Draft Thread Part 4

[Brinbe]

I don't know why people are so worried about 18 year Moody shot creation. If I remember correctly Vince Carter as Junior in college was nothing more then athletic Dunker, Demar coming in the league dribbled like power forward. At least Moody was extremely productive freshman with already a good shooter and great defensive IQ . I wouldn't mind Moody at 7, I would rather draft Moody then guy like Barnes or Keon Johnson.

Seriously. Look at guys like Booker, Klay, etc as wings with size that can shoot that continually make ppl wonder how/why they dropped. Probably because they're not as flashy or whatever, with insane verts. But they can play. And that's Moody right there.

Don't overthink it. Draft Moody. It's as if ppl don't watch the playoffs at all. What matters? Shooting. What can Moody do well? Shoot and defend. Like what are we doing here?

Why are we chasing all these undersized scoring guards when we already have Fred, Malachi, Jalen, etc? I don't think any of these guards we're talking about like Johnson/Mitchell/Bouknight are potentially that much better than what we have that we take them over a Moody.

Anyway, lottery can't get here soon enough so we can finally at least know where we stand.

https://projectspurs.com/2021/05/04/spurs-prospect-watch-moses-moody/

[gerrit4]

I don't know why people are so worried about 18 year Moody shot creation. If I remember correctly Vince Carter as Junior in college was nothing more then athletic Dunker, Demar coming in the league dribbled like power forward. At least Moody was extremely productive freshman with already a good shooter and great defensive IQ . I wouldn't mind Moody at 7, I would rather draft Moody then guy like Barnes or Keon Johnson.

Great points. I think that work ethic and coach-ability really play a major role. Demar was such a terrible ball handler coming into the league, and if I remember correctly, had basically no playmaking skills. I don't know enough about Moody's work ethic, but to my untrained eye, I think there's a lot of potential (and production) there.

[Indeed]

I don't know why people are so worried about 18 year Moody shot creation. If I remember correctly Vince Carter as Junior in college was nothing more then athletic Dunker, Demar coming in the league dribbled like power forward. At least Moody was extremely productive freshman with already a good shooter and great defensive IQ . I wouldn't mind Moody at 7, I would rather draft Moody then guy like Barnes or Keon Johnson.

Seriously. Look at guys like Booker, Klay, etc as wings with size that can shoot that continually make ppl wonder how/why wonder they dropped. Probably because they're not as flashy or whatever, with insane verts. But they can play. And that's Moody right there.

Don't overthink it. Draft Moody. It's as if ppl don't watch the playoffs at all. What matters? Shooting. What can Moody do well? Shoot and defend. Like what are we doing here?

Why are we chasing all these undersized scoring guards when we already have Fred, Malachi, Jalen, etc? I don't think any of these guards we're talking about like Johnson/Mitchell/Bouknight are potentially that much better than what we have that we take them over a Moody.

Anyway, lottery can't get here soon enough so we can finally at least know where we stand.

What is the concern of drafting undersized?

[OakleyDokely]

I don't know why people are so worried about 18 year Moody shot creation. If I remember correctly Vince Carter as Junior in college was nothing more then athletic Dunker, Demar coming in the league dribbled like power forward. At least Moody was extremely productive freshman with already a good shooter and great defensive IQ . I wouldn't mind Moody at 7, I would rather draft Moody then guy like Barnes or Keon Johnson.

18 year old Moody got to the line almost 6 times per game which was one of the top rates among his draft peers.

He has sneaky athleticism and creation skills.

[OakleyDokely]

At the first pick? No he wouldn’t. He was a fine pick and hit in the 20s but as time has gone on these guys would be above him:

Simmons
Ingram
Brown
Sabonis
Murray

With regard to playoff success, how so? He had one good finals series. That’s about it. He was bad against Milwaukee and Philly. He was good against Orlando but that first round series was just too easy.

Are we forgetting the insane struggles that Pascal even had against the Nets?

Brown did better throughout the playoffs last year.
Simmons first playoff run was also really impressive.

