Roster is a mess - missed draft picks are part of reason

[Spates]

The old idea that teams need solid play at PG and C to win still holds up.

A star at either position doesn’t guarantee anything, but weakness at one or both of those positions means you’ll likely be mediocre at best.

We don’t have a starting level PG on the roster. We might not have a backup level PG on the roster either, though Shead can hopefully get there.

We have one real C on the roster, and he’s either washed or “just” injured.

This is the bigger problem than a couple less than optimal draft picks, when you shouldn’t expect to bat 1.000 anyway.

Like a lot of Masai’s moves, they’re totally defensible from a value standpoint in isolation, but in combination, in context, there have been a bunch of disasters.

I firmly believe that strong PG would solve a lot of problems. Despite it being a little reductive, I look at many of the rosters we've had since 2022 and think "we be a lot better with a prime Lowry at PG.

Even this season. Swap IQ with 2017 Lowry and we have a very competitive team. The problem is much less drafting than it is too end talent.

Well yeah.. adding a HOF level player to yoru team is obviously going to make you a lot better...

Goddam genius analysis there, bud. Missing the point in favour of farming and-1's is boring.

The inability of the coaching staff and the primary ball handlers to assemble a decent half-court offense will make the vast majority of rookie scale players look underwhelming. I question the value of criticizing drafting when the contracts weighing heavy on the books disappoint. The value of all players is contextual, especially developing role players.

[nikster]

You can make as many excuses for the Raptors management post championship as you want....The facts are Spurs went for the tank and blew it up while the Raptors half assed it....And you can look at the 2 products on the court and the success and you can see who has had the better outcome....Its the Spurs and its not even a conversation....All because the Spurs realized they needed to get new talent in the draft and went for it...We did not and now we are stuck with a overpaid team that will struggle to make the play ins....

And lets not act like there is not a 2026 draft with generational talent in it that we will prolly end up being too far down in the draft again to grab one of the players that could help us change the franchise around and we will end up with another starter/Role player type ....Rinse and repeat...

Not making excuses, just stating the obvious fact that Raptors and Spurs were in completely different situations. When Spurs had the decision to choose between tanking and competing they initially chose competing. It wasn't until all their best players were gone for nothing that they finally decided to tank. The only "tanking" move of significance they made was trading Dejounte Murray. Their roster was otherwise bad enough to be at 14 wins at the next trade deadline.

Nope you are wrong that the Spurs decided to tank because they were in a better position too....Want to know the truth....Spurs are really good at evaluaing drafts and talent in the drafts....They knew Victor was a generational talent years before and they always wanted to tank the year he was getting drafted....They knew this in advance it wasn't some magical thing that fell into place....They were active in trying to get Wemby and it worked out in their favor...

It is true some drafts are worth tanking and some are not worth tanking for....The Wemby draft was worth it , The 2025 draft was worth it (Love CMB but if we tanked hard enough it is possible one of Flagg/VJ is a Raptor)....Just like the 2026 draft would be worth it but yet again we are trying to win with a team that won't win shii...The "It will never be me so why try" mentality will never work in your favor in life or in Basketball.

The Spurs knew there strength was evaluating drafts, yet despite that they decided to compete with Derozan and an aging roster for 3 years (and another after he left)! Make it make sense!

[Clutch0z24]

Not making excuses, just stating the obvious fact that Raptors and Spurs were in completely different situations. When Spurs had the decision to choose between tanking and competing they initially chose competing. It wasn't until all their best players were gone for nothing that they finally decided to tank. The only "tanking" move of significance they made was trading Dejounte Murray. Their roster was otherwise bad enough to be at 14 wins at the next trade deadline.

Nope you are wrong that the Spurs decided to tank because they were in a better position too....Want to know the truth....Spurs are really good at evaluaing drafts and talent in the drafts....They knew Victor was a generational talent years before and they always wanted to tank the year he was getting drafted....They knew this in advance it wasn't some magical thing that fell into place....They were active in trying to get Wemby and it worked out in their favor...

It is true some drafts are worth tanking and some are not worth tanking for....The Wemby draft was worth it , The 2025 draft was worth it (Love CMB but if we tanked hard enough it is possible one of Flagg/VJ is a Raptor)....Just like the 2026 draft would be worth it but yet again we are trying to win with a team that won't win shii...The "It will never be me so why try" mentality will never work in your favor in life or in Basketball.

