Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[Reeko]

Are people actually arguing he doesn't have a face up game?

More so that he doesn't have a well developed face up game and that offensively he seems to be more comfortable with his back to the basket.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Back to his defender type of offence will never succeed in the modern NBA.

He needs to show flashes of a face front offence.

Why do you say that?

Look around the league and tell me what top 20 player that doesn't have a face up game.

they also have elite back to the basket game.

[phanman]

With his size, he really needs to watch and learn how LeBron uses that size to boulder into that paint and finish at the rim. He's always had a big frame since entering the league and he looks like a slightly smaller Dwight Howard with those huge shoulders in these RICO runs.

I think a ~5ppg jump is realistic this year with Fred's touches & shots sprinkled to the rest of the roster.

[SkywalkerAC]

Are people actually arguing he doesn't have a face up game?

100%

Next thing you know they'll be saying he can't dribble the ball or shoot a lick.

Scottie can/should get to the rim with one dribble when he sees his lane, but then it's going to be his finishing step/move that does most of the work. And he's got a lot better at those kinds of finishes - powering into his euro step, gathering into his power finish, shimmying into a fade away or a step through, etc.

LIttle more of a shot will open up space for the attack, and he needs his dribble (and a shot) to initiate in the pick and roll. But otherwise this idea that he can't do X, Y or Z is pretty whack - the guy is about as versatile as they get.

[HumbleRen]

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[Mikistan]

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Sure it can

For the second two tweets, look at the volume of shots Barnes is taking.... Think about the context.

Barnes played 77 games last season and over 34 mins per game and at times was elevated to playing catch and shoot role to fred/siakam iso ball.

If his 13 fga per game this means 2.1 of his fga per catch and shoot threes and he made 0.6 of them. And his pull up 3 percentage while putrid only had 56 attempts?? Less than one a game, and a passer/open court player like him is allowed to attempt those as an option to keep defenses honest and some of those attempts are for sure last second buzzer shots at the end of quarters.

That volume doesn't hurt you and I'm ok with him getting game reps doing it and in the context of his long term development and team offense pecking order last year. Think about how often defenses sagged on his shot, him electing to shoot a pull up 3 every now and then or would you really rather him to turn down open 3pt shots catch and shoot shots to limit himself to less than 2 catch and shoot 3pters a game? No way.

Also please remember Scottie was always supposed to be a longer term project prospect. He's a dynamic, young, dramatic talent. Let love in my guy and enjoy the vibe

[Chandan]

With his size, he really needs to watch and learn how LeBron uses that size to boulder into that paint and finish at the rim. He's always had a big frame since entering the league and he looks like a slightly smaller Dwight Howard with those huge shoulders in these RICO runs.

I think a ~5ppg jump is realistic this year with Fred's touches & shots sprinkled to the rest of the roster.

i like scottie but you really shouldn't compare him to lebron. lebron has such good instinct that he can probably still do what he does 20 pounds lighter.

[Scase]

From last thread:

Has anyone read any of Darko’s stuff? One podcast guest said the offense would probably feature two hubs at the high post, with the initial ball handler passing to the wings and heading to the weak side, and less so dependent on high pick and roll to initiate.
Any of that ring a bell to anyone?

Just gets me thinking that Scottie can thrive both as one of those hubs and as the guy passing off and cutting through (presumably into a side DHO action that could get Scottie downhill or who knows what).

Any insights into how Scottie could look as a ball handler and/or a screener in different Horns actions?

All this theory crafting in how the offense can work, is all ignoring that without any legitimate and consistent outside threats, you can't cut. Sag off the 3pt line and there's no room to cut to the basket.

It's 2023, you need shooters to open up the floor. Period.

[deck]

Look around the league and tell me what top 20 player that doesn't have a face up game.

That didn’t really answer my question though.

People said a shooting team could never win until GSW made a dynasty out of it.

The big man was dead until Jokic won.

So I’m actually just really curious in hearing your thoughts on this.

I mean first of all, you’d have to be elite at posting up to make it even vaiable. Scottie is no where near that.


Posting up with your back to the basket also allows the other teams to set up their half court defence quicker. Makes it MUCH more easier to help off their man to come crowd you and run back to their man if you decide to pass. You can’t build a healthy half court offence if your best player’s go to move is that. It doesn’t bend defences fast enough.

