Raptors @ Hawks | Friday Nov 7th 730 EST | TSN

[YogurtProducer]

I'm sorry but from all my experience watching and playing ball, Ochai has "fake shooter" written all over him. He's the guy that can hit open corner 3's at a low clip and that makes his 3PT% appear good but when you watch him, he isn't super confident in his shot and basically only will shoot it if he's on an island. Any sort of contest and his misses are WAY off.

Explain how he shot 38% on above the break 3's literally last year then.

He also shot 42% wide open, and 35% "open" (defender within 4-6 feet). If you want a guy who shoots 40+% from tight defence, you are paying $15m or more for it. Christian Braun just got $25M to hit open 3's lol

He's similar to Issac Okoro to me in the sense that both were technically 39%+ 3pT shooters, but I wouldn't feel comfortable letting Ochai take 8-10 3's in a game if left open and he probably would start passing up looks after a few misses as well. Versus a hypothetical playoff defense, Ochai isn't going to be getting wide open looks and his % fall off a cliff if anyone is within 6 feet of him.

I mean, how many teams have multiple guys you feel comfortable taking 8+ threes a game?

Okoro was a key rotation piece on a 60+ win team a year ago and is playign 24mpg on the 6-1 Bulls. Okoro has a spot in the NBA because good teams need guys who just play a role.

He also can't dribble or playmake so the ceiling is actually super low

Y'all do realize someone has to be a role player for your team... right? Like someone needs to just play defence and hit open 3's. SOMEONE has to be in the corner when Ingram is iso-ing. Not everyone on your roster is going to be an all-league defender, and a 40% sniper. Those guys cost $30M+ a year.

I'm prioritizing other guys and looking to trade Ochai for a backup big

Sure, I agree. But that doesn't make anything else you say relevant.

[everdiso]

Eh he was a rotation player on a bad team when he was shooting 40% from 3.

So? Shooting 40% from 3 in a season is legitimately impressive, especially on bad teams where you might not as many opens look as you would on a good one.

He probably is not a 40% guy, but he was 37% in college and is 35% in the NBA so he is still a positive shooter. FWIW - Walter was a 34% college guy

Honestly all i see here is another McCaw. Length and effort on D without actually being good. McCaw couldn't shoot any but he could handle a bit and Ochai can;t.

Hate Ochai all you want - but McCaw is a really, really bad comp.

McCaw was a horrible shooter (so already the offensive side is a bad example), and was probably similar-ish to Agbaji on D. McCaw with a 3 is a good NBA role player. McCaW was already otu of the league at 25. Agabji will be here for another 5+ years

Yeah but mccaw could handle the ball a bit. Agbaji is nothing on offense other than a spot up shooter.

[YogurtProducer]

Eh he was a rotation player on a bad team when he was shooting 40% from 3.

So? Shooting 40% from 3 in a season is legitimately impressive, especially on bad teams where you might not as many opens look as you would on a good one.

He probably is not a 40% guy, but he was 37% in college and is 35% in the NBA so he is still a positive shooter. FWIW - Walter was a 34% college guy

Honestly all i see here is another McCaw. Length and effort on D without actually being good. McCaw couldn't shoot any but he could handle a bit and Ochai can;t.

Hate Ochai all you want - but McCaw is a really, really bad comp.

McCaw was a horrible shooter (so already the offensive side is a bad example), and was probably similar-ish to Agbaji on D. McCaw with a 3 is a good NBA role player. McCaW was already otu of the league at 25. Agabji will be here for another 5+ years

Yeah but mccaw could handle the ball a bit. Agbaji is nothing on offense other than a spot up shooter.

And Agbaji is a better player because a spot up shooter is way valuable to an nba offence than "handling the ball a bit"

McCaw got waived twice before coming to Toronto for a reason. No one else picked him after after that either... for a reason.

[MoneyBall]

No, I used Ingrams entire career including his 18 game last year (which easily can be taken with a grain of salt, considering he was definitely able to play last year and was held out for trade purpose (NOP) and a tank purpose (TOR)), and only used Bane for 3 years because that is when his injuries picked up.

