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Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George

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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#81 » by PhilBlackson » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:10 am

Mr Burns wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:
Mr Burns wrote:
2010- Avery Bradley instead of Ed Davis
2011- Leonard, Klay, Butler instead of Jonas
2012- Draymond Green instead of Ross
2013- no pick (landed at 12) could have had Giannis or Gobert
2014- Jokic instead of Bruno


Damn bro we could have had a line up of

Bradley
DeRozan
Leonard
Giannis
Jokic

6th man Draymond Green
Spoiler:
Not how the nba works


You only think you sound smart lol until you realize throwing out players that we're considered flukes and mentioning a player when we didn't even a pick have one versus players who were actually in consideration somehow makes your point :lol:

Spoiler:
You proved nothing



Maybe you should learn the difference between we're and were before questioning someones intelligence. You completely missed the point of my post, in hindsight anyone can look back and say "oh we could have had so and so" it does not work like that. No one knows how good or bad these players would be. You could literally do that for every single franchise in the NBA.


Or maybe I can go in circles taking turns being grammar police and point out the difference between SOMEONE'S and SOMEONES "before questioning someone's intelligence" :wink: :lol:

But when you come down from the high horse that isn't the point and it's not just hindsight. How it does work is you look at players who were ACTUALLY/LIKELY in consideration for that pick and your management's draft style, we're using our own because of course it's a hypothetical of what if we tanked versus what we are doing. What you don't do is used FLUKE (which by the nature of the word implies UNLIKELY) picks to try and validate something which you were doing. Your "point" is about as meaningless as if we were debating where not to swim when considering sharks and I say stay out of waters that are colder and have many seals in them where there are endless reports of sharks eating and you say well that's no different then staying out of a warm patch of water where there was one shark reported attack in the past century. One is a fluke occurrence where as one is a LIKELY occurrence, the ODDS are far greater in one versus the other.

There was nothing outlandish or unlikely in thinking better management (in this discussion we're talking about Masai) would have chosen out of those names mentioned and ORL would be in a MUCH better situation but they squandered it. McGregFan's point was soft at best because he thought pointing out ORL somehow "proves" tanking doesn't work when in reality it's not that tanking doesn't work but creating a winning team with bad management and poor decision makers doesn't work. Tanking greatly increases your odds of landing a true star player that's a simple fact as it is that the vast majority of championship teams have acquired at least one of their main stars in the top portion of the draft. On the flip side there are very few (if any) examples of teams that were in a similar predicament to ours that making the assumption that our management is able to bring back Lowry and Ibaka which they have repeatedly stated their intention to are capped out and also therefore making late 1st rd picks that suddenly become contenders (but maybe YOU can help him out with that since he seems to be struggling mightly). So THAT is the case for tanking versus what WE'RE (lol) doing.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#82 » by Mr Burns » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:25 am

PhilBlackson wrote:
Mr Burns wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:
You only think you sound smart lol until you realize throwing out players that we're considered flukes and mentioning a player when we didn't even a pick have one versus players who were actually in consideration somehow makes your point :lol:

Spoiler:
You proved nothing



Maybe you should learn the difference between we're and were before questioning someones intelligence. You completely missed the point of my post, in hindsight anyone can look back and say "oh we could have had so and so" it does not work like that. No one knows how good or bad these players would be. You could literally do that for every single franchise in the NBA.


Or maybe I can go in circles taking turns being grammar police and point out the difference between SOMEONE'S and SOMEONES "before questioning someone's intelligence" :wink: :lol:

But when you come down from the high horse that isn't the point and it's not just hindsight. How it does work is you look at players who were ACTUALLY/LIKELY in consideration for that pick and your management's draft style, we're using our own because of course it's a hypothetical of what if we tanked versus what we are doing. What you don't do is used FLUKE (which by the nature of the word implies UNLIKELY) picks to try and validate something which you were doing. Your "point" is about as meaningless as if we were debating where not to swim when considering sharks and I say stay out of waters that are colder and have many seals in them where there are endless reports of sharks eating and you say well that's no different then staying out of a warm patch of water where there was one shark reported attack in the past century. One is a fluke occurrence where as one is a LIKELY occurrence, the ODDS are far greater in one versus the other.

There was nothing outlandish or unlikely in thinking better management (in this discussion we're talking about Masai) would have chosen out of those names mentioned and ORL would be in a MUCH better situation but they squandered it. McGregFan's point was soft at best because he thought pointing out ORL somehow "proves" tanking doesn't work when in reality it's not that tanking doesn't work but creating a winning team with bad management and poor decision makers doesn't work. Tanking greatly increases your odds of landing a true star player that's a simple fact as it is that the vast majority of championship teams have acquired at least one of their main stars in the top portion of the draft. On the flip side there are very few (if any) examples of teams that were in a similar predicament to ours that making the assumption that our management is able to bring back Lowry and Ibaka which they have repeatedly stated their intention to are capped out and also therefore making late 1st rd picks that suddenly become contenders (but maybe YOU can help him out with that since he seems to be struggling mightly). So THAT is the case for tanking versus what WE'RE (lol) doing.


