Official Play-in Thread - Our Play-in Destiny is in our Hands

[Shakril]

If they are able to compete and get back in the race it would mean there have been serious improvements. I can't see them going on a ten game win streak but I wouldn't mind seeing it happen. I would hope it means Barnes, RJ, Dick, or IQ has come into the next level and propelled us.

Winning and getting to the play in would mean we have some great pieces on our team. They'd be pieces with higher value that other teams would be willing to pay a good price for. As a tanking team it seems like our players values takes a nose dive.

A example that would outline what I mentioned would be Poeltl. He's a forgotten role player, but if we were in the top 6 of our conference he would get a lot of praise and therefore have higher value.

"The team is butcheeks bro [insert emoji, insert gif]"

"TWO FOREVER!"

signed: a bunch of low energy incels.

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

I don't think you grasp how the NBA system is set up for teams to get better.

Yes. By having competent managment, that is capable of identifiying talent. That talent then will be developed in so rebuilding seasons, in which winning habits are beeing taught and how to play the right way. Competitive play its called.
Talent can be aquired through free agency, trade or the draft. The first two are the better versions, cause ideally you already know what they are capable of doing, so its not a surprise package like in the draft.

Tanking goes against all of that and is only a way to endless suffering until a miracle happens and you become a watchable team, but not a contender. Essentially its fo gambling addicts.

[YogurtProducer]

TWO is not gonna be happy with this thread.

Any sane fan is not going like this thread.

Any sane fans ist not for tanking. Cause any sane fan knows tanking is a lost cause that never ever has worked.

Ehhhhh you get to a point where it’s just logical to go for it.

I’m not for throwing seasons away before they start, but 11-32 or whatever we were is pretty close to you might as well let it go.

[Shakril]

So still it's all in my head?

You got me.

In my defense, 1-2 guys don’t make a team.

And both of those two individuals love Poeltl more than anyone else too. Maybe it's one individual with two accounts - who knows

Or maybe, those individuals use their brain and dont resort to insults as a way of communications.
It kinda helps seeing the things as they are, and not as you wish them to be.
But i understand, shouting "tanking" is easier than actually look at how its really done.

[Shakril]

Any sane fan is not going like this thread.

Any sane fans ist not for tanking. Cause any sane fan knows tanking is a lost cause that never ever has worked.

Ehhhhh you get to a point where it’s just logical to go for it.

I’m not for throwing seasons away before they start, but 11-32 or whatever we were is pretty close to you might as well let it go.

I have no problem with getting a high pick, but it cant be by sacrificing development. So for me its not important if we have the 4th of 10th pick, but if our players that we currently have are making a step forward.

I rather have a well oiled machine as a team and be attractive for Players in Free Agency and Trades than create the trainwreck that tanking is.

The Sixers created the biggest tank of all time and their ceiling was a 2nd round exits against us in 2019.

[DG88]

Any sane fans ist not for tanking. Cause any sane fan knows tanking is a lost cause that never ever has worked.

Ehhhhh you get to a point where it’s just logical to go for it.

I’m not for throwing seasons away before they start, but 11-32 or whatever we were is pretty close to you might as well let it go.

I have no problem with getting a high pick, but it cant be by sacrificing development. So for me its not important if we have the 4th of 10th pick, but if our players that we currently have are making a step forward.

I rather have a well oiled machine as a team and be attractive for Players in Free Agency and Trades than create the trainwreck that tanking is.

The Sixers created the biggest tank of all time and their ceiling was a 2nd round exits against us in 2019.

I see this again with the misconceptions of tanking and the posters that want to tank. It's because it has a negative connotation to it. Most of not all tankers look at it as the first steps in a rebuild to get talent in the draft. You can discuss the merits because of lottery luck, but foundationally it's about getting more young talent on the roster that you can build with. Those young players grow and either are kept or can be used to add other talented players in trades. You then add good vets around them to show them how to win. Once they get that taste of playoffs then the hardest part comes, building at championship team. But you still need those foundational blocks first. Toronto isn't a free agent destination let's be real here. Unless you're a team in New York, South Beach, Arizona, Texas or California you ain't getting a top tier free agent. So our best bet is using the draft. The higher the pick the higher the odds of getting the best talent.

