To tank or retool?

[Prestige]

Those are questions we asked in past seasons when this team was a treadmill team. Now at 25-57, they're not good enough for those discussions. First order of business is simply getting better players on the roster.

[PushDaRock]

We will tank without trying.

Yup

I said back at the start of this thread it is a trick question

Raptors, as they are currently constructed, just aren’t good enough. They are going to be 27-32 win bad without even trying.

Some crazy lopsided trades, massive draft home runs, and insane current player development will ALL be needed to change my opinion on that.

27 wins seems incredibly low (assuming team is mostly healthy) considering this team had a 15 game losing streak and played a G League Roster for 1/4 of the season and still managed 25 wins. Our core players are also young enough where you expect some sort of improvement. I just don't see how 27 wins is possible without pivoting to a tank at some point in the season.

[ArthurVandelay]

We will tank without trying.

Yup

I said back at the start of this thread it is a trick question

Raptors, as they are currently constructed, just aren’t good enough. They are going to be 27-32 win bad without even trying.

Some crazy lopsided trades, massive draft home runs, and insane current player development will ALL be needed to change my opinion on that.

27 wins seems incredibly low (assuming team is mostly healthy) considering this team had a 15 game losing streak and played a G League Roster for 1/4 of the season and still managed 25 wins. Our core players are also young enough where you expect some sort of improvement. I just don't see how 27 wins is possible without pivoting to a tank at some point in the season.

We'll see.

I think the pivot to a tank is a given. Just a matter of when.

[PushDaRock]

Yup

I said back at the start of this thread it is a trick question

Raptors, as they are currently constructed, just aren’t good enough. They are going to be 27-32 win bad without even trying.

Some crazy lopsided trades, massive draft home runs, and insane current player development will ALL be needed to change my opinion on that.

27 wins seems incredibly low (assuming team is mostly healthy) considering this team had a 15 game losing streak and played a G League Roster for 1/4 of the season and still managed 25 wins. Our core players are also young enough where you expect some sort of improvement. I just don't see how 27 wins is possible without pivoting to a tank at some point in the season.

We'll see.

I think the pivot to a tank is a given. Just a matter of when.

Sure, it's possible but that would take some "trying"

[ArthurVandelay]

27 wins seems incredibly low (assuming team is mostly healthy) considering this team had a 15 game losing streak and played a G League Roster for 1/4 of the season and still managed 25 wins. Our core players are also young enough where you expect some sort of improvement. I just don't see how 27 wins is possible without pivoting to a tank at some point in the season.

We'll see.

I think the pivot to a tank is a given. Just a matter of when.

Sure, it's possible but that would take some "trying"

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

[YogurtProducer]

We'll see.

I think the pivot to a tank is a given. Just a matter of when.

Sure, it's possible but that would take some "trying"

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

And if we were healthy (or not holding it’s out) for the last half of last season we also win more than 25 games.

I don’t think you seem to realize how bad you have to be to win 25 games without some extreme circumstances.

But if we don’t think IQ/RJ/Scottie are good enough to win even 30 games… what are we doing with them?

[PushDaRock]

We'll see.

I think the pivot to a tank is a given. Just a matter of when.

Sure, it's possible but that would take some "trying"

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

You were saying they would 27-32 games without trying to even tank, that implies that tanking for 20 wins is doable with some effort.

That would make this team one of the least talented teams in the league even fully healthy. If that's the case, we should be trading at least 2 of Scottie, RJ and IQ. No way should we be paying all 3 of them the kind of money they are making if they are this bad.

[ItsDanger]

Those are questions we asked in past seasons when this team was a treadmill team. Now at 25-57, they're not good enough for those discussions. First order of business is simply getting better players on the roster.

How do you tell a 6th worst team to tank?

[anotherhomer]

Yup

I said back at the start of this thread it is a trick question

Raptors, as they are currently constructed, just aren’t good enough. They are going to be 27-32 win bad without even trying.

Some crazy lopsided trades, massive draft home runs, and insane current player development will ALL be needed to change my opinion on that.

27 wins seems incredibly low (assuming team is mostly healthy) considering this team had a 15 game losing streak and played a G League Roster for 1/4 of the season and still managed 25 wins. Our core players are also young enough where you expect some sort of improvement. I just don't see how 27 wins is possible without pivoting to a tank at some point in the season.

We'll see.

I think the pivot to a tank is a given. Just a matter of when.

It's a corporate speak....they can't tell the MLSE board they will tank right away....

[PushDaRock]

Sure, it's possible but that would take some "trying"

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

And if we were healthy (or not holding it’s out) for the last half of last season we also win more than 25 games.

I don’t think you seem to realize how bad you have to be to win 25 games without some extreme circumstances.

But if we don’t think IQ/RJ/Scottie are good enough to win even 30 games… what are we doing with them?

Exactly, collectively they will be making over 100m between the 3 of them after the next season. They're heading into years 4,5 and 6 respectively for this upcoming one, that's right around their prime if not already in it for all of them. If we think they are going to be this bad leading us, we definitely shouldn't be building around them.

[Merit]

Yup

I said back at the start of this thread it is a trick question

Raptors, as they are currently constructed, just aren’t good enough. They are going to be 27-32 win bad without even trying.

Some crazy lopsided trades, massive draft home runs, and insane current player development will ALL be needed to change my opinion on that.

