Masai: "Scottie isn't a shot maker right now but that will grow. You build around him for his winning mentality"

[Tripod]

The year we won the title, Kyle Lowry averaged 14.2 points per game, and was one of our best 2 or three players. Scottie Barnes is tracking to be a Lowry type, where he does a lot of things that help you win games, without being a high volume scorer.

I love Scottie, but we knew that Lowry had already proven himself to be capable of being a high level scorer before 2019

In 2016 and 2017 he averaged 21, 7 and 5 and then 22, 7 and 5 on solid efficiency. He reduced his role because we got Kawhi and Siakam was ascending into a star. The year after Kawhi left he averaged nearly 20ppg again.

Kyle was consistently a top-10 player in impact metrics, scoring efficiently and playing elite defence. Scottie is nowhere near his level.

At age 23? You know, when he was shooting 27.2% from 3.

This is why talking in absolutes is silly. Kyle's 1st AS game was at age 28. Yak's FT shooting jumped this year...who saw that coming.

Just sit back, and enjoy the ride next year when we can cheer for wins compared to losses. Let things play out as they will.

[TheLP]

Iggy on roids is a pretty damn good winning player. If that's what he tops out to being, you take it and keep adding more. Just like how Kyle was so crucial to winning on the floor. The do it all mentality is what Masai is alluding to and Scottie has those same traits.

Agreed. Like I have said in other threads.......if Iggy & KG had a baby, that is Scottie Barnes. He is somewhere in between those two.

You can't tell.me that player isn't a winning player.

It's a big assumption to characterize Barnes as a better player than Iguodala.

Also, you can't build around Iguodala for exactly the same reason you can't build around OG even though they're both winning players.

I'm glad to see the Iggy comparisons because that's what I thought when I read the quote and it's what I often think about when I watch Barnes.

Philly tried to build around AI 2.0 for nearly a decade before moving on. And then when Iggy got the chance, he went to the absolute perfect role in Golden State and won what? 4 rings and a Finals MVP? iirc he grew up in Chicago a fan of Scottie Pippen? He knew he wasn't the MJ and was excited to get a chance to be part of a great team instead of forcing himself into the role of "the guy". Gotta love players that understand their role.

Winning player is an understatement when it comes to iggy but is he the guy you build around as "The Guy"... No probably not. And it's a reasonable question to ask about Scottie because he's still young and the evidence isn't there to class him as the cornerstone superstar just yet.

If you were to say he has a ceiling of Kawhi and floor of Iggy, it's an incredible blessing for a franchise but it also puts them in drastically different spots.

[Tha Cynic]

KD was the second option in GSW. Defences focused on Steph, leaving him to deal with single coverage.

Boston has a top-10 player and a top-20 player in their primes, that they drafted. We don't even have a single top-20 player on this roster. We have the depth, but not the top-end talent. Getting that top-end talent is the hard part. Team's don't exactly trade their Tatums every year. Which current (not about to retire) superstar could be unhappy in their present situation and demand out soon? I can't think of anyone.

We can go back and forth on this underrating of what Durant did with the Warriors, so I’ll stop. It’s not based on fact but media driven drivel.

But Booker hasn’t been a better player than Durant. Durant is older now so there is a concern, but main thing is that the Raptors are trying to build a team that is good across the board. This is year 1 of that. They have the pieces to acquire a superstar in the future imo, one that wouldn’t have to carry the team in his back. My point is someone like a Durant, not Durant specifically.

Ingram is a Brown level player at the least. Barnes last season actually had better than Brown’s peak season from an impact point. I don’t think we’re as far off. If we progress like we have this season with depth, we are getting to a point where we can trade multiple firsts for a superstar type.

Ignore the names and look at it more from an ideology perspective

In the near term? How? There are multiple teams laying in wait for a superstar. Those teams all have larger asset bases than us and some are in more desirable markets than ours. The price of stars has skyrocketed in the last 5 years and we don’t have the ammo to compete in a bidding war. How are we competing with the likes of OKC, HOU, SAS, BKN or UTA if a star trade materializes?

You have to also want to trade for said player. We could have traded for Durant or Dame for example. It depends on how good our team is so that we are willing to give up what is required to get that player. Houston and OKC so far have been very hesitant to make trades. Assets in trade mean nothing if you don’t plan to use it for a trade.

[AbC?]

Scottie is going to cost Masai his job, deservedly so.

He is what Bargnani was to Bryan Colangelo. Delusional faith in the guy he drafted.