If you are going to argue, at least read my post in full.

Yes, you're comparing different sample sizes for each player, that's literally the problem lol. Now do Ingram's last 3 years vs Bane's last 3 years. Or career vs career.

Why don't we do first 5 years vs first 5 years? Oh, because it works out to 313 games a piece and hurts your argument.

Like I said, there is legitimate reasons to alter the data points (if you read my posts, you'd understand why).

Why don't we compare only the first 5 years of each player's career to determine who's a higher injury risk today? Is that a serious question?! Ingram's been in the league for 10 years lol. This is obviously disingenuous.

You keep arguing in bad faith and I'm frankly done with it.

[YogurtProducer]

Yes, you're comparing different sample sizes for each player, that's literally the problem lol. Now do Ingram's last 3 years vs Bane's last 3 years. Or career vs career.

Why don't we do first 5 years vs first 5 years? Oh, because it works out to 313 games a piece and hurts your argument.

Like I said, there is legitimate reasons to alter the data points (if you read my posts, you'd understand why).

Why don't we compare only the first 5 years of each player's career to determine who's a higher injury risk today? Is that a serious question?! Ingram's been in the league for 10 years lol. This is obviously disingenuous.

You keep arguing in bad faith and I'm frankly done with it.

It is not in bad faith.

I literally used Ingrams entire career to begin with as he has had injury problems from day 1, and compared to Bane's last 3 years. Bane in recent memory has been JUST AS INJURY PRONE AS INGRAM HAS BEEN SINCE DAY 1. Again, guys are not injury prone, and then suddenly they are. It happens all the time. Guys typically get less resilient as they age.

if you can't figure out why Ingrams 18 games last year is not an outlier and was done more-so by the teams that had him, and less to do with him actually being hurt well... I can't help you there.

You just didn't like the answer I gave.

[everdiso]

So? Shooting 40% from 3 in a season is legitimately impressive, especially on bad teams where you might not as many opens look as you would on a good one.

He probably is not a 40% guy, but he was 37% in college and is 35% in the NBA so he is still a positive shooter. FWIW - Walter was a 34% college guy


Hate Ochai all you want - but McCaw is a really, really bad comp.

McCaw was a horrible shooter (so already the offensive side is a bad example), and was probably similar-ish to Agbaji on D. McCaw with a 3 is a good NBA role player. McCaW was already otu of the league at 25. Agabji will be here for another 5+ years

Yeah but mccaw could handle the ball a bit. Agbaji is nothing on offense other than a spot up shooter.

And Agbaji is a better player because a spot up shooter is way valuable to an nba offence than "handling the ball a bit"

McCaw got waived twice before coming to Toronto for a reason. No one else picked him after after that either... for a reason.

and agbaji, with his lottery pick contract has already been used twice as contract ballast as the least valuable part of two trades.

[HumbleRen]

Jakobe can do everything Ochai can. I don’t know why people are hanged up on Ochai.

He takes the easiest shots on the team and is a slightly above average defender on wings. That’s very replaceable lol.

Really? Why hasn't he then?

If Ochai takes such easy shots, anyone should be able to stroll into the lineup and shoot 39.9% from 3.

He’s shot above league average from the 3 ONCE in his entire career. Am I supposed to expect him to shoot 40% from the 3 as the norm? I’ll believe it when I see it.

As of right now? Ochai is on an expiring deal and is currently shooting less than 10% from the 3 on wide open shots and is getting less than 15 minutes a night. He’s not a priority for our team in the now or future.

[SFour]

I'm sorry but from all my experience watching and playing ball, Ochai has "fake shooter" written all over him. He's the guy that can hit open corner 3's at a low clip and that makes his 3PT% appear good but when you watch him, he isn't super confident in his shot and basically only will shoot it if he's on an island. Any sort of contest and his misses are WAY off.