27 wins seems incredibly low (assuming team is mostly healthy) considering this team had a 15 game losing streak and played a G League Roster for 1/4 of the season and still managed 25 wins. Our core players are also young enough where you expect some sort of improvement. I just don't see how 27 wins is possible without pivoting to a tank at some point in the season.

We'll see.

I think the pivot to a tank is a given. Just a matter of when.

First time in a while where I feel that the raptors are properly rated by media as opposed to being underrated. Looking forward to being proven wrong - and am on the same page when it comes to leveraging any and all channels to improve.

#provem

[ArthurVandelay]

Sure, it's possible but that would take some "trying"

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

You were saying they would 27-32 games without trying to even tank, that implies that tanking for 20 wins is doable with some effort.

That would make this team one of the least talented teams in the league even fully healthy. If that's the case, we should be trading at least 2 of Scottie, RJ and IQ. No way should we be paying all 3 of them the kind of money they are making if they are this bad.

You need more than 3 guys.

[Merit]

Sure, it's possible but that would take some "trying"

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

And if we were healthy (or not holding it’s out) for the last half of last season we also win more than 25 games.

I don’t think you seem to realize how bad you have to be to win 25 games without some extreme circumstances.

But if we don’t think IQ/RJ/Scottie are good enough to win even 30 games… what are we doing with them?

I just think they haven’t proven anything yet.

Given last season was a tank, if they’re trash again - I’m hopeful that this season is one where they find out what they have in Scottie and what it’s going to take to build around him.

I don’t agree with Arthur vandelay. I do think they’re better than 30 wins. The only player of significance the raps may lose this offseason is GTJ. They can replace him.

They’re going to get two new rookie bodies at a minimum. They are going to have some cap space. Even in a developmental year they can make things happen.

As always, I’m an optimist.

[PushDaRock]

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

You were saying they would 27-32 games without trying to even tank, that implies that tanking for 20 wins is doable with some effort.

That would make this team one of the least talented teams in the league even fully healthy. If that's the case, we should be trading at least 2 of Scottie, RJ and IQ. No way should we be paying all 3 of them the kind of money they are making if they are this bad.

You need more than 3 guys.

To do what? Win more than 30 games?

[Merit]

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

You were saying they would 27-32 games without trying to even tank, that implies that tanking for 20 wins is doable with some effort.

That would make this team one of the least talented teams in the league even fully healthy. If that's the case, we should be trading at least 2 of Scottie, RJ and IQ. No way should we be paying all 3 of them the kind of money they are making if they are this bad.

You need more than 3 guys.

Do you mean they need a bench? If so, I agree.

They currently have BBQ, Poeltl, Kelly, Gradey and Brown who are their top 7.

That can be improved for sure.

[Merit]

Right. And if they tried their best for a full 82 games, do you see them at .500? I sure don't. So if you can't get to .500, what are you really playing for? They need another player at the same calibre of Scottie at minimum. Those guys come from the lottery.

The "if they are healthy" and "young guys continued development" arguments ignores those same realities exist for other teams as well.

And if we were healthy (or not holding it’s out) for the last half of last season we also win more than 25 games.

I don’t think you seem to realize how bad you have to be to win 25 games without some extreme circumstances.

But if we don’t think IQ/RJ/Scottie are good enough to win even 30 games… what are we doing with them?

Exactly, collectively they will be making over 100m between the 3 of them after the next season. They're heading into years 4,5 and 6 respectively for this upcoming one, that's right around their prime if not already in it for all of them. If we think they are going to be this bad leading us, we definitely shouldn't be building around them.

Good thing 100 mil is the new 50 mil given the new rights deals coming up. We’re playing long term games.

[canada_dry]

I doubt MLSE would ever okay entering a season with the plan to tank. Maximizing ticket sales is all they care about. That being said this team has a massive talent deficiency both top end talent wise and depth wise. Obvious answer is accumulating top assets (tanking) but that's never gonna happen.

The one positive with the parity around the league, combined with the lottery odds, is teams do not need to tank the full season for a shot at a decent pick. They can choose to tank hard halfway or even in the last third of the season, and put themselves in a position to get a high pick.

Correct. Its worked for us before.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[canada_dry]

Need a third option...

Development year.

No tank. BBQ in full effect and we only add a few pieces around the margins.
Trade Brown for pieces-hopefully a pick.
Draft 2-3 guys and maybe a 4th drafted rookie on 2-way

In total we'll go looking for a backup pg and big man and more two way players. Then Scottie and team will be allowed to win as many games as they can. Which will probably be in the 35-45 win range depending on development/injuries etc.

At that point we'll know if BBQ is the real deal or if big changes needed.

That's where im at

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[ArthurVandelay]

You were saying they would 27-32 games without trying to even tank, that implies that tanking for 20 wins is doable with some effort.

That would make this team one of the least talented teams in the league even fully healthy. If that's the case, we should be trading at least 2 of Scottie, RJ and IQ. No way should we be paying all 3 of them the kind of money they are making if they are this bad.

You need more than 3 guys.

To do what? Win more than 30 games?

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

[WuTang_CMB]

The biggest issue for this team is the lack of depth and defense. 2 common things for a rebuilding club. Masai will add some picks, maybe a signing and hope to be competitive. At best we are a team in 8-10 play in, and a lot needs to go right for that to happen. Big jumps from BBQ, improvement on defense, better coaching and like 90% healthy. This team won't last with any injuries especially if its Scottie or Poeltl.

Ultimately I think we pivot to a mid season tank once season is lost and hope for the best in the lottery.

BBQ Dick is a good starting base but you need more top end talent