The Spurs knew there strength was evaluating drafts, yet despite that they decided to compete with Derozan and an aging roster for 3 years (and another after he left)! Make it make sense!

So you are basically clowning the Spurs for doing this but they pivoted when they needed too and now are a future dynasty like a smart team on the other hand praising the Raptors who are still activily doing what you are clowning and have been for years now? with zero success....Make that make sense...

[nikster]

Nope you are wrong that the Spurs decided to tank because they were in a better position too....Want to know the truth....Spurs are really good at evaluaing drafts and talent in the drafts....They knew Victor was a generational talent years before and they always wanted to tank the year he was getting drafted....They knew this in advance it wasn't some magical thing that fell into place....They were active in trying to get Wemby and it worked out in their favor...

It is true some drafts are worth tanking and some are not worth tanking for....The Wemby draft was worth it , The 2025 draft was worth it (Love CMB but if we tanked hard enough it is possible one of Flagg/VJ is a Raptor)....Just like the 2026 draft would be worth it but yet again we are trying to win with a team that won't win shii...The "It will never be me so why try" mentality will never work in your favor in life or in Basketball.

The Spurs knew there strength was evaluating drafts, yet despite that they decided to compete with Derozan and an aging roster for 3 years (and another after he left)! Make it make sense!

So you are basically clowning the Spurs for doing this but on the other hand praising the Raptors who are still activily doing this and have been for years now? ....Make that make sense...

Im not clowning them, but I dont see how you can hold them up as some sort of ideal of tanking when by your own standard they should have been tanking ever since Kawhi demanded out.

All they did was trade Dejounte Murray, its not like they completely tore down a team.

[djsunyc]

i still cant believe we didnt tank for wiggins. if we could only go back in time.

[Clutch0z24]

The Spurs knew there strength was evaluating drafts, yet despite that they decided to compete with Derozan and an aging roster for 3 years (and another after he left)! Make it make sense!

So you are basically clowning the Spurs for doing this but on the other hand praising the Raptors who are still activily doing this and have been for years now? ....Make that make sense...

Im not clowning them, but I dont see how you can hold them up as some sort of ideal of tanking when by your own standard they should have been tanking ever since Kawhi demanded out.

All they did was trade Dejounte Murray, its not like they completely tore down a team.

Idk if you are trolling or just that dense....You do realize Spurs did infact TANK and won by drafting a future dynasty....That is success and ideal for any franchise....Do you advocate for us to continue to try and be a play in team with a DeRozan/Aldridge style of team for 5 more years till 2030 and hope for different results than what we have been getting for 5 years now already?....If so than idk what to tell you but you should just become a fan of a different sport because Raptors will do absolutly nothing in the near future with the mindset you have. Spurs were doing it and pivoted like any smart franchise would do because they knew they were headed no where....The problem is people like you and people who think like you and franchises that think like you end up having years and years of a bad basketball product....Spurs switched it up and now are looking great...

I think its pretty obvious to majority of Raptor fans that this team needs new talent brand new top end talent and where do you find that? We are not making a magic trade for Giannis to save us this time lol....

[Thaddy]

So you are basically clowning the Spurs for doing this but on the other hand praising the Raptors who are still activily doing this and have been for years now? ....Make that make sense...

Im not clowning them, but I dont see how you can hold them up as some sort of ideal of tanking when by your own standard they should have been tanking ever since Kawhi demanded out.

All they did was trade Dejounte Murray, its not like they completely tore down a team.

Idk if you are trolling or just that dense....You do realize Spurs did infact TANK and won by drafting a future dynasty....That is success and ideal for any franchise....Do you advocate for us to continue to try and be a play in team with a DeRozan/Aldridge style of team for 5 more years till 2030 and hope for different results than what we have been getting for 5 years now already?....If so than idk what to tell you but you should just become a fan of a different sport because Raptors will do absolutly nothing in the near future with the mindset you have. Spurs were doing it and pivoted like any smart franchise would do because they knew they were headed no where....The problem is people like you and people who think like you and franchises that think like you end up having years and years of a bad basketball product....Spurs switched it up and now are looking great...

