you that if kobe right now at his age had his 2009/2010 teams with Phil Jackson, he would be playing around 28 mpg and act more as a facilitator to pau. Kobe has always differed, but only to the right teammates. Last year kobe shot a bad % because he basically had to, the team had no one than can score which was evident from watching games last year.

As for kobe being a cancer to player development, point out to one player that kobe should have differed to his last two years (which he lost due to injury any way). The team was all 1 year contract stop gap guys that were not retained from year to year outside of Jordan Hill who is now also gone. Only Clarkson (Randle was injured after his first game) and as I said, Clarkson started getting a lot of playing time after kobe went down with his rotator cuff. You act like kobe had KAT and wiggins on his team last year and he hogged the ball. Even kobe said that he can't keep taking over games and it is time for the young guys to develop this year, the article is over on ESPN. The season just started and after 1 game kobe has been a cancer for a whole year and hindering talent which honestly is unfair and over dramatic.

I'm not here to ride kobe's nuts but dude always gets dumped on unfairly and comparison's to Duncan always irk me because it is a totally different circumstance all together. (Team/Coach/Position/Minute management). It is always laughable how to pump another player, dudes gotta discredit what kobe has done. By your logic, if Kobe retired after he tore his Achilles he would be higher on the all time list than hanging on and hindering the development of ?????????.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

1. Comparing kobe to duncan makes no sense. When kobe was winning those titles in 2009 and 2010 and duncan was looking washed up

Oh really? Want to explain that one lol?

2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

If that's washed up, Duncan is GOAT.

If memory serves me right, everyone was calling the spurs demise and for Duncan to ride off into the sunset after the grizzlies became just the 3rd team to beat a #1 seed as a #8th seed. His decline became evident after 2010. Pop realized this and shifted the whole offense to tony parker, making Duncan a role player. The 2009 season was Duncan's last elite year as a true first option.

[hsb]

1. Comparing kobe to duncan makes no sense. When kobe was winning those titles in 2009 and 2010 and duncan was looking washed up

Oh really? Want to explain that one lol?

2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

If that's washed up, Duncan is GOAT.

If memory serves me right, everyone was calling the spurs demise and for Duncan to ride off into the sunset after the grizzlies became just the 3rd team to beat a #1 seed as a #8th seed. His decline became evident after 2010. Pop realized this and shifted the whole offense to tony parker, making Duncan a role player. The 2009 season was Duncan's last elite year as a true first option.

I'm not the one who said he was looking washed up in 2009 and 2010. That's really wrong.

You're focusing too much on being a first option as well. He obviously declined from his prime years, but not much in relation to his position in the NBA. Duncan was and still is the teams most important player since 1997. Even last year, he was the teams best player while taking on a bunch of elite players in their prime. You can see it on the court right now, he's an elite player to this day. (edit for wording lol)

[-TheDocOfDenial]

Oh really? Want to explain that one lol?



If that's washed up, Duncan is GOAT.

If memory serves me right, everyone was calling the spurs demise and for Duncan to ride off into the sunset after the grizzlies became just the 3rd team to beat a #1 seed as a #8th seed. His decline became evident after 2010. Pop realized this and shifted the whole offense to tony parker, making Duncan a role player. The 2009 season was Duncan's last elite year as a true first option.

I'm not the one who said he was looking washed up in 2009 and 2010. That's really wrong.

You're focusing too much on being a first option as well. He hasn't declined after 2010 really, obviously from his prime years, but not in relation to his position in the NBA. Duncan was and still is the teams most important player since 1997. Even last year, he was the teams best player while taking on a bunch of elite players in their prime.

I'm not taking away anything from Duncan. He was still a good player in the playoffs for the spurs during their 2 finals runs. Washed up was the wrong word to use, but he was slowing down and it became evident he can not carry his team any more. Watching spurs game with their slow, pounding style was not working evident in their 4 game exit to the suns and then the grizzlies. That is why the spurs reinvented themselves. Ask most great players, the say they can still preform great if they had to play one game but the grind is what gets them. The reason duncan can play so well for so long is due to the minutes and rest system in place. I'm not focusing on being a first option or anything, but it was Tony Parker's team the last few years. The spurs go as he goes and this year with LMA, parker is now going to also take a step back. It is the spurs way and comparing players to Ducan's unique situation again makes no sense.