[james vincent]

I like him more as a Swiss Army knife/decoy sort of player in the vein of iggy/draymond/battier/odom/marion mold (I know that was a lot of comparisons).

If Toronto can mold him as a high intangibles player (similar to Kyle Lowry), then I would have more confidence in Scotty as a championship calibre player.

Granted, he’s very young but even young players exhibit qualities and characteristics (currently) that you can see staying the same much later on in their careers.

How many of use saw the writing on the wall during the earlier years of bosh, bargnani and derozan?

Two of those three players fulfilled their potential but we’d seen (most) of what they were during their rookie deals.

Sure, they made some remarkable improvements to their game but many of us noticed (right away) that they wouldn’t become superstars; there’s nothing wrong with not being a 1st option but it is what it is at this point.

Let’s stop trying to pigeon hole Barnes into a role and a person he’s not.

Giving and labelling him a franchise player tag is putting an unfair target on his back similar to Siakam and the players I listed above. But I get it, we need to sell tickets (and hope).

[Raps in 4]

I love Scottie, but we knew that Lowry had already proven himself to be capable of being a high level scorer before 2019

In 2016 and 2017 he averaged 21, 7 and 5 and then 22, 7 and 5 on solid efficiency. He reduced his role because we got Kawhi and Siakam was ascending into a star. The year after Kawhi left he averaged nearly 20ppg again.

Kyle was consistently a top-10 player in impact metrics, scoring efficiently and playing elite defence. Scottie is nowhere near his level.

At age 23? You know, when he was shooting 27.2% from 3.

This is why talking in absolutes is silly. Kyle's 1st AS game was at age 28. Yak's FT shooting jumped this year...who saw that coming.

Just sit back, and enjoy the ride next year when we can cheer for wins compared to losses. Let things play out as they will.

Lowry was a late bloomer. That type of career trajectory is an outlier.

[Raps in 4]

I love Scottie, but we knew that Lowry had already proven himself to be capable of being a high level scorer before 2019

In 2016 and 2017 he averaged 21, 7 and 5 and then 22, 7 and 5 on solid efficiency. He reduced his role because we got Kawhi and Siakam was ascending into a star. The year after Kawhi left he averaged nearly 20ppg again.

Kyle was consistently a top-10 player in impact metrics, scoring efficiently and playing elite defence. Scottie is nowhere near his level.

This just in, a 30 year old player is better than a 23 year old lol

Like damn guys, I by no means think Scottie is going to be a primary scorer or superstar, but comparing him to someone in their 13th or 14th year is I dunno, kinda stupid?

The original post made the claim that:

Scottie Barnes is tracking to be a Lowry type, where he does a lot of things that help you win games, without being a high volume scorer.

Scottie Barnes is not tracking to be a Lowry-type player. Hell, Lowry at 23 was not tracking to be a Lowry-type player. Kyle experienced a late career breakout, something that isn't exactly common. Expecting Scottie to take that step is expecting a lot, given his lack of development so far.

Could it still happen? Sure, and I haven't fully lost hope. But time is running out. We're in year 4 now. Many of his peers have shot past him in their development, while Scottie is still, more or less, the same player he was when we drafted him.

[Tripod]

Kyle was consistently a top-10 player in impact metrics, scoring efficiently and playing elite defence. Scottie is nowhere near his level.

At age 23? You know, when he was shooting 27.2% from 3.

This is why talking in absolutes is silly. Kyle's 1st AS game was at age 28. Yak's FT shooting jumped this year...who saw that coming.

Just sit back, and enjoy the ride next year when we can cheer for wins compared to losses. Let things play out as they will.

Lowry was a late bloomer. That type of career trajectory is an outlier.

Agreed. But Barnes was also deemed a long term project who would take longer to reach his peak compared to others in his draft class. And yet he won ROTY and was the 1st All Star. Everyone see that coming? No.

People have been wrong about him already yet seems so certain to know exactly what his future is. Absolutes are silly.

[myzticle]

I dont think he will but siakam is shooting .400 from 3s this year so there is a chance?

[tsherkin]

Scottie Barnes is not tracking to be a Lowry-type player. Hell, Lowry at 23 was not tracking to be a Lowry-type player. Kyle experienced a late career breakout, something that isn't exactly common. Expecting Scottie to take that step is expecting a lot, given his lack of development so far.

TBF, at 23, Lowry was an 82.7% FT shooter with a .560 FTr who was showing some signs, but was very much a work in progress, for sure. But he had tools which some others do not. Physical tools relative to position which made sense, the framework for good shooting, elite draw ability, a strong handle, etc. There were many more pieces of the puzzle in place.