[YogurtProducer]

Ehhhhh you get to a point where it’s just logical to go for it.

I’m not for throwing seasons away before they start, but 11-32 or whatever we were is pretty close to you might as well let it go.

I have no problem with getting a high pick, but it cant be by sacrificing development. So for me its not important if we have the 4th of 10th pick, but if our players that we currently have are making a step forward.

I rather have a well oiled machine as a team and be attractive for Players in Free Agency and Trades than create the trainwreck that tanking is.

The Sixers created the biggest tank of all time and their ceiling was a 2nd round exits against us in 2019.

I see thid again with the misconceptions of tanking and the posters that want to tank. It's because it has a negative connotation to it. Most of not all tankers look at it as the first steps in a rebuild to get talent in the draft. You can discuss the merits because of lottery luck, but foundationally it's about getting more young talent on the roster that you can build with. Those young players grow and either are kept or can be used to add other talented players in trades. You then add good vets around them to show them how to win. Once they get that taste of playoffs then the hardest part comes, building at championship team. But you still need those foundational blocks first. Toronto isn't a free agent destination let's be real here. Unless you're a team in New York, South Beach, Arizona, Texas or California you ain't getting a top tier free agent. So our best bet is using the draft. The higher the pick the higher the odds of getting the best talent.

All true, but then the irony is that a lot of the best Raptors of all time were acquired outside of the top of the draft., and the ones that were picked high in the draft we were unable to surround them with other "stuff".

I am really not going to lose sleep over having the 3rd best or 5th best or 7th best odds. If we actually make a big run here in the second half it means we are improving. Now, eventually you hope to see some "tanking" moves where guys are "hurt" or whatever (and trade the old guard), but again the lottery is still a lottery.

Is it better to gut the roster with the 3rd best odds or keep most of it intact and have the 8th? IDK. Better odds = more work to be done in the future. It is an interesting conundrum.

[DG88]

I have no problem with getting a high pick, but it cant be by sacrificing development. So for me its not important if we have the 4th of 10th pick, but if our players that we currently have are making a step forward.

I rather have a well oiled machine as a team and be attractive for Players in Free Agency and Trades than create the trainwreck that tanking is.

The Sixers created the biggest tank of all time and their ceiling was a 2nd round exits against us in 2019.

I see thid again with the misconceptions of tanking and the posters that want to tank. It's because it has a negative connotation to it. Most of not all tankers look at it as the first steps in a rebuild to get talent in the draft. You can discuss the merits because of lottery luck, but foundationally it's about getting more young talent on the roster that you can build with. Those young players grow and either are kept or can be used to add other talented players in trades. You then add good vets around them to show them how to win. Once they get that taste of playoffs then the hardest part comes, building at championship team. But you still need those foundational blocks first. Toronto isn't a free agent destination let's be real here. Unless you're a team in New York, South Beach, Arizona, Texas or California you ain't getting a top tier free agent. So our best bet is using the draft. The higher the pick the higher the odds of getting the best talent.

All true, but then the irony is that a lot of the best Raptors of all time were acquired outside of the top of the draft., and the ones that were picked high in the draft we were unable to surround them with other "stuff".

I am really not going to lose sleep over having the 3rd best or 5th best or 7th best odds. If we actually make a big run here in the second half it means we are improving. Now, eventually you hope to see some "tanking" moves where guys are "hurt" or whatever (and trade the old guard), but again the lottery is still a lottery.

Is it better to gut the roster with the 3rd best odds or keep most of it intact and have the 8th? IDK. Better odds = more work to be done in the future. It is an interesting conundrum.