Even Giannis who is a vastly superior athlete still needed to be able to take his man off the dribble while facing the rim to get to the next level. Scottie objectively needs that ability or there’s a severe ceiling on his potential as a player.

Barnes scoring in the post doesn't need to involve traditional back to the basket posting up. He just needs to be active on the offensive boards, or flash into the post if teams are playing point guard match ups against him. If he gets minutes as starting point guard, offensive sets where we immediately switch him out of that role and get him the ball inside could be lethal.

To dismiss a potential offensive advantage on the premise of 'not viable in modern nba' is just dumb.

This doesn't need to be exclusive of his face up game, but should be incorporated.

[PhilBlackson]

Just to get you ready for Magic Barnes to bring some Winning Times to the 6ix....

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Can't wait to see what Scottie's HL reel looks like by the end of next year. All-star (consideration) season otw lol - we better vote him in.

[HumbleRen]

That didn’t really answer my question though.

People said a shooting team could never win until GSW made a dynasty out of it.

The big man was dead until Jokic won.

So I’m actually just really curious in hearing your thoughts on this.

I mean first of all, you’d have to be elite at posting up to make it even vaiable. Scottie is no where near that.


Posting up with your back to the basket also allows the other teams to set up their half court defence quicker. Makes it MUCH more easier to help off their man to come crowd you and run back to their man if you decide to pass. You can’t build a healthy half court offence if your best player’s go to move is that. It doesn’t bend defences fast enough.

Even Giannis who is a vastly superior athlete still needed to be able to take his man off the dribble while facing the rim to get to the next level. Scottie objectively needs that ability or there’s a severe ceiling on his potential as a player.

Barnes scoring in the post doesn't need to involve traditional back to the basket posting up. He just needs to be active on the offensive boards, or flash into the post if teams are playing point guard match ups against him. If he gets minutes as starting point guard, offensive sets where we immediately switch him out of that role and get him the ball inside could be lethal.

To dismiss a potential offensive advantage on the premise of 'not viable in modern nba' is just dumb.

This doesn't need to be exclusive of his face up game, but should be incorporated.

This isn't the shot diet of a star player though or an offensive hub.

That’s completely fine but a high end starter but it’s not viable at all if we’re expecting him to surpass Siakam in the future.

[Yeezus_]

I mean first of all, you’d have to be elite at posting up to make it even vaiable. Scottie is no where near that.


Posting up with your back to the basket also allows the other teams to set up their half court defence quicker. Makes it MUCH more easier to help off their man to come crowd you and run back to their man if you decide to pass. You can’t build a healthy half court offence if your best player’s go to move is that. It doesn’t bend defences fast enough.

Even Giannis who is a vastly superior athlete still needed to be able to take his man off the dribble while facing the rim to get to the next level. Scottie objectively needs that ability or there’s a severe ceiling on his potential as a player.

Barnes scoring in the post doesn't need to involve traditional back to the basket posting up. He just needs to be active on the offensive boards, or flash into the post if teams are playing point guard match ups against him. If he gets minutes as starting point guard, offensive sets where we immediately switch him out of that role and get him the ball inside could be lethal.

To dismiss a potential offensive advantage on the premise of 'not viable in modern nba' is just dumb.

This doesn't need to be exclusive of his face up game, but should be incorporated.

This isn't the shot diet of a star player though or an offensive hub.

That’s completely fine but a high end starter but it’s not viable at all if we’re expecting him to surpass Siakam in the future.

Are you saying all star players don't score in the post at all? Or that only a minimal fraction of their points come from the post? It might be eye test vs. stats but Jimmy and Luka seem like they live in the post. Tatum has been doing a little more in the post too, it's been growing since his first year. Doesn't Jokic live in the post when teams switch and he has a small defender on him?

[HumbleRen]

Barnes scoring in the post doesn't need to involve traditional back to the basket posting up. He just needs to be active on the offensive boards, or flash into the post if teams are playing point guard match ups against him. If he gets minutes as starting point guard, offensive sets where we immediately switch him out of that role and get him the ball inside could be lethal.

To dismiss a potential offensive advantage on the premise of 'not viable in modern nba' is just dumb.