Everything in your post is irrelevant to what I'm saying. :lol: I think you are having a different argument with yourself. I actually agree with a lot of the points you are making. I just don't think you can look back and say " we could have so and so" because no one knows how those players will turn out, its only because we have the advantage of hindsight that we can sit here and question the picks. Every team in the NBA has made mistakes drafting players, it's not always a 100% guarantee that they player will turn out to be good players. Look at guys like Beasley, Evan Turner, Oladipo ( all guys that were supposed to be great top 5 picks) turned out to be trash or average at best)
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#83 » by OAKLEY_2 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:36 am

McGregFan wrote:Tankers are the worst breed on this forum. I hope we blow it up and tank for 5 years just so they can call for masais head when 3/5 prospects underwhelm



I am of the opinion we need a retrofit build that respects having financial flexibility and being competitive. Masai's tightrope of youth and allstars sinks with too much movement either way. Not an easy formula but full on tanking is reckless especially if you can never expect to ever attract any tier one UFA stars.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#84 » by LastNameEver » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:42 am

mieshpal wrote:I don't understand why Hayward would leave Utah. That team is developing and he should attract another star there instead of leaving imo

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You guys think like arm chair GM's and not like multi-million dollar athletes with brands.

There is only ONE reason to stay in the brutal west and pick Utah over a market like Boston.. and thats $.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#85 » by PhilBlackson » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:44 am

Mr Burns wrote:
Everything in your post is irrelevant to what I'm saying. :lol: I think you are having a different argument with yourself. I actually agree with a lot of the points you are making. I just don't think you can look back and say " we could have so and so" because no one knows how those players will turn out, its only because we have the advantage of hindsight that we can sit here and question the picks. Every team in the NBA has made mistakes drafting players, it's not always a 100% guarantee that they player will turn out to be good players. Look at guys like Beasley, Evan Turner, Oladipo ( all guys that were supposed to be great top 5 picks) turned out to be trash or average at best)


Of course no one knows how they will turn out, there's no crystal ball...but the discussion was tanking as a viable option versus what we are doing as means to create a championship contender (period).

The nitpicking of the actual players aren't really the most important factor in this discussion. It's exactly what I just said. We're talking about teams that tanked, not that were/are garbage run by bad ownership/management groups. You or MGF tell me of a team that is going to be capped out as a 2-4th place team (that was well below 1st in terms of it's actual competitiveness) that had late 1sts that suddenly became contenders versus teams that added top draft picks and built around them to create a contender because the numbers are SIGNIFICANTLY in favor of teams that tanked. That is the discussion simple and plain.

You hoping into that discussion to point out fluke picks or NOW ones that didn't pan out didn't weaken that point whatsoever.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#86 » by Yallbecrazy » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:51 am

I wrote about this in another thread, they pretty much can't get both, copy and paste from before:


I don't think they could sign Hayward and trade for George unless they trade away Horford.
Seems like they can't make that trade without salary matching if they sign Hayward.
Wouldn't it be the opposite, go after Hayward and then if they fail---> trade for George? Only thing that makes sense cap wise I think.


http://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/
If they renounce everyone, release Zeller, release Mickey, release Jackson and sign Tatum they would have about 32.5MM in cap room. I assume Hayward would sign for about 29.7MM which would leave 2.8MM for George who is making 19.5MM. So they could keep 2.8MM of those guys they let go-renounced, let's say Mickey.

They would have to ship out roughly ~15.5MM to acquire George in that scenario due to 20% of salary matching, which would mean Crowder and Bradley both have to go (that gets it very close-unsure if they would need another player or not). If it doesn't quite add up they would ship the one guy they didn't release (say Mickey)


Seems like an awesome lineup, but they don't have a bench anymore and really don't have a SG, with 2 SFs and a SF/PF. Rebounding would be a major issue, but they could switch on the perimeter a ton.

Thomas/Tatum/Hayward/George/Horford

Bench of Brown/Rozier/Smart/minimum guys. That's 7 minimum guys to fill the roster. 0 of those bench guys can play PF or C, what minimum bigs are they going to sign?
Then to re-sign Thomas and George would put them so deep into the luxury tax it's almost laughable. (120MM + just between 4 of their starters)

Also, to sign George to an extension they would have to release a lot of their cap holds or some + trade away some guys.

To outright sign Hayward they would still have to release all their cap holds and almost all their non guaranteed contracts save for one.
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Re: RE: Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#87 » by mieshpal » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:34 am

The Boy wrote:
mieshpal wrote:I don't understand why Hayward would leave Utah. That team is developing and he should attract another star there instead of leaving imo

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You guys think like arm chair GM's and not like multi-million dollar athletes with brands.

There is only ONE reason to stay in the brutal west and pick Utah over a market like Boston.. and thats $.