Each team has the own ways of going about it. The Wizards are going scorched Earth because they don't have a centrepiece to work with. The Jazz imo are shameless tankers that posters like Shakril would lose their mind over. Then you have our team that has some piece but is still short on talent. I agree we have gotten some of our best players later in the draft. Though don't forget we were hamstrung by expansion rules not allowing us to get the top pick in the draft. For a few years. We could have drafted Iverson but because of that rule we got the 2nd pick and drafted Camby. Also when Masai took over he was about to trade Lowry after trading away Rudy Gay but that team figured it out and the era of We the North began. Regardless of which strategy you go with luck is involved. Yet for the Raptors we know that we won't bring in free agents and with the new CBA, having cost controlled contracts are going to be a premium.

I still think we trade Brown and a few of the vets except Poeltl, get more assets and sit players that have minor injuries. Scottie probably can't with the NBA resting rules.

[canada_dry]

This is not real...lol

inconvenient truth...we're too good! -Phil Blackson

[canada_dry]

Saw the thread title and it made me irrationally angry. I can't imagine what Del is going to go through when he logs in and sees this.

Let's hope we are firmly out of the play-in when the season ends.

So still it's all in my head?

1. "It's good to win once in a while"
2. "A few wins from our young core showing out is worth the growth"
3. "3-1 in our last 4 games. Play-in baybee!!"

progression of team mediocre mindset

It's all in your head...

Yes. Lmao. Read the room brother.

inconvenient truth...we're too good! -Phil Blackson

[ItsDanger]

I see thid again with the misconceptions of tanking and the posters that want to tank. It's because it has a negative connotation to it. Most of not all tankers look at it as the first steps in a rebuild to get talent in the draft. You can discuss the merits because of lottery luck, but foundationally it's about getting more young talent on the roster that you can build with. Those young players grow and either are kept or can be used to add other talented players in trades. You then add good vets around them to show them how to win. Once they get that taste of playoffs then the hardest part comes, building at championship team. But you still need those foundational blocks first. Toronto isn't a free agent destination let's be real here. Unless you're a team in New York, South Beach, Arizona, Texas or California you ain't getting a top tier free agent. So our best bet is using the draft. The higher the pick the higher the odds of getting the best talent.

All true, but then the irony is that a lot of the best Raptors of all time were acquired outside of the top of the draft., and the ones that were picked high in the draft we were unable to surround them with other "stuff".

I am really not going to lose sleep over having the 3rd best or 5th best or 7th best odds. If we actually make a big run here in the second half it means we are improving. Now, eventually you hope to see some "tanking" moves where guys are "hurt" or whatever (and trade the old guard), but again the lottery is still a lottery.

Is it better to gut the roster with the 3rd best odds or keep most of it intact and have the 8th? IDK. Better odds = more work to be done in the future. It is an interesting conundrum.

Each team has the own ways of going about it. The Wizards are going scorched Earth because they don't have a centrepiece to work with. The Jazz imo are shameless tankers that posters like Shakril would lose their mind over. Then you have our team that has some piece but is still short on talent. I agree we have gotten some of our best players later in the draft. Though don't forget we were hamstrung by expansion rules not allowing us to get the top pick in the draft. For a few years. We could have drafted Iverson but because of that rule we got the 2nd pick and drafted Camby. Also when Masai took over he was about to trade Lowry after trading away Rudy Gay but that team figured it out and the era of We the North began. Regardless of which strategy you go with luck is involved. Yet for the Raptors we know that we won't bring in free agents and with the new CBA, having cost controlled contracts are going to be a premium.

I still think we trade Brown and a few of the vets except Poeltl, get more assets and sit players that have minor injuries. Scottie probably can't with the NBA resting rules.

Dolan overruled the GM on Lowry trade to Knicks as per many reports since then. Who knows if its true or whether Masai got cold feet. Most believe the former. Regardless, luck always plays a role.

