Fred "bet on yourself" Van Vleet

[ItsDanger]

Fred is a seriously flawed player. We should know the limitations by now. The problem is he doesn't accept them yet. He needs others on the team to force him into a reserve role as 4th scoring option. Scottie only had 8? shots last night, 0 assists (a disturbing trend so far). At least we can appreciate Pascal more now.

[2019nbachamps]

Good player but unproven ability to lead a winning team. Unless he works on inside game and decision making I think he’ll be known as a guy that gets good stats on bad teams. Problem is I think Masai, Bobby, and Nurse see him as the leader of the team so he has freedom to continue playing as is.

[2019nbachamps]

Nothing is more important to this team right now than developing Scottie. Even though it’s early you can tell he’s the most talented guy on the team. I really just think Fred will get in the way of his development because of how he plays. I think Fred needs to be traded for scottie’s benefit. Fred is best utilized as an off ball three and D player but he thinks he’s a star. It’s just not going to work.

Unless FVV is willing to come off the bench I think we need to trade him. Even still, cap room doesn’t grow on trees to be able to pay a bench guy $20m a year.

I just can’t see us being a winning team with FVV as starting PG. Issue would be what do we do at point? Groom Barnes for the role? Find someone in the draft? Trade FVV for another PG?

[AirCanadaMouse]

Have always been harsh on FVV, will continue to be, but at the end of the day… an undrafted player really developed into an asset. It’s hard to fault him with how he’s progressed. Good on him, but yes I agree… there are limitations that will always remain and he’s hit his ceiling imo.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Honestly, it's not even the number of turnovers that has frustrated me with Fred over the last few games. It's his constant driving into the paint, while picking up his dribble or forcing bad shots. It's just really bad play that needs to be corrected. Like, he doesn't have to force a shot or pick up his dribble....he can just dribble out and reset. But, he doesn't. He forces it and complains to the referee.

I've been an ardent supporter of him in the past, but I can't blindly sit here and pretend this isn't a problem. Because, it is problem. Mostly because we've apparently benched Flynn in favor of Dragic and Svi, who have also played like crap.

These are all self inflicted wounds, that's what makes it so frustrating.

[Madhouse]

Fred is a number 5 on a title winning team. He and Siakam don't fit our timeline. Expect them to be gone next year.

[highscore]

If you watch the shot clock, it takes Fred about 12 seconds to get the ball up and initiate a play in the half-court offense. Very likeable guy, but have never been a fan and his weaknesses are especially glaring today with Kyle's absence.

Siakim/Fred/Dragic/Flynn/Boucher are your trade bait this year. Love the effort of the other guys and could live with watching them struggle but play their hearts out.

[Syd-TK3]

We love a drive a kick offense problem is we don't have the spacing for that anymore

[vini_vidi_vici]

We love a drive a kick offense problem is we don't have the spacing for that anymore

Agreed, I think our new offense also doesnt help with our spacing esp inside the arc.

Having said all of that, we miss alot of bunnies at the rim, and last night 52 of our 83 shots were uncontested. Its tough to win when you dont hit mo shats.

[VanWest82]

I love how people itt are just killing Fred's play making even though he has almost 4x the number of assists as the next best guy on the team (OG). Fred is also 2nd in the NBA currently in potential assists. But sure, he's a SG who sucks at play making.

Edit: I just wanted to add that Kyle was never put in a position like this where he had to play essentially as the only quality play maker on the team. There was that 6ix week stretch in 14/15 when Demar got hurt and he had to basically do everything but outside of that this takes the cake. And he's doing it in an offense which doesn't play to his strengths (i.e. getting down hill off a screen)

[-Blitz-]

One things for sure. I never want to see fred taking a crunch time shot ever again. He simply cant get his shot off in these situations. Id much rather see someone else take the shot like trent or even barnes tbh

[WiggOuts]

Go easy on Fred. You can see the team is deferring to him a lot and hes just not that capable. Nvm the TOs, he played a great team game yesterday. We forget that this is his first time without Kyle to lighten the load and no Pascal to ease the pressure. You cant expect immediate results especially with almost an entirely new team. Hes a good guy to have to play off of a primary playmaker, we dont have that right now

[C_Money]

I love how people itt are just killing Fred's play making even though he has almost 4x the number of assists as the next best guy on the team (OG). Fred is also 2nd in the NBA currently in potential assists. But sure, he's a SG who sucks at play making.

Edit: I just wanted to add that Kyle was never put in a position like this where he had to play essentially as the only quality play maker on the team. There was that 6ix week stretch in 14/15 when Demar got hurt and he had to basically do everything but outside of that this takes the cake. And he's doing it in an offense which doesn't play to his strengths (i.e. getting down hill off a screen)

His assists are like Calderon assists. He’s racking them up but the offence looks like hell with him in the PG spot.

[NBA48mins]

There are plays like this where it makes it so frustrating watching him go 1 on 5 in an early shot clock situation.

He has been shooting below 40% for the past two seasons. I think he can turn it around but he needs to get smarter on his shot selections and when to make plays for the team. 16 shots a game is too much for a guy like Fred, he is not a high volume scorer.

[NBA48mins]

I love how people itt are just killing Fred's play making even though he has almost 4x the number of assists as the next best guy on the team (OG). Fred is also 2nd in the NBA currently in potential assists. But sure, he's a SG who sucks at play making.