I think its pretty obvious to majority of Raptor fans that this team needs new talent brand new top end talent and where do you find that? We are not making a magic trade for Giannis to save us this time lol....

It would have to be through the assets we have not including Ingram and Barnes. If we win it raises the value of RJ, IQ and Poeltl. Hopefully some of our prospects too.

RJ + IQ + Dick could probably get us Morant and whatever filler they want to include.

[mihaic]

Those two moves in particular set the team back 10-15 years. It sounds ridiculous, I know, but I believe it's that bad.

The worst part is that I think both were orchestrated by our current and recently extended GM.

I say 100 years.

Not getting situational big Walker Kessler is demoralizing for this franchise. We might never recover.

Sorry, but thats just BS. We have seen franchises recover within two years and they were in worse situations.

Our problem right now is not the players we have, but the way we are playing. Against the Cavs it was a step forward, but all in all, we are bad because we play stupid. Its honestly the first time i think its Darko's fault.

I think your sarcasm detector is badly broken. I've noticed it a few times.

[TheGeneral99]

Lol, we are 6 games and you are already declaring CMB a bad pick?

Anyways, the big miss was Flynn in 2021 instead of a guy like Bane.

[Shakril]

I say 100 years.

Not getting situational big Walker Kessler is demoralizing for this franchise. We might never recover.

Sorry, but thats just BS. We have seen franchises recover within two years and they were in worse situations.

Our problem right now is not the players we have, but the way we are playing. Against the Cavs it was a step forward, but all in all, we are bad because we play stupid. Its honestly the first time i think its Darko's fault.

I think your sarcasm detector is badly broken. I've noticed it a few times.

I noticed, people use it as an excuse, when they find out they said something stupid.

Btw, i was referring to the 10-15 years, from the post before, not your 100 years. I just quoted the whole thing.

[Clutch0z24]

Im not clowning them, but I dont see how you can hold them up as some sort of ideal of tanking when by your own standard they should have been tanking ever since Kawhi demanded out.

All they did was trade Dejounte Murray, its not like they completely tore down a team.

Idk if you are trolling or just that dense....You do realize Spurs did infact TANK and won by drafting a future dynasty....That is success and ideal for any franchise....Do you advocate for us to continue to try and be a play in team with a DeRozan/Aldridge style of team for 5 more years till 2030 and hope for different results than what we have been getting for 5 years now already?....If so than idk what to tell you but you should just become a fan of a different sport because Raptors will do absolutly nothing in the near future with the mindset you have. Spurs were doing it and pivoted like any smart franchise would do because they knew they were headed no where....The problem is people like you and people who think like you and franchises that think like you end up having years and years of a bad basketball product....Spurs switched it up and now are looking great...

I think its pretty obvious to majority of Raptor fans that this team needs new talent brand new top end talent and where do you find that? We are not making a magic trade for Giannis to save us this time lol....

It would have to be through the assets we have not including Ingram and Barnes. If we win it raises the value of RJ, IQ and Poeltl. Hopefully some of our prospects too.

RJ + IQ + Dick could probably get us Morant and whatever filler they want to include.

Again we have been saying this since 2021...."We will get KD" "We will get Giannis" "We will get a superstar trade eventually right"

Reality is the chances of a legit game changing player on that level 1. Choosing to come to Toronto via trade are very very low, 2. Us actually winning any trade while other franchises are also putting together offers are slim...

We have been trying to make a trade like that since forever i am sure you are not new to the annual "Toronto are trying to make a trade for a superstar" offseason talks to just end up with nothing...

Fans need to realize even trading for superstars has become a big challenge because these stars have a say in where they are traded to.....We have meh players on bad contracts and they are not worth what they are being paid....Chances are every GM knows this and don't want our garbage....

By default the draft becomes our best chances to succeed if you like it or not that is just reality at this point.

[Thaddy]

Idk if you are trolling or just that dense....You do realize Spurs did infact TANK and won by drafting a future dynasty....That is success and ideal for any franchise....Do you advocate for us to continue to try and be a play in team with a DeRozan/Aldridge style of team for 5 more years till 2030 and hope for different results than what we have been getting for 5 years now already?....If so than idk what to tell you but you should just become a fan of a different sport because Raptors will do absolutly nothing in the near future with the mindset you have. Spurs were doing it and pivoted like any smart franchise would do because they knew they were headed no where....The problem is people like you and people who think like you and franchises that think like you end up having years and years of a bad basketball product....Spurs switched it up and now are looking great...