[tsherkin]

but 15th pick led championship teams in 2021 and 2019

And how likely is it, do you think, that we'll see that in this draft? Giannis was a foreign pick as a teenager who panned out insanely well. Kawhi is a 2-time DPOY who dramatically improved on offense over his career, learning from the Spurs before joining us in what was essentially his last gasp of relevance before his health and load management issues basically destroyed him.

The obvious counterpoint is how many #1s have led titles vs how many #15s, right?

[tsherkin]

[
I think what folks don't realize is that tanking is not just a basketball decision, it's one that impacts the operations and ultimately the sustainability of an organization.

The NBA has actively tried to discourage tanking by introduces the flattened odds system. The league knows that all out tanking sets franchises back years, because the odds of getting a top pick that is actually a generational talent, who stays healthy are very low. Also, as we see on countless occasions having a top pick doesn't mean teams know who the best player is in a draft.

The negative risk to the integrity, structure, and sustainability of the organization as a result of tanking is very high. I wish it was as easy as just throwing a season away, but the odds are unfortunately not in our favour with this strategy.

The problem, of course, is that there are basically two paths to actually getting any good: landing that generational talent, or stocking up on picks and young prospects who you move for a disgruntled star.

There is almost no chance of real contention without following one of those paths.

[DelAbbot]

but 15th pick led championship teams in 2021 and 2019

And how likely is it, do you think, that we'll see that in this draft? Giannis was a foreign pick as a teenager who panned out insanely well. Kawhi is a 2-time DPOY who dramatically improved on offense over his career, learning from the Spurs before joining us in what was essentially his last gasp of relevance before his health and load management issues basically destroyed him.

The obvious counterpoint is how many #1s have led titles vs how many #15s, right?

I was being sarcastic. You have articulated where I could only use sarcasm to explain my thoughts

[tsherkin]

but 15th pick led championship teams in 2021 and 2019

And how likely is it, do you think, that we'll see that in this draft? Giannis was a foreign pick as a teenager who panned out insanely well. Kawhi is a 2-time DPOY who dramatically improved on offense over his career, learning from the Spurs before joining us in what was essentially his last gasp of relevance before his health and load management issues basically destroyed him.

The obvious counterpoint is how many #1s have led titles vs how many #15s, right?

I was being sarcastic. You have articulated where I could only use sarcasm to explain my thoughts

My misread, then; sorry.

[deck]

[
I think what folks don't realize is that tanking is not just a basketball decision, it's one that impacts the operations and ultimately the sustainability of an organization.

The NBA has actively tried to discourage tanking by introduces the flattened odds system. The league knows that all out tanking sets franchises back years, because the odds of getting a top pick that is actually a generational talent, who stays healthy are very low. Also, as we see on countless occasions having a top pick doesn't mean teams know who the best player is in a draft.

The negative risk to the integrity, structure, and sustainability of the organization as a result of tanking is very high. I wish it was as easy as just throwing a season away, but the odds are unfortunately not in our favour with this strategy.

The problem, of course, is that there are basically two paths to actually getting any good: landing that generational talent, or stocking up on picks and young prospects who you move for a disgruntled star.

There is almost no chance of real contention without following one of those paths.

We are less the 6 years removed from winning a championship without following either of those paths.

We had very average draft talent in 2014 when we started making our playoff push, we certainly didn't have a generational talent.

We didn't stockpile draft picks or young prospects.

The third path is to build value in the team you have, and make savvy moves to acquire the players you need. This is how we won in 2019.

[tsherkin]

We are less the 6 years removed from winning a championship without following either of those paths.

And what do you think the Kawhi trade was? A disgruntled star we moved assets for. It certainly wasn't a ton of youth and only the one pick, but it's the same concept.

Meantime, in order to get to that point, we sucked for years and acquired assets who weren't that good for a while, incrementally developing until they developed value. Along the way, we became a reasonably decent regular season team with no actual potential to exit the conference, and then got staggeringly lucky with a high-end guy who wanted out and the context stars aligned for us.