Edit: I just wanted to add that Kyle was never put in a position like this where he had to play essentially as the only quality play maker on the team. There was that 6ix week stretch in 14/15 when Demar got hurt and he had to basically do everything but outside of that this takes the cake. And he's doing it in an offense which doesn't play to his strengths (i.e. getting down hill off a screen)

His assists are like Calderon assists. He’s racking them up but the offence looks like hell with him in the PG spot.

Yeah I remember Calderon pounding the rock and having the ball for 80% of the possession. Don't forget Vasquez was 14ppg and 9apg as well for 1 season in NO.

[Lateral Quicks]

He's been subpar so far, but not having Lowry around is an adjustment for him just as it is for everyone else. When Siakam is back hopefully he stops trying to force things so much...

[Knucknbuc]

Fred's starting squad includes
-OG who is 24 and learning how to increase is usage and over come more defensive attention
-GTJ who is 22 and has a 17 game sample size in the raptors system prior to preseason
-Precious who is 22 and new to the Raptors system and has only started 4 NBA games prior to this season
-Barnes who is 20 and a rookie
-Fred himself who is taking a much bigger play making role without Kyle or Pascal around

So 5 players learning 5 new roles, most new to the system and some new to the league. Is it a surprise that the offense is ugly/clunky? On top of that we have a bench of Svi, Dragic, Banton, Birch and Boucher who are also mostly new with the exception of Birch (only 19 games last season) and Boucher who has been playing like trash.

Yes, Fred is primarily handling the ball and making a lot of the ugly plays, but do you really think anyone else could do better on this roster? Do you really want Barnes who is already carrying a big load on defense and scoring to also be the primary play maker and ball handler? Is that really the best thing for his long term development to have him do pretty much everything? Or Banton who is even rawer?

Nurse probably spent most of training camp preparing for our complex defensive schemes so the offense may have been neglected. Pascal who Fred is most comfortable with is out which may be a good thing because it forces Fred to learn the nuances of the other starters. I trust that this group of high IQ, hard working players will figure it out and eventually, Fred, Barnes and Pascal will share the play making duties fairly evenly. Until then, Fred is the best we have and he is doing an amazing job for an undrafted player of his size and speed at his salary.

The irrational Fred hate on this forum and from this fanbase is an embarassment. The man is carrying this team, keeping us competitive, trying to make things happen when our offense stalls, teaching all the new guys their roles and where they need to be, being the coach on the floor and setting an example of what it takes to compete and win in this league. And all folks can think about is his listed height, how many shots he takes and him getting blocked in the paint. Good thing we have a world class president and coach who obviously value Fred very differently from a majority of this genius fanbase we have.

Might be one of the smartest posts of seen on here to date good job man


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[Def Leppard]

Overall I'm impressed and surprised by the rationale in this chat, good stuff!

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[Boogie!]

on an elite championship team fred is a 6th man... hes actually the perfect 6th man/backup point guard for a championship team...

efficient catch and shoot player, good defender at the pg spot, and when asked to play limited minutes especially against benches, can give 100% and fatigue won't be a factor. also if he starts to turn the ball over or make a bunch of bad decisions and the offense stagnates you can just bench him for a better player...

the issue is people overhype him way too much, and much like demar, he's been given a role that he's just not capable of handling. so when you see him dominate the ball it's just super frustrating, especially because you know it's by design and nick nurse and co have basically told him do you...

the reason this is frustrating is because we have better options that are worth developing. or maybe theyre technically not better options right now, the potential is there for them to be better options and the fact that they are not given a chance simply because of the pecking order is frustrating to watch...

you can be mad at scottie's turnovers for example, but he's a rookie and i would rather see him get his reps in now, because his overall playmaking at his peak is probably the best on this team, and his greatest strength is in that role. so i don't mind seeing a young player learn a new system and make his mistakes while he's young so when he gets older (like fvv's age) he won't be making those same mistakes...

another thing frustrating about fvv discussion is the constant excuses for him by his fans... i'm reading things like "it's a new system, he has no one to play with etc etc..." those are the kinds of excuses you make for average players that you're trying to convince to everyone that theyre better than they are... also fvv is a veteran point guard at this point... like i said, these are the things you can excuse scottie for, but fvv at this point in his career making these mistakes are flaws in his game...

some people are willing to overlook those flaws because they think his strengths make up for them. i strongly disagree. he's a point guard and his biggest flaws are his decision making, inefficiency and lack of playmaking ability. how does it make sense that he's handling the ball most of the game? he forces bad layups in traffic, gets blocked how many times again over and over and people say "he needs to be doing that." huh? no he doesn't. he needs to be more aware. in an interview he said he thinks everyone is the same height... he's got that cocky delusional mentality to him. which is great in terms of his confidence, but not great in terms of actually executing because if you think you can get your shot off against 2 6'9 guys with long arms in traffic, you got another thing coming...

[YelloC]

I think the hope is that Scottie and OG develop their dribble drive game to the point that Fred cuts his drives in half and can focus on getting open and defending the point of attack.
A playmaking Scottie seems like the perfect compliment to Fred’s game but it will take some time to build that trust and cohesion.
Siakam should cut into Fred’s drives when he returns and was developing his playmaking skills last season.