I think its pretty obvious to majority of Raptor fans that this team needs new talent brand new top end talent and where do you find that? We are not making a magic trade for Giannis to save us this time lol....

It would have to be through the assets we have not including Ingram and Barnes. If we win it raises the value of RJ, IQ and Poeltl. Hopefully some of our prospects too.

RJ + IQ + Dick could probably get us Morant and whatever filler they want to include.

Again we have been saying this since 2021...."We will get KD" "We will get Giannis" "We will get a superstar trade eventually right"

Reality is the chances of a legit game changing player on that level 1. Choosing to come to Toronto via trade are very very low, 2. Us actually winning any trade while other franchises are also putting together offers are slim...

We have been trying to make a trade like that since forever i am sure you are not new to the annual "Toronto are trying to make a trade for a superstar" offseason talks to just end up with nothing...

Fans need to realize even trading for superstars has become a big challenge because these stars have a say in where they are traded to.....We have meh players on bad contracts and they are not worth what they are being paid....Chances are every GM knows this and don't want our garbage....

By default the draft becomes our best chances to succeed if you like it or not that is just reality at this point.

We can probably get Morant now if we want. I think we should jump at it when he's available.

RJ + Agbaji + Dick + Temple + 2027 1st. It works in the trade machine.

Poeltl / Mamu
Barnes / CMB
Ingram / Battle
IQ / Walter
Morant / Shead

We'd have 3-4 potential all stars in the starting line up. Solid prospects off our bench. We'd still have a lot of picks to move forward with too.

We aren't far from becoming contenders in a weak East. It's a matter of when not if. We have a good front office

[mihaic]

Sorry, but thats just BS. We have seen franchises recover within two years and they were in worse situations.

Our problem right now is not the players we have, but the way we are playing. Against the Cavs it was a step forward, but all in all, we are bad because we play stupid. Its honestly the first time i think its Darko's fault.

I think your sarcasm detector is badly broken. I've noticed it a few times.

I noticed, people use it as an excuse, when they find out they said something stupid.

Btw, i was referring to the 10-15 years, from the post before, not your 100 years. I just quoted the whole thing.

The 10-15 was sarcastic I think, and not mine.

[Appostis]

It would have to be through the assets we have not including Ingram and Barnes. If we win it raises the value of RJ, IQ and Poeltl. Hopefully some of our prospects too.

RJ + IQ + Dick could probably get us Morant and whatever filler they want to include.

Again we have been saying this since 2021...."We will get KD" "We will get Giannis" "We will get a superstar trade eventually right"

Reality is the chances of a legit game changing player on that level 1. Choosing to come to Toronto via trade are very very low, 2. Us actually winning any trade while other franchises are also putting together offers are slim...

We have been trying to make a trade like that since forever i am sure you are not new to the annual "Toronto are trying to make a trade for a superstar" offseason talks to just end up with nothing...

Fans need to realize even trading for superstars has become a big challenge because these stars have a say in where they are traded to.....We have meh players on bad contracts and they are not worth what they are being paid....Chances are every GM knows this and don't want our garbage....

By default the draft becomes our best chances to succeed if you like it or not that is just reality at this point.

We can probably get Morant now if we want. I think we should jump at it when he's available.

RJ + Agbaji + Dick + Temple + 2027 1st. It works in the trade machine.

Poeltl / Mamu
Barnes / CMB
Ingram / Battle
IQ / Walter
Morant / Shead

We'd have 3-4 potential all stars in the starting line up. Solid prospects off our bench. We'd still have a lot of picks to move forward with too.

We aren't far from becoming contenders in a weak East. It's a matter of when not if. We have a good front office

If you want a point guard trade, Trae is the move.

Morant fit with this team is awful.

[nikster]

So you are basically clowning the Spurs for doing this but on the other hand praising the Raptors who are still activily doing this and have been for years now? ....Make that make sense...

Im not clowning them, but I dont see how you can hold them up as some sort of ideal of tanking when by your own standard they should have been tanking ever since Kawhi demanded out.