The point is, we're cooked if we don't acquire talent, and you generally don't acquire talent with crappy picks coming from mediocre seasons.

[wegotthabeet]

Nah we’re finishing bottom 6 and moving up to draft Flagg. The tank has been too ethical to not please the gods.

[djsunyc]

thread created to talk about going for play-in

nope

let's hijack it to talk about the same tank/dont tank sh t again.

are some of you unable to talk about anything else?

[deck]

We are less the 6 years removed from winning a championship without following either of those paths.

And what do you think the Kawhi trade was? A disgruntled star we moved assets for. It certainly wasn't a ton of youth and only the one pick, but it's the same concept.

Meantime, in order to get to that point, we sucked for years and acquired assets who weren't that good for a while, incrementally developing until they developed value. Along the way, we became a reasonably decent regular season team with no actual potential to exit the conference, and then got staggeringly lucky with a high-end guy who wanted out and the context stars aligned for us.

The point is, we're cooked if we don't acquire talent, and you generally don't acquire talent with crappy picks coming from mediocre seasons.

We developed value in our team by being a perennial playoff team, not by acquiring highly touted talent via the draft. The simple fact is the draft talent we started our playoff push with was very middling. Derozan, JV, Poeltl, Ross and Wright.

I ask this question often when this specific topic comes up, and I find folks generally don't respond after being posed with this question. If we had our 2013 roster right now, would you advocate for exiting the lottery and trying to make pushes for the playoffs? And remember, Lowry in 2013 was not the player he would go on to become.

I find people don't respond to that question, because we all know the draft assets we started the run to 2019 with is not a core of players that meets the criteria of a good drafting outcome. And I think it is likely we have equal or better prospects on our roster right now than we did in 2013.

So the point is, we are not cooked if we don't tank for another 2 to 3 seasons. There are lots of ways to be successful, and this narrative that there are limited paths forward is proven false through our own franchises history.

[Tacoma]

I have no problem with getting a high pick, but it cant be by sacrificing development. So for me its not important if we have the 4th of 10th pick, but if our players that we currently have are making a step forward.

I rather have a well oiled machine as a team and be attractive for Players in Free Agency and Trades than create the trainwreck that tanking is.

The Sixers created the biggest tank of all time and their ceiling was a 2nd round exits against us in 2019.

I see thid again with the misconceptions of tanking and the posters that want to tank. It's because it has a negative connotation to it. Most of not all tankers look at it as the first steps in a rebuild to get talent in the draft. You can discuss the merits because of lottery luck, but foundationally it's about getting more young talent on the roster that you can build with. Those young players grow and either are kept or can be used to add other talented players in trades. You then add good vets around them to show them how to win. Once they get that taste of playoffs then the hardest part comes, building at championship team. But you still need those foundational blocks first. Toronto isn't a free agent destination let's be real here. Unless you're a team in New York, South Beach, Arizona, Texas or California you ain't getting a top tier free agent. So our best bet is using the draft. The higher the pick the higher the odds of getting the best talent.

All true, but then the irony is that a lot of the best Raptors of all time were acquired outside of the top of the draft., and the ones that were picked high in the draft we were unable to surround them with other "stuff".

I am really not going to lose sleep over having the 3rd best or 5th best or 7th best odds. If we actually make a big run here in the second half it means we are improving. Now, eventually you hope to see some "tanking" moves where guys are "hurt" or whatever (and trade the old guard), but again the lottery is still a lottery.

Is it better to gut the roster with the 3rd best odds or keep most of it intact and have the 8th? IDK. Better odds = more work to be done in the future. It is an interesting conundrum.

If I throw a coin 6x and it comes up heads each time it's not an irony because it wasn't a 50/50 split. Drafting the best available player requires an element of luck. Having outliers doesn't mean the odds were wrong or make it ironic. If Masai is great at the draft, we want the pool of players available to him to select from to be as great as possible. That's all it is.