Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry

[triple_threat]

Vince never had a well rounded roster during his playoff runs. If you look at the 2001 roster its just Vince, Alvin, Antonio Davis and a handful of guys in their 30s who were on the tail ends of their careers. You also have to consider that even though Lenny Wilkins is an acclaimed coach, and as much as people hate Casey, those teams weren't as well coached on both ends of the floor as this current team.

+1

Greatest team sure, but greatest player I think not.

People don't like to look at circumstances/teammates/opposition. The same type of shallow analysis occurs when putting too much weight on rings in comparing players. Raps got to the ECF, so Lowry is automatically the greatest lol. VC haters were just waiting for this moment to crown Lowry the greatest.

Lowry could never command the defensive attention that VC did in his prime. It was double team or he's dropping 40. Replace Derozan with VC and get a borderline all-star PG in place of Lowry and the Raptors would be much better IMO. VC made everyone around him that much better.

That's just my opinion and there is no real way of proving it and it's tough to say who would be a fair replacement at the PG spot. That being said, people trying to paint a team accomplishment as Lowry's personal accomplishment is sickening considering the historically garbage shooting numbers Lowry is putting up this playoffs.

[SuigintouEV]

Replace Derozan with VC and get a borderline all-star PG in place of Lowry and the Raptors would be much better IMO.

Strange. VC played with a HoF point guard in Jason Kidd, they even had Krstic and Jefferson as part of a "Big 4" - and that team was not as good as this Raps team. Albeit better-coached by Lawrence Frank.

[Chad_Warden]

And, if you look at his advanced stats, it was his best playoff year EVER.

Wrong. VC's best playoff year every was 2006. By a massive margin too.

[Arman_tanzarian]

VC with Kyle's mindset could have been prime Wade/Kobe good.

[Arman_tanzarian]

Replace Derozan with VC and get a borderline all-star PG in place of Lowry and the Raptors would be much better IMO.

Strange. VC played with a HoF point guard in Jason Kidd, they even had Krstic and Jefferson as part of a "Big 4" - and that team was not as good as this Raps team. Albeit better-coached by Lawrence Frank.

Baby LeBron sonned them.

[triple_threat]

Replace Derozan with VC and get a borderline all-star PG in place of Lowry and the Raptors would be much better IMO.

Strange. VC played with a HoF point guard in Jason Kidd, they even had Krstic and Jefferson as part of a "Big 4" - and that team was not as good as this Raps team. Albeit better-coached by Lawrence Frank.

Stopped reading at Kristic forms part of a big 4 lmfao

[Raptorfan2012]

Kyle > Vince only in terms of team success.

Vince > Kyle in terms of talent and cultural impact.

[dTox]

Even when he was shooting below 30%, he was still more effective on the floor than majority of the players, this is what I love most about Kyle Lowry.

[dTox]

That being said, people trying to paint a team accomplishment as Lowry's personal accomplishment is sickening considering the historically garbage shooting numbers Lowry is putting up this playoffs.

Prior to game 6:

Raptors plus-11.3 per 48 with Lowry vs. Heat

minus-42.7 per 48 without him (biggest swing of any semis series player)

And these numbers don't include the last 2 games where he torched the Heat. Even when he's shooting poorly, he's still the most important player for the Raptors.

[Kabookalu]

I'm not convinced the players you quoted disproves T-Mac's point.

As good as Westbrook is today, he's not as good as where MVP Iverson was then. Kevin Garnett was better than today's Kevin Durant. And Cousins is no better than Chris Webber or Karl Malone back those days. Damien Lillard? Sorry but Gary Payton was much better especially if you consider both sides of the floor. Kawhi Leanard? Well his current teammate, Tim Duncan, was better back in those days.

True, Curry is generational talent, but so was prime Shaq back in those days. Today's Lebron vs. then Kobe? Close. Towns as best rookie? He doesn't beat LeBron or Wade who came on as rookies in 2003. Not mentioned were Dirk, prime Vince, T-Mac himself, Grant Hill, Pierce, Ray Allen, etc... It's hard to compare different time periods and I hate to agree with T-Mac but he's not wrong.

On topic of this thread, IMO, Vince remains the best Raptors player ever. Lowry is the better leader and his team today is better than Vince's team. That 2001 team was all Vince, without whom they'd be a lottery team.

Westbrook is better than Iverson. Way way better. Iverson is a glorified Lou Williams. Gary Payton's heyday was in the 90's. During the 2000's he was declining, his defense especially, and he was overrated offensively; put up stats, but that's because he dominated the ball so much. A current Lowry is better than 2000's Payton, same with Lillard and John Wall. LeBron was overrated as a rookie, the best one from his class was Carmelo actually, and I liked Towns better than Melo.