He's similar to Issac Okoro to me in the sense that both were technically 39%+ 3pT shooters, but I wouldn't feel comfortable letting Ochai take 8-10 3's in a game if left open and he probably would start passing up looks after a few misses as well. Versus a hypothetical playoff defense, Ochai isn't going to be getting wide open looks and his % fall off a cliff if anyone is within 6 feet of him. He also can't dribble or playmake so the ceiling is actually super low

I'm prioritizing other guys and looking to trade Ochai for a backup big

I don't think many people would classify him as a shooter, he's a 3+D guy, and those types of players shoot mainly corners 3s...and it's 4-5 per game, no one expects 8-10 shots from these types of role players....that amount of 3pt shots is reserved for players like Curry.

I'm not against trading Ochai as long as they can get value out of it.....I would be mad if they traded him for peanuts

[YogurtProducer]

He’s shot above league average from the 3 ONCE in his entire career. Am I supposed to expect him to shoot 40% from the 3 as the norm? I’ll believe it when I see it.

Well he shot 35.55 as a rookie (which is so close to league average, it really is not worth trying to argue that it was 0.4% below current league average lol), had a bad sophomore year, and had a great third season. For all things considered, he has been about 35% which is a fine shooter in todays league.

It is very important to remember that the "league average 3pt%" and what an "average" shooter are two different things. The league average % is skewed to the top (only 112 qualifying players are "above average" in 2024-25). Being an "average" shooter still means you are a top 5 shooter on most NBA teams. There IS value in that.

As of right now? Ochai is on an expiring deal and is currently shooting less than 10% from the 3 on wide open shots and is getting less than 15 minutes a night. He’s not a priority for our team in the now or future.

Anyone using this years 3pt% is just arguing in bad faith. That is a whopping 11 attempts man. Give your head a shale.

And good observation. The entire conversation is about Agbaji not being played and I suggesting that is a mistake. I would honestly bet that between Dick, Agbaji, and Walter, it is not that crazy to look back in a decade and say Agbaji was the best player of the trio. Us giving up and "not making him a part of the future" because he is 25 and not 20 would be stupid.

We gotta flip one of them. I don't really care which one it is as none are game changers anyway. I just like the one who is at least has a useable skill on both ends of the floor.

and agbaji, with his lottery pick contract has already been used twice as contract ballast as the least valuable part of two trades.

Come on bruh. He was not used as a contract ballast by Cleveland and Utah he was traded as a lottery pick who had 0 NBA game experience in order for CLE to acquire an all-nba talent.

[Raps in 4]

Eh he was a rotation player on a bad team when he was shooting 40% from 3.

So? Shooting 40% from 3 in a season is legitimately impressive, especially on bad teams where you might not as many opens look as you would on a good one.

He probably is not a 40% guy, but he was 37% in college and is 35% in the NBA so he is still a positive shooter. FWIW - Walter was a 34% college guy

Honestly all i see here is another McCaw. Length and effort on D without actually being good. McCaw couldn't shoot any but he could handle a bit and Ochai can;t.

Hate Ochai all you want - but McCaw is a really, really bad comp.

McCaw was a horrible shooter (so already the offensive side is a bad example), and was probably similar-ish to Agbaji on D. McCaw with a 3 is a good NBA role player. McCaW was already otu of the league at 25. Agabji will be here for another 5+ years

Yeah but mccaw could handle the ball a bit. Agbaji is nothing on offense other than a spot up shooter.

McCaw was a bottom-5 player in the NBA.

[HumbleRen]

He’s shot above league average from the 3 ONCE in his entire career. Am I supposed to expect him to shoot 40% from the 3 as the norm? I’ll believe it when I see it.

Well he shot 35.55 as a rookie (which is so close to league average, it really is not worth trying to argue that it was 0.4% below current league average lol), had a bad sophomore year, and had a great third season. For all things considered, he has been about 35% which is a fine shooter in todays league.

It is very important to remember that the "league average 3pt%" and what an "average" shooter are two different things. The league average % is skewed to the top (only 112 qualifying players are "above average" in 2024-25). Being an "average" shooter still means you are a top 5 shooter on most NBA teams. There IS value in that.

As of right now? Ochai is on an expiring deal and is currently shooting less than 10% from the 3 on wide open shots and is getting less than 15 minutes a night. He’s not a priority for our team in the now or future.