This doesn't need to be exclusive of his face up game, but should be incorporated.

This isn't the shot diet of a star player though or an offensive hub.

That’s completely fine but a high end starter but it’s not viable at all if we’re expecting him to surpass Siakam in the future.

Are you saying all star players don't score in the post at all? Or that only a minimal fraction of their points come from the post? It might be eye test vs. stats but Jimmy and Luka seem like they live in the post. Tatum has been doing a little more in the post too, it's been growing since his first year. Doesn't Jokic live in the post when teams switch and he has a small defender on him?

Jokic can score from all 3 levels. He shouldn’t even be named to use as a comp.

Luka in the top 0.1 in the history of the NBA in regards to his pace. Scottie will never achieve that so I’ll write him off as a comp.


Jimmy is actually the closest player to Scottie in ability so I like this one. Jimmy can circumvent his lack of a first step with his uncanny ability to maintain a live dribble while under duress.

I think Scottie can get to that level in regards to his dribbling ability which would open up a ton of stuff for him offensively.

[Mikistan]

Not viable in nba, if you
Ignore all the examples that make it viable

[sbsat]

A decent mid range jumper can open everything up for scottie

[TravisScott55]

Hopefully he's on the cusp of being an all star this year

[SkywalkerAC]

From last thread:

Has anyone read any of Darko’s stuff? One podcast guest said the offense would probably feature two hubs at the high post, with the initial ball handler passing to the wings and heading to the weak side, and less so dependent on high pick and roll to initiate.
Any of that ring a bell to anyone?

Just gets me thinking that Scottie can thrive both as one of those hubs and as the guy passing off and cutting through (presumably into a side DHO action that could get Scottie downhill or who knows what).

Any insights into how Scottie could look as a ball handler and/or a screener in different Horns actions?

All this theory crafting in how the offense can work, is all ignoring that without any legitimate and consistent outside threats, you can't cut. Sag off the 3pt line and there's no room to cut to the basket.

It's 2023, you need shooters to open up the floor. Period.

Good thing we have shooters then. Even with our most questionable shooting line (Scottie as the starting point), you can go with Horns - maybe you have Scottie and Jak at the elbows and Pascal handling (just for example), Gary and OG in the corners. Scottie and Jak's defenders have to come up to the top of the key to anticipate the action. Pascal could feed it in to Jak and then can go to that side for the DHO or he could take a little backscreen from Scottie on the other side. Jak can find Pascal diving to the hoop or find Scottie on the roll/pop, kick to shooters etc. Jak needs to be guarded up there or the pass will be too easy for him and because he can actually dribble into space to shift the D. They actually ran exactly this play at Rico Hines except it was Gary on the left high-post setting the ball screen, and Jak found him on the roll, in turn finding Scottie for the dump off - easy basket.

Bottomline, actions like this can create space even with Jak's limited shot. But having two elite catch and shoot guys in the corners certainly helps.

And then we come with Gradey, and Otto, and McDaniels. I think our shooting woes are overblown.

[SkywalkerAC]

Anyone want to chime in on why Scottie (or Pascal or Gary) can't operate as the nominal point-initiator if we lean into Horns action to start the game (sans ball-dominant Dennis)?

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Note - when Dennis comes on we can of course switch to the double ball-screen described in the video above, and still have great shooters in the corners. But I don't know why we'd want/need to be able to run that when we want to leverage Pascal and Scottie's usage out of the gates (and still have corner-shooting).

[Tha Cynic]

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Yeah his 3 pointer sucks. This was expected when he was drafted.

Why are we comparing him to guys who can shoot 3s? We should be comparing him to guys who can get to the free throw line and attack the rim.

He's also not like most basketball players. He's a forward who's trying to play guard. He has a bit of everything and excels most at passing. His focus again should be handled and finding ways to go downhill, while using his passing and mind range as a weapon. TS% doesn't matter to me right now. He was drafted knowing his offense is raw.

[HumbleRen]

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Yeah his 3 pointer sucks. This was expected when he was drafted.

TS% isn't just 3's. It's a culmination of your finishing at the rim, mid range, FT's, etc etc. Our entire starting line up was basically below average but for Scottie to be the worst out of them shows how much he truly struggled last year.