All they did was trade Dejounte Murray, its not like they completely tore down a team.

Idk if you are trolling or just that dense....You do realize Spurs did infact TANK and won by drafting a future dynasty....That is success and ideal for any franchise....Do you advocate for us to continue to try and be a play in team with a DeRozan/Aldridge style of team for 5 more years till 2030 and hope for different results than what we have been getting for 5 years now already?....If so than idk what to tell you but you should just become a fan of a different sport because Raptors will do absolutly nothing in the near future with the mindset you have. Spurs were doing it and pivoted like any smart franchise would do because they knew they were headed no where....The problem is people like you and people who think like you and franchises that think like you end up having years and years of a bad basketball product....Spurs switched it up and now are looking great...

I think its pretty obvious to majority of Raptor fans that this team needs new talent brand new top end talent and where do you find that? We are not making a magic trade for Giannis to save us this time lol....

When they had a real choice between competing and tanking they choose competing. Hence trading for derozan and holding onto him for 3 years until he was 32 while Gay and Aldridge aged out.

The year before the tank Spurs were a 34 win team and only had to get rid of Murray to bottom out. Raptors were coming off a 48 win season and would have had to get rid of multiple contributors to bottom out. Those situations were not remotely similar.

We are not remotely like those derozan/Aldridge spurs because of age, prospects and assets. It's a terrible strawman, are you advocating us becoming the Charlotte Hornets with multiple 20 win season in the least few years with nothing to show for it?

[anotherhomer]

Lol, we are 6 games and you are already declaring CMB a bad pick?

Anyways, the big miss was Flynn in 2021 instead of a guy like Bane.

there's another one too, the flynn pick....

ya missed picks happen, but we missing so many of them

i wouldn't say CMB is a bad pick....is a solid pick at the number 9 position, but it goes to say, raptors are missing so many of these mid picks

[Pointgod]

Im not clowning them, but I dont see how you can hold them up as some sort of ideal of tanking when by your own standard they should have been tanking ever since Kawhi demanded out.

All they did was trade Dejounte Murray, its not like they completely tore down a team.

Idk if you are trolling or just that dense....You do realize Spurs did infact TANK and won by drafting a future dynasty....That is success and ideal for any franchise....Do you advocate for us to continue to try and be a play in team with a DeRozan/Aldridge style of team for 5 more years till 2030 and hope for different results than what we have been getting for 5 years now already?....If so than idk what to tell you but you should just become a fan of a different sport because Raptors will do absolutly nothing in the near future with the mindset you have. Spurs were doing it and pivoted like any smart franchise would do because they knew they were headed no where....The problem is people like you and people who think like you and franchises that think like you end up having years and years of a bad basketball product....Spurs switched it up and now are looking great...

I think its pretty obvious to majority of Raptor fans that this team needs new talent brand new top end talent and where do you find that? We are not making a magic trade for Giannis to save us this time lol....

When they had a real choice between competing and tanking they choose competing. Hence trading for derozan and holding onto him for 3 years until he was 32 while Gay and Aldridge aged out.

The year before the tank Spurs were a 34 win team and only had to get rid of Murray to bottom out. Raptors were coming off a 48 win season and would have had to get rid of multiple contributors to bottom out. Those situations were not remotely similar.

We are not remotely like those derozan/Aldridge spurs because of age, prospects and assets. It's a terrible strawman, are you advocating us becoming the Charlotte Hornets with multiple 20 win season in the least few years with nothing to show for it?

The Spurs were a play-in team the previous two seasons before 2022/2023. They let go of Derozan, Aldridge, Rudy Gay, and some vets and won 1 more game the following season even after they traded Derrick that same season. Dejounte Murray was coming off an allstar season when they traded him for peanuts. To say they weren’t purposely tanking is inaccurate because they did everything they could to be bad including trading Poeltl to us for a steal in the 2023 season.

By contrast in that same season we were a below average team.500 team that could have done what the Spurs did and tanked but we decided to try to win only to be eliminated from the play-in it what has to been the most embarrassing fashion in NBA history.

Clutch is right in this case.