[Kabookalu]

That lakers team were top 3 in injuries that year. Kobe put them team on his shoulders and his career literally ended by the end of it. And kobe's defense that year wasn't great, but it was acceptable. Especially when you consider his running mates in the back court. Only plus defender with him that year was Howard who was also injured. He wasn't just stat padding out there, he was running the whole offense after the ASG which led to the lakers having a top 3 post ASG record and making the playoffs. You act like he was putting his up 27/6/5 while playing for the wolves.

As for Tim duncan, good for him for knowing when to take a step back and become a role player like kareem did. The reason he did is because he has a great coach and a great team around him when he knows that he can win rings. Not only that, but Duncan is more effective right now because he has a lot less mileage on his body compared to kobe. Kobe was playing 38 mpg before popping his Achilles. Some guys hang on too long. I don't see how that is a stain on a legacy when MJ was "hindering" Kwame from developing. I almost gurantee you that if kobe right now at his age had his 2009/2010 teams with Phil Jackson, he would be playing around 28 mpg and act more as a facilitator to pau. Kobe has always differed, but only to the right teammates. Last year kobe shot a bad % because he basically had to, the team had no one than can score which was evident from watching games last year.

As for kobe being a cancer to player development, point out to one player that kobe should have differed to his last two years (which he lost due to injury any way). The team was all 1 year contract stop gap guys that were not retained from year to year outside of Jordan Hill who is now also gone. Only Clarkson (Randle was injured after his first game) and as I said, Clarkson started getting a lot of playing time after kobe went down with his rotator cuff. You act like kobe had KAT and wiggins on his team last year and he hogged the ball. Even kobe said that he can't keep taking over games and it is time for the young guys to develop this year, the article is over on ESPN. The season just started and after 1 game kobe has been a cancer for a whole year and hindering talent which honestly is unfair and over dramatic.

I'm not here to ride kobe's nuts but dude always gets dumped on unfairly and comparison's to Duncan always irk me because it is a totally different circumstance all together. (Team/Coach/Position/Minute management). It is always laughable how to pump another player, dudes gotta discredit what kobe has done. By your logic, if Kobe retired after he tore his Achilles he would be higher on the all time list than hanging on and hindering the development of ?????????.

lololol acceptable? Kobe might have been the worst defender in the league, at a time when we still had Jose Calderon. I remember the Lakers fanbase was divided arguing about Kobe. Half thought he was still one of the best players in the league, the other half could not stomach his intolerable defense anymore.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season

We start off in the beginning of your typical San Antonio Spurs set. Tony Parker has the ball, Tim Duncan is ready to set a screen, and everybody else is behind the three point line. Kobe's defensive responsibility is some Argentinian scrub named Manu Ginobli.



The screen is set, the help defender is helping. Nothing to see here.



Help defender still helping, original defender has gotten between the basket and the screener. The corner defenders have collapsed to the paint. This is pretty typical stuff. But things are about to get ugly. Take a look at the three pictures we've presented so far. Notice anything? Kobe Bryant hasn't moved ... like at all. He's standing in the exact same spot he was when the possession started. Sorry, I apologize. He has moved. After all, the ball went from the top of the circle to the paint, and he did turn his head to watch that event happen.



Having spent the entire possession being completely ignored, Manu Ginobli picks the appropriate time to run by a completely unaware Kobe Bryant. With the big man covering Parker into the lane and nobody else on the active roster over 6'7", Manu has a completely uncontested dunk.



My favorite part: Kobe Bryant, just enjoying the view as his defensive responsibility lays the ball easily in the basket. Look, people get back doored from time to time. As a defender in a team concept, you are supposed to pay attention to a lot of things all at once, and sometimes you lose sight of your primary responsibility. It happens. It happens way, way too often to Kobe these days, and we could easily grab a few more examples from this or any other game the Lakers play, but that's not the problem. Look at Kobe in picture one. Now back to Kobe here. Now back to picture one. Now back to here. Over the entirety of this defensive possession, Kobe Bryant took ONE step. Kobe didn't get back-doored because he was worried about helping. He didn't get back-doored because he was worried about rotating at the right time. He got back-doored because, on this defensive possession, he chose to be a spectator.

But wait, it gets worse ...

There's another defensive play that Kobe botches in the article that's offensive to the eyes. I mean to Kobe's credit back then his defense was the only despicable thing about his game, he was still a great offensive player, but now his offense and defense sucks, and he has no leadership skills, the guy offers his team absolutely nothing.

And it's a disservice to Duncan to say that he only did it because he had a great coach, as if any star player on the decline would suddenly take a huge step back and swallow their pride for the betterment of the organization, just because he was playing under Poppovich. As if Kobe was playing for the Spurs, he'd suddenly make a 180 on his egotistical and selfish ways at the age of 36.