We won a title and Pascal was on the team, a key contributor in the last 6 games but pretty poor otherwise. Kawhi carried us to the ECF, Fred decided to show up mid way through Milwaukee, then Pascal said okay let me help out during the finals. Can’t just say we won the finals, he was the second leader scorer throughout the playoffs and second in FGA therefore more PO success. There’s a lot more to it than that.

Compare Siakam's regular season and playoff numbers to the players you listed. When you do, you will find out that his numbers are comparable or better than all those guys you listed.

Those guys you listed are all 2nd/3rd options on championship level teams like Siakam. And Siakam is the only one to win a title in that role.

Oakley is bang on. This board tends to focus on the flaws vs achievements of our players and imagine how much better other players are.
Pascal has been great for the Raptors. Is he Lebron/Curry/Leonard. NO but it doesnt mean he isnt a good player.
If we had Simmons - OH BOY - can you imagine what our fan base would be saying about him.. Can't shoot, chokes in playoffs, always hurt.
Murray - I love him but look at his numbers and pay.. What would we be saying. (he had a great bubble tourney not much else).
INGRAM - haha are we talking about INGRAM now.
Sabonis - Solid player is he really better than Pascal - Come on now.
Brown - Solid - young player- better than I though he would be... But is he worthy of a 1st overall.

I would take Simmons, Pascal/Brown, Murray/Ingram in that order. I would flip a coin between Brown and Pascal depending on the team needs.

Siakam's draft didn't produce a superstar. But there are a bunch of 2nd/3rd options, boderline allstar types who are team building blocks. Siakam is one of those guys. To pretend he isn't simply ignores the facts.

[tecumseh18]

I don't know why people are so worried about 18 year Moody shot creation. If I remember correctly Vince Carter as Junior in college was nothing more then athletic Dunker, Demar coming in the league dribbled like power forward. At least Moody was extremely productive freshman with already a good shooter and great defensive IQ . I wouldn't mind Moody at 7, I would rather draft Moody then guy like Barnes or Keon Johnson.

Seriously. Look at guys like Booker, Klay, etc as wings with size that can shoot that continually make ppl wonder how/why wonder they dropped. Probably because they're not as flashy or whatever, with insane verts. But they can play. And that's Moody right there.

Don't overthink it. Draft Moody. It's as if ppl don't watch the playoffs at all. What matters? Shooting. What can Moody do well? Shoot and defend. Like what are we doing here?

Why are we chasing all these undersized scoring guards when we already have Fred, Malachi, Jalen, etc? I don't think any of these guards we're talking about like Johnson/Mitchell/Bouknight are potentially that much better than what we have that we take them over a Moody.

Anyway, lottery can't get here soon enough so we can finally at least know where we stand.

What is the concern of drafting undersized?

Because defending the 3 is a big problem for the Raps. Our tiny back court is too small to both protect the paint AND effectively close out on shooters behind the arc. Nick has mentioned many times the idea of being able to run out a "jumbo" lineup with OG at the 2. Moody (my current preference) and his 7 foot wingspan would fit perfectly.

But of course, we have to make sure a guy can really play before drafting them. We don't want to draft Tony Snell at #7.

[Zeno]

If Minny keeps their pick, but not #1, I think it totally makes sense for them to trade their pick, Rubio, Culver for a "star" PF. They really really need to be good next year. Just saying....

I think regardless of whether the Warriors or Wolves end up with that pick, both would be willing to discuss dealing it for Pascal.

True, but I think if there is any thought to trading Pascal, a 2nd or 3rd pick is much more attractive than 6th-9th or next year’s Minny pick which I assume will be worse given Finch and their motivation to get better.

[Federalies]

As exciting as it is to think of Cade running point with FVV while switching on defence, let’s not overlook our 2 second round picks. As mentioned a few days ago, the Raptors are a team that hasn’t been scared of taking a gamble on short PG’s I’m surprised there’s not more talk of Max “Mid-Court” Abmas, the 6’1” NCAA’s leading scorer out of Oral Roberts. At 24.6 PPG on 43% 3P% (8.3 3P shots per game) and 89% FT%, 4 assists and 3 rbpg I’d suggest we should have him on our radar in the second round (Tankathon has us taking him at 46)!

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Lou Williams vibe aka instant offense off of the bench!