Anyone using this years 3pt% is just arguing in bad faith. That is a whopping 11 attempts man. Give your head a shale.

And good observation. The entire conversation is about Agbaji not being played and I suggesting that is a mistake. I would honestly bet that between Dick, Agbaji, and Walter, it is not that crazy to look back in a decade and say Agbaji was the best player of the trio. Us giving up and "not making him a part of the future" because he is 25 and not 20 would be stupid.

We gotta flip one of them. I don't really care which one it is as none are game changers anyway. I just like the one who is at least has a useable skill on both ends of the floor.

GD is a better shooter than him, Jakobe is a better defender than him(imo). It’s not hard to see why the FO is prioritizing them over Ochai if Ochai continues to play badly.

They didn’t extend him for a reason after having a good season paper last year. They aren’t fooled by him shooting 40% on the easiest shots possible.

[everdiso]

So? Shooting 40% from 3 in a season is legitimately impressive, especially on bad teams where you might not as many opens look as you would on a good one.

He probably is not a 40% guy, but he was 37% in college and is 35% in the NBA so he is still a positive shooter. FWIW - Walter was a 34% college guy


Hate Ochai all you want - but McCaw is a really, really bad comp.

McCaw was a horrible shooter (so already the offensive side is a bad example), and was probably similar-ish to Agbaji on D. McCaw with a 3 is a good NBA role player. McCaW was already otu of the league at 25. Agabji will be here for another 5+ years

Yeah but mccaw could handle the ball a bit. Agbaji is nothing on offense other than a spot up shooter.

McCaw was a bottom-5 player in the NBA.

oh yeah he was terrible for sure. believe me he was a personal nightmare to me, i'm never saying he wasn't terrible.


Career

Agbaji (22-25): 209gms, 22.5mpg, -2.1obm, -0.6dbpm, -2.7bpm
McCaw (21-25): 199gms, 16.0mpg, -3.6obpm, +0.8dbpm, -2.8bpm

[dballislife]

gradey and walter can drive it and kick it better than ochai and shoot it better so they should be playing...but its good to know we have 3 consistent bench pieces in cmb, mamu, and shead

[everdiso]

gradey and walter can drive it and kick it better than ochai and shoot it better so they should be playing...but its good to know we have 3 consistent bench pieces in cmb, mamu, and shead

And one reliable pure shooter in Battle too.

[ImaBeatDatAzz]

gradey and walter can drive it and kick it better than ochai and shoot it better so they should be playing...but its good to know we have 3 consistent bench pieces in cmb, mamu, and shead

And one reliable pure shooter in Battle too.

Yep this team deeep. Giannis would take this team to a chip

I still think Scottie + Ochai + Walter + picks gets it done (if Giannis goes on the market)

IQ/Shead
RJ/Dick/Lawson
Ingram/Battle
Giannis/CMB or Mamu
Poeltl/Mamu or CMB

[Shakril]

gradey and walter can drive it and kick it better than ochai and shoot it better so they should be playing...but its good to know we have 3 consistent bench pieces in cmb, mamu, and shead

And one reliable pure shooter in Battle too.

Yep this team deeep. Giannis would take this team to a chip

I still think Scottie + Ochai + Walter + picks gets it done (if Giannis goes on the market)

IQ/Shead
RJ/Dick/Lawson
Ingram/Battle
Giannis/CMB or Mamu
Poeltl/Mamu or CMB

No it wouldnt cause Rockets, Spurs and Knicks can beat the offer easily. And thats just the teams i have in my head right now. Pretty sure there are others. If we want Giannis, it will be more than just those 3 players and some picks.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Explain how he shot 38% on above the break 3's literally last year then.

Because he took less than 30 from each of the wings and (8/24 on the left wing and 13/27 on the right wing) and was 17/39 from the very top over the season of 65 games played were he STARTED a lot of them. About 1.5 shots/game from above the break and we know from tracking data he only took the far majority of his 3pt shots with a defender at least 4 ft away, with the majority of them being with defenders 6ft away, and in a C&S situations and not off the dribble. Unless he's being contested by Mikal Bridges or Wemby all the time, he's getting pretty good looks and barely taking them.