[tsherkin]

I dont think he will but siakam is shooting .400 from 3s this year so there is a chance?

No one wants to wait a decade for Scottie to stop sucking from 3, is a bit the point on that one. And Pascal was shooting well from the corner far earlier than Scottie is now. Wouldn't call it much of a chance, unless Barnes is reduced to a role well beneath the value of his contract.

[MEDIC]

Kyle was consistently a top-10 player in impact metrics, scoring efficiently and playing elite defence. Scottie is nowhere near his level.

At age 23? You know, when he was shooting 27.2% from 3.

This is why talking in absolutes is silly. Kyle's 1st AS game was at age 28. Yak's FT shooting jumped this year...who saw that coming.

Just sit back, and enjoy the ride next year when we can cheer for wins compared to losses. Let things play out as they will.

Lowry was a late bloomer. That type of career trajectory is an outlier.

Steve Nash, Chauncy Billups.

There are tons. A lot more than people think.

If Scottie can do what he does at 23, where do you think he will be 5 years from now when he matures & has more experience?

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

Another similarity between Lowry & Barnes is they both had emotional maturity issues in their early 20's.

I think Scottie is going to be a championship piece once he gets to those prime.years.

[ForeverTFC]

If we look at the fact that he said he’s a core piece, and then if you read more of what he said outside of that quote, what he’s telling us is that he’s one of the main guys, but he alone isn’t enough. We need more and they’re trying to accumulate talent to acquire that piece.

Yeah, I hear that. Like I said earlier, though, it doesn't really salve my concerns. I acknowledge I might be reading too deeply into the pessimist stance, but that's where I'm at.

I think even the biggest detractors will agree that Barnes has shown enough to be a very important core piece to a very good team.

Assuming we can pivot his scoring role, yes, he has valuable tools to offer on D and as a playmaker.

I hear you. The bet on Barnes has been the big question mark for me through this era.

With that said, I found this quote interesting:

As soon as we get those two phenomenal, incredible players, and we already have one in Scottie Barnes, or two and a half of them, or three of them

This is the first time that he's moved that number up. Its always been "we have Scottie and we need another player to emerge." This remark, along with the acquisition of BI, tells me they're cooling a bit on their Barnes dreams.

Yeah, that actually worries me, because he is framing Scottie as that kind of player. I hear you as far as acknowledging the need for more, but discussing Barnes as one of those two is so far off-base for me as to remain concerning.

FWIW, Zach Lowe said in the summer that the Raptors FO truly believes Scottie has the potential to be a top 10 player. I've wondered for a while now what it is that I'm missing.

[sidsid]

Iggy on roids is a pretty damn good winning player. If that's what he tops out to being, you take it and keep adding more. Just like how Kyle was so crucial to winning on the floor. The do it all mentality is what Masai is alluding to and Scottie has those same traits.

Masai understands the Lowry aspects of Barnes game that are intuitive on both sides of the ball to stir the drink and easy plug and play, but doesn't grasp the context that his game doesn't mesh with Jak on the floor.

Fundamentally his thoughts on team building here are off, which is the main problem to the goal he wants to get to.

The mention of 2 guys vs. 3 I think remains just a post-rationalization for his retooling approach. He mentions OKC having 3 guys, but he knows it'll be hard to do this in a retool because we won't have the assets to make moves for 2 guys. He'll likely get one shot to put his chips in like the Durant/Dame scenarios of the past, and that's what the team will be after that. Unlike OKC who could add Giannis without touching their 3 guys.

[tsherkin]

FWIW, Zach Lowe said in the summer that the Raptors FO truly believes Scottie has the potential to be a top 10 player.

If that is true, then they are very stupid. Far dumber than I was thinking. I hope this is not the case.

[MEDIC]

I like him more as a Swiss Army knife/decoy sort of player in the vein of iggy/draymond/battier/odom/marion mold (I know that was a lot of comparisons).

If Toronto can mold him as a high intangibles player (similar to Kyle Lowry), then I would have more confidence in Scotty as a championship calibre player.

Granted, he’s very young but even young players exhibit qualities and characteristics (currently) that you can see staying the same much later on in their careers.

How many of use saw the writing on the wall during the earlier years of bosh, bargnani and derozan?

Two of those three players fulfilled their potential but we’d seen (most) of what they were during their rookie deals.

Sure, they made some remarkable improvements to their game but many of us noticed (right away) that they wouldn’t become superstars; there’s nothing wrong with not being a 1st option but it is what it is at this point.