See this is what I’m thinking. At 46-47 you’re not likely to get a starter, let alone a star but finding a Lou Will that deep in the Second round sounds like a great find. That said, you draft a guy like Max on Spec. You give him some run on the 905 and see if his skills translate against grown men/NBA or near NBA level talent. If he swims, great, if he doesn’t, no problem.

That said, while we all are interested in trying to project talent/skill/and potential upside...sometimes a player with a consistent level of high performance at every level (high school, college, March Madness) are exactly what they seem to be. Steph and Dame have shown that smallish guards who dominate at the mid-major level aren’t just flukes. As others have said, perhaps the eye test combined with statistical proof isn’t a mirage. Maybe, just maybe, the diamond in the rough is in fact a diamond. Then again, perhaps it was fools gold all along!

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[tecumseh18]

If Minny keeps their pick, but not #1, I think it totally makes sense for them to trade their pick, Rubio, Culver for a "star" PF. They really really need to be good next year. Just saying....

I think regardless of whether the Warriors or Wolves end up with that pick, both would be willing to discuss dealing it for Pascal.

True, but I think if there is any thought to trading Pascal, a 2nd or 3rd pick is much more attractive than 6th-9th or next year’s Minny pick which I assume will be worse given Finch and their motivation to get better.

Has to be Top 5, or Top 4 if Masai doesn't like Kuminga. And for a desperate team like GSW, I'd insist on their own pick (#14) PLUS the Minny pick (#5), assuming we have to take back Wiggins. Wiggins has become serviceable, but still nowhere near worth his salary. He's probably being paid double his actual value.

It would actually help Warriors to include Wiseman. Wiseman's ~#9 mill salary is costing them over $20 mill in additional luxury tax payments. I'm sure they can find a more valuable win-now C for the taxpayer MLE.

Of course, and none of this should involve the Raptors own pick going back. We're not "trading up".

[Indeed]

Seriously. Look at guys like Booker, Klay, etc as wings with size that can shoot that continually make ppl wonder how/why wonder they dropped. Probably because they're not as flashy or whatever, with insane verts. But they can play. And that's Moody right there.

Don't overthink it. Draft Moody. It's as if ppl don't watch the playoffs at all. What matters? Shooting. What can Moody do well? Shoot and defend. Like what are we doing here?

Why are we chasing all these undersized scoring guards when we already have Fred, Malachi, Jalen, etc? I don't think any of these guards we're talking about like Johnson/Mitchell/Bouknight are potentially that much better than what we have that we take them over a Moody.

Anyway, lottery can't get here soon enough so we can finally at least know where we stand.

What is the concern of drafting undersized?

Because defending the 3 is a big problem for the Raps. Our tiny back court is too small to both protect the paint AND effectively close out on shooters behind the arc. Nick has mentioned many times the idea of being able to run out a "jumbo" lineup with OG at the 2. Moody (my current preference) and his 7 foot wingspan would fit perfectly.

But of course, we have to make sure a guy can really play before drafting them. We don't want to draft Tony Snell at #7.

I think drafting someone bigger has 2 benefits:
1) Defensive versatility
2) Finishing ability

Keon Johnson will satisfy the above, so he will be ahead of Moody (and possibly ahead of the 7th pick).
At our range between Davion and Bouknight, I would agree that Moody could be in line on that tier, but Keon will likely be ahead with a better offense read than Moody on offense (both Keon and Moody are 6'5 / 6'6)

Regarding our jumbo lineup, I think that may happen only if we draft someone like Barnes. OG is still by far the better defender at SF. If we draft Suggs or Davion, we should still be a good defensive team (particularly with Davion, he can probably guard both guard spots, and not worse than Moody).

As for finishing ability, lets begin with getting to the rim first. Currently Moody may not able to get by his defender (may not even project to be, more a jump shooter).

[Steelo Green]

Age is important but it is only a factor that has to be considered for development path and how much room for improvement they have.

The red flag for shooting is barely a flag. There is enough volume and tape to see if his stroke is good or not. Yes the free throw shooting is a red flag for some players.