For reference, JKW played 12 fewer games and averaged 6 fewer minutes and still put up more 3s from above the break than Ochai did. Not expecting great %s as a rookie, but if JKW could generate that many looks with low usage, Ochai was definitely just passing up looks.

He also shot 42% wide open, and 35% "open" (defender within 4-6 feet). If you want a guy who shoots 40+% from tight defence, you are paying $15m or more for it. Christian Braun just got $25M to hit open 3's lol

I don't need someone to shoot with a defender in his face, I need someone comfortable shooting with a defender closing out (open range). Ochai barely does that given his 3pt volume. Isaiah Joe fits the description of what I'm looking for and makes 12 million a year. He also takes 3s at a much higher volume. Divincenzo makes 11 million a year and is the same thing as well. This isn't an exhaustive list, just the first few names that popped into my head the second I read your comment; just went to go look at their stats to confirm if their stats matched the eye test and they are comfortably guys that can both shoot and dribble and defend

I mean, how many teams have multiple guys you feel comfortable taking 8+ threes a game?

Okoro was a key rotation piece on a 60+ win team a year ago and is playign 24mpg on the 6-1 Bulls. Okoro has a spot in the NBA because good teams need guys who just play a role.

I don't think the Bulls are going to be winning at this current pace so I'm not sure what the relevancy is there. Okoro was the most expendable piece of that team and his playoff numbers were a glaring reason why. I'm looking forward in time to which guys will be valuable in a playoff rotation and don't want guys who will only take wide open shots at volume but hesitate to take 'open' ones and when they do, its at low volume at a below league average %. This guys get exposed and are unplayable in the playoffs.

Y'all do realize someone has to be a role player for your team... right? Like someone needs to just play defence and hit open 3's. SOMEONE has to be in the corner when Ingram is iso-ing. Not everyone on your roster is going to be an all-league defender, and a 40% sniper. Those guys cost $30M+ a year.

Again the two guys I listed above make less than 12 million a year coming off the bench for their teams. You're using hyperbole because no one mentioned all league defense and being Steph curry. Just because Braun and Keegan Murray and IQ got overpaid doesn't mean that's the going rate for guys moving forward. Aaron Wiggins is another example of a combo guard that can do more than only take wide open 3's and has some on ball ability while shooting 38%+ from 3.....makes less than 11 million with a declining contract. Ajay Mitchell who they just drafted has also looked better than Ochai and is on a rookie deal. I say that to say.....

I'm prioritizing other guys and looking to trade Ochai for a backup big

Dude is a 3-4th string guard who only has no guard skills and were talking about him like he's a rare player or something. He's been taken out of the rotation and hasn't been missed at all

[YogurtProducer]

Explain how he shot 38% on above the break 3's literally last year then.

Because he took less than 30 from each of the wings and (8/24 on the left wing and 13/27 on the right wing) and was 17/39 from the very top over the season of 65 games played were he STARTED a lot of them. About 1.5 shots/game from above the break and we know from tracking data he only took the far majority of his 3pt shots with a defender at least 4 ft away, with the majority of them being with defenders 6ft away, and in a C&S situations and not off the dribble. Unless he's being contested by Mikal Bridges or Wemby all the time, he's getting pretty good looks and barely taking them.

For reference, JKW played 12 fewer games and averaged 6 fewer minutes and still put up more 3s from above the break than Ochai did. Not expecting great %s as a rookie, but if JKW could generate that many looks with low usage, Ochai was definitely just passing up looks.

He also shot 42% wide open, and 35% "open" (defender within 4-6 feet). If you want a guy who shoots 40+% from tight defence, you are paying $15m or more for it. Christian Braun just got $25M to hit open 3's lol

I don't need someone to shoot with a defender in his face, I need someone comfortable shooting with a defender closing out (open range). Ochai barely does that given his 3pt volume. Isaiah Joe fits the description of what I'm looking for and makes 12 million a year. He also takes 3s at a much higher volume. Divincenzo makes 11 million a year and is the same thing as well. This isn't an exhaustive list, just the first few names that popped into my head the second I read your comment; just went to go look at their stats to confirm if their stats matched the eye test and they are comfortably guys that can both shoot and dribble and defend

I mean, how many teams have multiple guys you feel comfortable taking 8+ threes a game?