I understand the market. I should of wrote my post alittle differently. I have been watching NBA basketball for a very long time and I obviously understand if he wants to leave Utah for a better market like Boston. I just thought he was gunna stay with Utah tbh and try to build something there and thats what I really was trying to say, but it definitely doesn't surprise me if he leaves. Especially if he does go to Boston because the market, the coach connection and the assets they have.

Also I am an armchair GM and so are you lol. Until I see a paycheck from the NBA I can't say otherwise






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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#88 » by Raps in 4 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:03 am

Ainge is a Legend.

**** Boston sports team. At least the Red Sux are saddled with Dumbrowski now.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#89 » by Mr Burns » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:49 am

PhilBlackson wrote:
Mr Burns wrote:
Everything in your post is irrelevant to what I'm saying. :lol: I think you are having a different argument with yourself. I actually agree with a lot of the points you are making. I just don't think you can look back and say " we could have so and so" because no one knows how those players will turn out, its only because we have the advantage of hindsight that we can sit here and question the picks. Every team in the NBA has made mistakes drafting players, it's not always a 100% guarantee that they player will turn out to be good players. Look at guys like Beasley, Evan Turner, Oladipo ( all guys that were supposed to be great top 5 picks) turned out to be trash or average at best)


Of course no one knows how they will turn out, there's no crystal ball...but the discussion was tanking as a viable option versus what we are doing as means to create a championship contender (period).

The nitpicking of the actual players aren't really the most important factor in this discussion. It's exactly what I just said. We're talking about teams that tanked, not that were/are garbage run by bad ownership/management groups. You or MGF tell me of a team that is going to be capped out as a 2-4th place team (that was well below 1st in terms of it's actual competitiveness) that had late 1sts that suddenly became contenders versus teams that added top draft picks and built around them to create a contender because the numbers are SIGNIFICANTLY in favor of teams that tanked. That is the discussion simple and plain.

You hoping into that discussion to point out fluke picks or NOW ones that didn't pan out didn't weaken that point whatsoever.


You are delusional man. Look at the past 20 years and tell me how many teams won the NBA championship. If your theory supports tanking wouldn't there be more parity in the league? You say the numbers favour tanking, no?
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#90 » by UcanUwill » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:53 am

I think George is underrated star. He is easily better than Jimmy Butler in my opinion, but for some reason Butler seem to get far more praise.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#91 » by Basketball_Jones » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:40 pm

UcanUwill wrote:I think George is underrated star. He is easily better than Jimmy Butler in my opinion, but for some reason Butler seem to get far more praise.



Consistency. But yes, George is the better talent. He just coasts in the regular season too much.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#92 » by CeltsfaninDC » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:53 pm

PHANTOMPHOENIX wrote:
VC720 wrote:Apparently they're offering the lakers/kings pick and crowder plus filler. We can't beat that offer.


Many teams can beat that offer, probably why there is no deal yet.

yeahhhhhh, no..... thats not what is happening at all.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#93 » by Gant » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:18 pm

CeltsfaninDC wrote:
PHANTOMPHOENIX wrote:
VC720 wrote:Apparently they're offering the lakers/kings pick and crowder plus filler. We can't beat that offer.


Many teams can beat that offer, probably why there is no deal yet.

yeahhhhhh, no..... thats not what is happening at all.


Yup. If they get both Hayward and George, this complicated sequence has to go in the right order. Almost surely free agency before trade.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#94 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:44 pm

There have been like 500 trade rumors with Boston over the past two years.

Don't hold your breath, unless it involves picks going to Boston.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#95 » by ontnut » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:26 pm

Until Boston actually does anything, it's all just rumours. They've been linked to every single potential trade target for the past 2 years. The only real move they've made is the recent trade for picks. Let's cross this bridge when they actually do something to acquire one of these all stars, because it doesn't look like they're ready to commit to anything at this point, and that includes IT.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#96 » by bringbackhoffa » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:36 pm

Likelihood of Hayward re-signing with the Western conference Jazz just got slimmer, easier road to finals if he signs with Boston
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#97 » by Klayforspicy » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:16 pm

Utah doesn't have some bright future. OKC and Portland had bright futures...
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#98 » by mrdressup » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:02 pm

Boston is going to have to empty it's cupboard to get anyone as the deadline gets nearer. This doesn't get them anywhere near as good as they would have to be.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#99 » by KL78192020 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:42 pm

Suns should jump in on George. If they can sign Blake (he's meeting with them) trade Josh Jackson/Knight and future picks for PG.

PG - Bledsoe
SG - Booker
SF - George
PF - Griffen
C - Chandler

Not a bad team.
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Re: Woj: Celtics looking to land both Hayward and George 

Post#100 » by StopitLeo » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:56 pm

bringbackhoffa wrote:Likelihood of Hayward re-signing with the Western conference Jazz just got slimmer, easier road to finals if he signs with Boston


Even easier if he signs here. We are better than Boston.

Trade before Saturday, sign him to a max with bird rights.

I'd easily trade a comparable package to what the Clippers got.

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