Saying Nurse can teach players to play D is misleading. Some guys never get good enough. Elite defensive players usually show it in college. Mitchell is a guy who's going to be a plus defender at the pg spot. that is pretty easy to see.

I not saying we should draft Mitchell, I like several players more than I do him, but I wouldn't hate the pick if it did happen. To me he has the potential to be a defensive player of the year candidate while being enough of an offensive threat to stay on the floor. Not a homerun pick but a solid rotation piece.

If we going to talk about guys with Red Flags for playmaking we gotta be talking Bouknight. He's the most tunnel vision no passing guy on our radar...

DPOY candidate? Really?

PG defenders are simply not as valuable as people want them to be. The interior defender is the most important, then the wing, and the guard is last.

Most of those things are flags and that’s a lot. I don’t like Bouknight either. Not sure why everyone is infatuated with him.

People are overvaluing defense over O and that too especially at a spot where it’s just not as important as people want it to be.

You would take Smart over say Dame? Or Kyrie? Or Steph? Trae?

I do believe coming in as a raw prospect, then yes they can make you a good defender. If you’re say 8 years into your career - then even Pop couldn’t change the habits you have developed.

Johnson is the guy you should try and get if he doesn’t get taken at 6. Could he bust? Sure. But he’s the only one with elite potential.

Non sense to the Smart comparison.
His offense is more like Kambe Walker / Donivan Mitchell. Why not bring up him being Walker but only Smart?

Kemba?

Kemba averaged 23.5 PPG in his last year in college.

This Kemba comparison is bad. A good tourney run means little. He’s not going to be a big ticket scorer in the NBA.

[Indeed]

I don't know why people are so worried about 18 year Moody shot creation. If I remember correctly Vince Carter as Junior in college was nothing more then athletic Dunker, Demar coming in the league dribbled like power forward. At least Moody was extremely productive freshman with already a good shooter and great defensive IQ . I wouldn't mind Moody at 7, I would rather draft Moody then guy like Barnes or Keon Johnson.

18 year old Moody got to the line almost 6 times per game which was one of the top rates among his draft peers.

He has sneaky athleticism and creation skills.

Some of his foul draw by scissor kick, which may not transfer.
I don't think he gets to the line due to isolation, as he is more a jump shooter at the moment, so I am not buying his creation skill (due to lack of handle, he has not shown he can be creative).

[Indeed]

DPOY candidate? Really?

PG defenders are simply not as valuable as people want them to be. The interior defender is the most important, then the wing, and the guard is last.

Most of those things are flags and that’s a lot. I don’t like Bouknight either. Not sure why everyone is infatuated with him.

People are overvaluing defense over O and that too especially at a spot where it’s just not as important as people want it to be.

You would take Smart over say Dame? Or Kyrie? Or Steph? Trae?

I do believe coming in as a raw prospect, then yes they can make you a good defender. If you’re say 8 years into your career - then even Pop couldn’t change the habits you have developed.

Johnson is the guy you should try and get if he doesn’t get taken at 6. Could he bust? Sure. But he’s the only one with elite potential.

Non sense to the Smart comparison.
His offense is more like Kambe Walker / Donivan Mitchell. Why not bring up him being Walker but only Smart?

Kemba?

Kemba averaged 23.5 PPG in his last year in college.

This Kemba comparison is bad. A good tourney run means little. He’s not going to be a big ticket scorer in the NBA.

His comparison on offense is Kemba Walker. Walker gets to the line more and was a better passer.

Please don't use PPG which is pretty non sense. The Usage rate and shot attempts are different (32% for Walker, while 20%), you can't just use a per game basic stats to compare, that is just silly.

Advance stats wise, Walker is better on OWS, but scoring ability is there to compare.

[Zeno]

I think regardless of whether the Warriors or Wolves end up with that pick, both would be willing to discuss dealing it for Pascal.

True, but I think if there is any thought to trading Pascal, a 2nd or 3rd pick is much more attractive than 6th-9th or next year’s Minny pick which I assume will be worse given Finch and their motivation to get better.

Has to be Top 5, or Top 4 if Masai doesn't like Kuminga. And for a desperate team like GSW, I'd insist on their own pick (#14) PLUS the Minny pick (#5), assuming we have to take back Wiggins. Wiggins has become serviceable, but still nowhere near worth his salary. He's probably being paid double his actual value.