The Lakers were crap last year, but that doesn't justify Kobe chucking up shots and shooting his team out of games. Two wrongs don't make a right. Kobe might have been one of the most detrimental players in the league last year with the way he hogged the ball and killed the flow of the offense.

And you missed the point of my post. Duncan's ability to conform and reduce his game for the betterment of his team pushes his case farther than Kobe in the all time list. I don't hold any star players twilight years against them, however if they're capable of being a contributor late in their careers, that just strengthens their case. It's more Duncan than it is Kobe.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Stephen Curry is going off - 43 pts thru 3 quarters, 28 of them in the 3rd.

Best player in the world.

[Syd-TK3]

Curry is such an amazing player to watch, he makes everything look so easy.

[raptor jesus]

If memory serves me right, everyone was calling the spurs demise and for Duncan to ride off into the sunset after the grizzlies became just the 3rd team to beat a #1 seed as a #8th seed. His decline became evident after 2010. Pop realized this and shifted the whole offense to tony parker, making Duncan a role player. The 2009 season was Duncan's last elite year as a true first option.

I'm not the one who said he was looking washed up in 2009 and 2010. That's really wrong.

You're focusing too much on being a first option as well. He hasn't declined after 2010 really, obviously from his prime years, but not in relation to his position in the NBA. Duncan was and still is the teams most important player since 1997. Even last year, he was the teams best player while taking on a bunch of elite players in their prime.

I'm not taking away anything from Duncan. He was still a good player in the playoffs for the spurs during their 2 finals runs. Washed up was the wrong word to use, but he was slowing down and it became evident he can not carry his team any more. Watching spurs game with their slow, pounding style was not working evident in their 4 game exit to the suns and then the grizzlies. That is why the spurs reinvented themselves. Ask most great players, the say they can still preform great if they had to play one game but the grind is what gets them. The reason duncan can play so well for so long is due to the minutes and rest system in place. I'm not focusing on being a first option or anything, but it was Tony Parker's team the last few years. The spurs go as he goes and this year with LMA, parker is now going to also take a step back. It is the spurs way and comparing players to Ducan's unique situation again makes no sense.

Duncan has only logged about 400 fewer minutes than Kobe. Sounds like you're marginalizing his greatness based on not only the "Spurs model", but raw stats as well. Just last year he was 4th in DWS, 14th in total WS, 9th in WS per48, 9th in Box Plus/Minus - so he's still tremendously valuable, although it may not be as apparent.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

Don't want to make a huge replay post but I said acceptable due to the circumstance he was in. No 36 year old can carry you both offensively and defensive and win ball games. The PG spot was a huge negative on defense (nash/sessions) and MWP at SF did nothing that year. It was acceptable because they were winning games with that formula. I can pick out a lot of screenshots like this from last years finals and prove LeBron was a horrible defender too last year (which is untrue).

I want to see how you quantify kobe as offering his team absolutely nothing and that he was no leadership qualities. I don't want opinions, I want facts.

Duncan always talks about how it is hard to step back but when you know its for the good of the team and when you have a chance to win, you set your ego aside and go for it. This was in an article recently about TP taking a lesser role. I have no doubt in my mind that Ducan on last years Lakers team would still have been the #1 option and having a huge usage rate due to the staff and the team construction.

Lakers last year were literally a stop gap team. They did not even want to win, they wanted to get a lottery pick which was very evident in their roster composition. Kobe had to chuck up shots because there were no creators on that team and the players flat out refused to shoot. This was an issue evident in guys like Lin. Remember how kobe kept telling him to shoot and facilitate? Kobe last year had a ton of games where he came out passing and trying to get his team mates going and when the game started to slip he would start chucking. Not saying it was effective, but he at least tried something to stop the bleeding. There was also no flow to the offense due to lack of chemistry and Byron Scott pants on head system. If kobe was such a cancer last year than why didn't the lakers start winning games at an exceptionally larger clip than after he got injured for half of the season? That team was bad and still had a better winning % with kobe on the floor than with out (no matter how crappy it was).

There is no proof that kobe can not be a contributor late in his career. He is stuck on a bad team where he is the focus of the defense. He is not out there dragging down a good team because of his ego. The season is two games old, lets just give him a chance to see what he can do with the rookies. We have no idea how kobe would do in a situation like Duncan's. If you want to use Duncan's longevity to move him up higher than Kobe on your list that is fine, but you don't gotta chip away at kobe for it. Kind of like Brady fans chipping away at Peyton when ever they get the chance, shows a bit of insecurity.