Let’s stop trying to pigeon hole Barnes into a role and a person he’s not.

Giving and labelling him a franchise player tag is putting an unfair target on his back similar to Siakam and the players I listed above. But I get it, we need to sell tickets (and hope).

100% this.

Players can still be stars & championship calibre players without shooting 40% from 3 or averaging 25ppg.

I hope they utilize Scotties gifts to the fullest rather than trying to develop him into something he is not.

Like I said previously........it is impossible to accurately assess Scottie this season. He is the type of player that excels when he has good/ experienced talent around him.

Those are all great player comps BTW. I think Scotties offensive ceiling is higher than most of those guys though.

[Raps in 4]

At age 23? You know, when he was shooting 27.2% from 3.

This is why talking in absolutes is silly. Kyle's 1st AS game was at age 28. Yak's FT shooting jumped this year...who saw that coming.

Just sit back, and enjoy the ride next year when we can cheer for wins compared to losses. Let things play out as they will.

Lowry was a late bloomer. That type of career trajectory is an outlier.

Steve Nash, Chauncy Billups.

There are tons. A lot more than people think.

If Scottie can do what he does at 23, where do you think he will be 5 years from now when he matures & has more experience?

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

Another similarity between Lowry & Barnes is they both had emotional maturity issues in their early 20's.

I think Scottie is going to be a championship piece once he gets to those prime.years.

People don't want Scottie to be a star right now, but they do expect to see some sort of growth in his game. Right now, there isn't much cause for optimism, other than blind faith in "our guy".

[PushDaRock]

At age 23? You know, when he was shooting 27.2% from 3.

This is why talking in absolutes is silly. Kyle's 1st AS game was at age 28. Yak's FT shooting jumped this year...who saw that coming.

Just sit back, and enjoy the ride next year when we can cheer for wins compared to losses. Let things play out as they will.

Lowry was a late bloomer. That type of career trajectory is an outlier.

Steve Nash, Chauncy Billups.

There are tons. A lot more than people think.

If Scottie can do what he does at 23, where do you think he will be 5 years from now when he matures & has more experience?

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

Another similarity between Lowry & Barnes is they both had emotional maturity issues in their early 20's.

I think Scottie is going to be a championship piece once he gets to those prime.years.

I see these sorts of late bloomer comparisons often for Scottie but they don't make a lot of sense. You can't say he's lacked opportunities since getting into this league. He's been a day 1 starter playing heavy minutes, he's had every opportunity to perform. Comparing him to late bloomers who didn't get the same opportunities as him just doesn't make much sense. That's not to say he can't be an outlier but his situation has been not at all comparable to other successful late bloomers.

Scottie's first 4 years in the league he's played 35.4 mpg, 34.8 mpg, 34.9 mpg, 34.1 mpg.

Nash first 4 years: 10.5 mpg, 21.9 mpg, 31.7 mpg, 27.4 mpg
Billups first 4 years: 27.7 mpg, 33.1 mpg, 23.5 mpg, 23.2 mpg
Lowry first 4 years: 17.5 mpg, 25.5 mpg, 21.8 mpg, 24.3 mpg

[PushDaRock]

FWIW, Zach Lowe said in the summer that the Raptors FO truly believes Scottie has the potential to be a top 10 player.

If that is true, then they are very stupid. Far dumber than I was thinking. I hope this is not the case.

I don't think that belief was that ridiculous last summer, it just looks silly now. Realistically he's way underperformed expectations this season at least offensively.

[MEDIC]

Iggy on roids is a pretty damn good winning player. If that's what he tops out to being, you take it and keep adding more. Just like how Kyle was so crucial to winning on the floor. The do it all mentality is what Masai is alluding to and Scottie has those same traits.

Agreed. Like I have said in other threads.......if Iggy & KG had a baby, that is Scottie Barnes. He is somewhere in between those two.

You can't tell.me that player isn't a winning player.

It's a big assumption to characterize Barnes as a better player than Iguodala.

Also, you can't build around Iguodala for exactly the same reason you can't build around OG even though they're both winning players.

Prime Iggy was a better player than Barnes is right now for sure, but Barnes is 4-5 years away from his prime.

I agree with your last comment. I believe Scottie in his prime will be better all aound player than OG & Iggy though. If he isn't, the Raps will still have a hell.of a player.

Building around Scottie is not the same as building around Lebron. Right now, Scotie needs scorers around him. Better scorers than him.

I think people get hung up on the whole term "building around".