It would actually help Warriors to include Wiseman. Wiseman's ~#9 mill salary is costing them over $20 mill in additional luxury tax payments. I'm sure they can find a more valuable win-now C for the taxpayer MLE.

Of course, and none of this should involve the Raptors own pick going back. We're not "trading up".

I think 5th is impossible for GS from the Minny pick. It is either 4th or 6-9th because they are currently 6th going into the lottery. So would you rather #2, Rubio(expiring), Culver, and (likely Hernangomez but possible Beasley's contract for flipping to 3rd team) or 4th, 14th, Wiggins, Wiseman. I guess it is a question of how much you value Mobley over Green/Suggs, right? I think I prefer the GS package.

[Dalek]

Moody is not an elite shooter or defender or playmaker but I guess age is on his side. I just wonder how much growth we can expect.

Look at his shot chart:

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Arkansas the previous year let guys like Joe and Jones create a ton of shots in a very guard centred open offense. With Moody it changed. He has a few good spots and shoots at an okay rate.

What I wonder about prospects is the guys who don't max out their college years. Moody is boring because he just seems like a role player. Hard to see any star potential.

[Psubs]

I’m in the reach for Ayo camp if we drop to 8-10

Trade down into the teens.

Like don't reach for Jalen Smith at #10.

Example, OKC #18, 35 and 36 for #8, 46, 47 and future 1st.

[niQ]

I think it was said before but I think Moody would be a GREAT fit for the Warriors. Especially while they wait for Klay to recover.

[PhilBlackson]

True, but I think if there is any thought to trading Pascal, a 2nd or 3rd pick is much more attractive than 6th-9th or next year’s Minny pick which I assume will be worse given Finch and their motivation to get better.

Has to be Top 5, or Top 4 if Masai doesn't like Kuminga. And for a desperate team like GSW, I'd insist on their own pick (#14) PLUS the Minny pick (#5), assuming we have to take back Wiggins. Wiggins has become serviceable, but still nowhere near worth his salary. He's probably being paid double his actual value.

It would actually help Warriors to include Wiseman. Wiseman's ~#9 mill salary is costing them over $20 mill in additional luxury tax payments. I'm sure they can find a more valuable win-now C for the taxpayer MLE.

Of course, and none of this should involve the Raptors own pick going back. We're not "trading up".

I think 5th is impossible for GS from the Minny pick. It is either 4th or 6-9th because they are currently 6th going into the lottery. So would you rather #2, Rubio(expiring), Culver, and (likely Hernangomez but possible Beasley's contract for flipping to 3rd team) or 4th, 14th, Wiggins, Wiseman. I guess it is a question of how much you value Mobley over Green/Suggs, right? I think I prefer the GS package.

I would be on the opposite end at favor the #2 pick specifically for Jalen Green.

The bottomline for me is superstars don't grow on trees and of course are by far the hardest thing to obtain.

I'm sold that Suggs will be a very good NBA player no doubt but not superstar. I'm damn near certain Green will be a superstar, he's just gonna be box office and provides what the team needs a go to scorer. While not a perfect comparison for me it's somewhat like Luka to Trae + Cam (even if Reddish did work out). There's just levels to it.

I don't doubt Suggs can be like Billups and be an excellent floor general, hit some big shots but I want a guy on this team, you KNOW can get his own shot and won't be denied unless you foul. With Green's MJ like athleticism, he's going to be a walking bucket. I do like Wiseman's potential more than some but he's still not a can't miss type of player to me and I think we'd be able to find a rim runner with some shooting potential down the line but again an actual superstar is so rare and the added benefit is Jalen would have the Raps on national TV every week because of his Zion like drawing power and I think he's more the caliber of player to attract other top players in the future over Suggs and Wiseman but that's just what I think about it.

[WuTang_CMB]

I think it was said before but I think Moody would be a GREAT fit for the Warriors. Especially while they wait for Klay to recover.

Can really shoot it but will have to improve getting to the rim and finishing / get tougher

Reminds me of T Ross

[GM89]

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