[nikster]

Idk if you are trolling or just that dense....You do realize Spurs did infact TANK and won by drafting a future dynasty....That is success and ideal for any franchise....Do you advocate for us to continue to try and be a play in team with a DeRozan/Aldridge style of team for 5 more years till 2030 and hope for different results than what we have been getting for 5 years now already?....If so than idk what to tell you but you should just become a fan of a different sport because Raptors will do absolutly nothing in the near future with the mindset you have. Spurs were doing it and pivoted like any smart franchise would do because they knew they were headed no where....The problem is people like you and people who think like you and franchises that think like you end up having years and years of a bad basketball product....Spurs switched it up and now are looking great...

I think its pretty obvious to majority of Raptor fans that this team needs new talent brand new top end talent and where do you find that? We are not making a magic trade for Giannis to save us this time lol....

When they had a real choice between competing and tanking they choose competing. Hence trading for derozan and holding onto him for 3 years until he was 32 while Gay and Aldridge aged out.

The year before the tank Spurs were a 34 win team and only had to get rid of Murray to bottom out. Raptors were coming off a 48 win season and would have had to get rid of multiple contributors to bottom out. Those situations were not remotely similar.

We are not remotely like those derozan/Aldridge spurs because of age, prospects and assets. It's a terrible strawman, are you advocating us becoming the Charlotte Hornets with multiple 20 win season in the least few years with nothing to show for it?

The Spurs were a play-in team the previous two seasons before 2022/2023. They let go of Derozan, Aldridge, Rudy Gay, and some vets and won 1 more game the following season even after they traded Derrick that same season. Dejounte Murray was coming off an allstar season when they traded him for peanuts. To say they weren’t purposely tanking is inaccurate because they did everything they could to be bad including trading Poeltl to us for a steal in the 2023 season.

By contrast in that same season we were a below average team.500 team that could have done what the Spurs did and tanked but we decided to try to win only to be eliminated from the play-in it what has to been the most embarrassing fashion in NBA history.

Clutch is right in this case.

That's basically what I said. Gay and Aldridge aged out, they held on to Derozan too long and got little for him. They didn't seriously pivot to tank until the Murray on a roster pretty devoid of talent. That was enough for them to be at 14 wins at the trade deadline, while the Raptors even with their disaster of a season were at 26 wins. At the time of the poeltl trade I think it was too late for a realistic shot at Wemby

[YogurtProducer]

So your solution to this is "We will never have a chance so why try" If the Spurs had the same thought process as you they would not be where they are right now....If you are not having any success in low lotto picks, And you are not having luck on the trade market for 5+ years i think its time to switch it up?

No, you are just assuming my stance since it doesn't 100% align with yours

You compare the Raptors now to the Lowry/DD Raptors....Difference was that Raptors team was competitive and could actually beat good teams on any given night at that time....This Raptors team will beat up on injured/tanking teams to be a 35 win team on the season and draft another role player in the late teens expecting different results...

Read my guy. I am comparing them to the 2009-2013 Raptors.

We have been TRYING your way of team building for 5 years now to horrible results in over paying meh players and still losing when trying to be good....Time to change things up i think and try to draft more blue chippers with high end draft picks since the other way has been wasting years and years of being a good product on the court and to watch.

This current era of Raptors basketball has not even been 2 years, let alone 5. 5 years ago we were just coming off a loss to BOS in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

You ever heard of the saying "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results," Thats basically you and what this Front office has been doing for years now.

Sure man.

[YogurtProducer]

I firmly believe that strong PG would solve a lot of problems. Despite it being a little reductive, I look at many of the rosters we've had since 2022 and think "we be a lot better with a prime Lowry at PG.

Even this season. Swap IQ with 2017 Lowry and we have a very competitive team. The problem is much less drafting than it is too end talent.

Well yeah.. adding a HOF level player to yoru team is obviously going to make you a lot better...

Goddam genius analysis there, bud. Missing the point in favour of farming and-1's is boring.

The inability of the coaching staff and the primary ball handlers to assemble a decent half-court offense will make the vast majority of rookie scale players look underwhelming. I question the value of criticizing drafting when the contracts weighing heavy on the books disappoint. The value of all players is contextual, especially developing role players.

Ah yeah, and you just casually saying "add a HOF palyer and we are competitive" is so much better of analysis

Why hasn't the front office thought of that? Why don't they just go get the best player in our teams history? are they stupid?