Okoro was a key rotation piece on a 60+ win team a year ago and is playign 24mpg on the 6-1 Bulls. Okoro has a spot in the NBA because good teams need guys who just play a role.

I don't think the Bulls are going to be winning at this current pace so I'm not sure what the relevancy is there. Okoro was the most expendable piece of that team and his playoff numbers were a glaring reason why. I'm looking forward in time to which guys will be valuable in a playoff rotation and don't want guys who will only take wide open shots at volume but hesitate to take 'open' ones and when they do, its at low volume at a below league average %. This guys get exposed and are unplayable in the playoffs.

Y'all do realize someone has to be a role player for your team... right? Like someone needs to just play defence and hit open 3's. SOMEONE has to be in the corner when Ingram is iso-ing. Not everyone on your roster is going to be an all-league defender, and a 40% sniper. Those guys cost $30M+ a year.

Again the two guys I listed above make less than 12 million a year coming off the bench for their teams. You're using hyperbole because no one mentioned all league defense and being Steph curry. Just because Braun and Keegan Murray and IQ got overpaid doesn't mean that's the going rate for guys moving forward. Aaron Wiggins is another example of a combo guard that can do more than only take wide open 3's and has some on ball ability while shooting 38%+ from 3.....makes less than 11 million with a declining contract. Ajay Mitchell who they just drafted has also looked better than Ochai and is on a rookie deal. I say that to say.....

I'm prioritizing other guys and looking to trade Ochai for a backup big

Dude is a 3-4th string guard who only has no guard skills and were talking about him like he's a rare player or something. He's been taken out of the rotation and hasn't been missed at all

On the free agent market Donte took a 4-year MLE, and in a couple years is going to get absolute bank. Obviously I’d prefer Donte over really any of our 2-guards, but it’s not feasible. Hes going to sign like a 4/100 deal.

Joe is also one of the better 3 point specialists in the league, but he’s a liability on defence.

I’d rather have Giannis and KD instead of Barnes and Ingram as well. Maybe swap IQ for Curry and Poeltl for Holmgren? Why didn’t we just think of getting better players?

It’s like you haven’t read the things I’ve posted at all and are completely missing the point.

[YogurtProducer]

[quote="HumbleRen"
GD is a better shooter than him, Jakobe is a better defender than him(imo). It’s not hard to see why the FO is prioritizing them over Ochai if Ochai continues to play badly.

They didn’t extend him for a reason after having a good season paper last year. They aren’t fooled by him shooting 40% on the easiest shots possible.[/quote]
And Ochai is the best 2-way player as Dick is garbage on D, and Walter is garbage on O.

My personal preference off the bench is Ochai + Battle as that’s a better defensive / shooting combo than Dick / Walter. I’d be looking to move Dick while he has some value for a big cause he probably still has that “potential” tag we could cash out on. Walter has 2-way potential so I would still work on that, but IMO he should be in the 905 right now.

Agbaji’s next deal is gonna be fairly inexpensive anyways. Not to worried about him being a FA this year. It would actually be good to get him locked up on a MLE deal or even possibly less like a 4/40.

[MiamiSPX]

And one reliable pure shooter in Battle too.

Yep this team deeep. Giannis would take this team to a chip

I still think Scottie + Ochai + Walter + picks gets it done (if Giannis goes on the market)

IQ/Shead
RJ/Dick/Lawson
Ingram/Battle
Giannis/CMB or Mamu
Poeltl/Mamu or CMB

No it wouldnt cause Rockets, Spurs and Knicks can beat the offer easily. And thats just the teams i have in my head right now. Pretty sure there are others. If we want Giannis, it will be more than just those 3 players and some picks.

There is also the small detail of Giannis never agreeing to go to Toronto. Even all Bucks fans agree that if he does get traded, it will absolutely be to a city he wants to go to and approves. Toronto won't be on that list, and wouldn't be even if Masai was still there.