There's also the stars I didn't even mention, like James Harden (as much as I despise his game, he's better than all the wings you mentioned), Blake Griffin, Chris Paul, Draymond, Milsap, Wade, Paul George. As I said in any one single year, I can't remember ever the league being this top heavy and loaded with starS. you used Payton and Karl Malone as examples, but they declined during the 2000's. I mean Malone was like 37 years old already. And if we're allowed to use multiple years, that allows me to bring up 09 Wade (better than Vince,T-Mac, Hill, on par with Kobe), 2009 Danny Granger, 2011 Dirk, 2013 LeBron, healthy Brandon Roy, 2014 Kevin Love, 2010 Steve Nash, 2014 Carmelo.

[Bleed-Green]

Replace Derozan with VC and get a borderline all-star PG in place of Lowry and the Raptors would be much better IMO.

Strange. VC played with a HoF point guard in Jason Kidd, they even had Krstic and Jefferson as part of a "Big 4" - and that team was not as good as this Raps team. Albeit better-coached by Lawrence Frank.

Krstic was considered as scrub in his Nets days and Jefferson was choking at playoffs.
Nets were a two man team at that time.

[Danny1616]

Vince never had a well rounded roster during his playoff runs. If you look at the 2001 roster its just Vince, Alvin, Antonio Davis and a handful of guys in their 30s who were on the tail ends of their careers. You also have to consider that even though Lenny Wilkins is an acclaimed coach, and as much as people hate Casey, those teams weren't as well coached on both ends of the floor as this current team.

+1

Greatest team sure, but greatest player I think not.

People don't like to look at circumstances/teammates/opposition. The same type of shallow analysis occurs when putting too much weight on rings in comparing players. Raps got to the ECF, so Lowry is automatically the greatest lol. VC haters were just waiting for this moment to crown Lowry the greatest.

Lowry could never command the defensive attention that VC did in his prime. It was double team or he's dropping 40. Replace Derozan with VC and get a borderline all-star PG in place of Lowry and the Raptors would be much better IMO. VC made everyone around him that much better.

That's just my opinion and there is no real way of proving it and it's tough to say who would be a fair replacement at the PG spot. That being said, people trying to paint a team accomplishment as Lowry's personal accomplishment is sickening considering the historically garbage shooting numbers Lowry is putting up this playoffs.

Carter could not impact the game on both ends like Lowry is doing. Yes, he may have been a bit more dangerous offensively, but Lowry does so much more on the court.

It's no coincidence Lowry has led this team to franchise record wins in back to back seasons.

Read this article here that was put up before Lowry was back to his normal shooting in games 5 and 6.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/toronto-raptors-kyle-lowry-miami-heat-nba-playoffs-most-valuable-player-051316

Defenses don't specifically strategize to shut him down, and his per-game numbers don't make you think Basketball-Reference.com transmitted a virus into your laptop. But, through one of the worst shooting slumps in NBA playoff history, Lowry remains one of the most valuable players still left in the postseason...What these numbers mean: When Lowry isn't on the court, Toronto's offense is less potent than the Philadelphia 76ers and its defense is flimsier than the Los Angeles Lakers. When he's on the floor, Lowry holds everything together, whether he's playing with starters or bench players (Toronto continues to crush everything in its path whenever Lowry is the only usual starter embedded with four reserves).

[SuigintouEV]

Replace Derozan with VC and get a borderline all-star PG in place of Lowry and the Raptors would be much better IMO.

Strange. VC played with a HoF point guard in Jason Kidd, they even had Krstic and Jefferson as part of a "Big 4" - and that team was not as good as this Raps team. Albeit better-coached by Lawrence Frank.

Krstic was considered as scrub in his Nets days and Jefferson was choking at playoffs.
Nets were a two man team at that time.

You really have no idea what you're talking about if you think Krstic was considered a scrub. He was a regular threat to score 20, played strong man defense and decent team defense, and could stretch you out, or roll. He was a very good center. He was maybe a step below what JV is right now for us.

Those Nets teams were good, but their big flaw was they had no power forward. If they could have acquired a guy like Rasheed Wallace or Lamar Odom they would have had the best starting 5 in the NBA bar none. Funnily enough, our team is good, but has no power forward.

[smallgains]

Vince is a true one way player with the heart of the Tinman.

[Bleed-Green]

Strange. VC played with a HoF point guard in Jason Kidd, they even had Krstic and Jefferson as part of a "Big 4" - and that team was not as good as this Raps team. Albeit better-coached by Lawrence Frank.

Krstic was considered as scrub in his Nets days and Jefferson was choking at playoffs.
Nets were a two man team at that time.

You really have no idea what you're talking about if you think Krstic was considered a scrub. He was a regular threat to score 20, played strong man defense and decent team defense, and could stretch you out, or roll. He was a very good center. He was maybe a step below what JV is right now for us.

No center is very good with ~6 rebounds per game in my books. He could hit mid-range jumper, but not a stretch big for sure.

Who knows, had Nets and Timberwolves agreed on KG for RJ trade, then perhaps the real Big 3 would have formed.
About best lineup - you forgot Pistons. High quality player at every position.

[johanliebert]

Vince never had a well rounded roster during his playoff runs. If you look at the 2001 roster its just Vince, Alvin, Antonio Davis and a handful of guys in their 30s who were on the tail ends of their careers. You also have to consider that even though Lenny Wilkins is an acclaimed coach, and as much as people hate Casey, those teams weren't as well coached on both ends of the floor as this current team.

+1

Greatest team sure, but greatest player I think not.

People don't like to look at circumstances/teammates/opposition. The same type of shallow analysis occurs when putting too much weight on rings in comparing players. Raps got to the ECF, so Lowry is automatically the greatest lol. VC haters were just waiting for this moment to crown Lowry the greatest.

Lowry could never command the defensive attention that VC did in his prime. It was double team or he's dropping 40. Replace Derozan with VC and get a borderline all-star PG in place of Lowry and the Raptors would be much better IMO. VC made everyone around him that much better.

That's just my opinion and there is no real way of proving it and it's tough to say who would be a fair replacement at the PG spot. That being said, people trying to paint a team accomplishment as Lowry's personal accomplishment is sickening considering the historically garbage shooting numbers Lowry is putting up this playoffs.

YOu don't go from a 40% 3p shooter to one of the worst shooters since 1940 lol. THe regular season and the playoffs aren't not two different beast like you couch potatoes would love to believe. numbers don't skew THAT much from career norms. You may overachieve or have a hot stretch due to a shorter amount of games but not what he did.

Theres only a handful of pgs better than lowry he was a top [10 player this season. He had a better season this year than vc every did as a raptor. I wouldn't say hes the better player but...you can argue it.

[SuigintouEV]

No center is very good with ~6 rebounds per game in my books. He could hit mid-range jumper, but not a stretch big for sure.

Krstic was a good rebounder, though. He boxed out often and let Kidd get a lot of of boards, which started the fast break. And the Nets played a very slow pace in general, so there weren't as many boards to go around in a typical game.

He was a stretch big by 2006 standards. Not by 2016 standards, no, but it's a different era now.

[Bleed-Green]

No center is very good with ~6 rebounds per game in my books. He could hit mid-range jumper, but not a stretch big for sure.

Krstic was a good rebounder, though. He boxed out often and let Kidd get a lot of of boards, which started the fast break. And the Nets played a very slow pace in general, so there weren't as many boards to go around in a typical game.

He was a stretch big by 2006 standards. Not by 2016 standards, no, but it's a different era now.

Well, all eras had bigs who could shoot.
Early 2000's had Dirk, Sheed, Sabonis (was retired by 2006, but his impact on the game didn't go anywhere), possibly quite a few others I can't remember.
And then there were guys like KG, Elton Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Webber who had reliable jumpshot.
Hell, Mikki Moore could shoot as well.

[SirHuey]

Give this man a statue

I want see number 7 in the rafters.

[SuigintouEV]

No center is very good with ~6 rebounds per game in my books. He could hit mid-range jumper, but not a stretch big for sure.

Krstic was a good rebounder, though. He boxed out often and let Kidd get a lot of of boards, which started the fast break. And the Nets played a very slow pace in general, so there weren't as many boards to go around in a typical game.

He was a stretch big by 2006 standards. Not by 2016 standards, no, but it's a different era now.

Well, all eras had bigs who could shoot.
Early 2000's had Dirk, Sheed, Sabonis (was retired by 2006, but his impact on the game didn't go anywhere), possibly quite a few others I can't remember.
And then there were guys like KG, Elton Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Webber who had reliable jumpshot.
Hell, Mikki Moore could shoot as well.

Krstic's jumper was more reliable than C-Webb or JO. And Sabonis was retired then.